October 25, 2022 11:12 am at 11:12 am #2132305
Granted, there is room for concern that if a good candidate is elected and promptly drops dead, if the replacement ain’t the original.
But the level of questions and skepticism aimed at candidate demanding they defend their physical health or stating they’re too old is very distasteful and extremely antithetical to Torah values. [I’m obviously not referring to someone’s mental abilities.]
It points to that the worry isn’t so much that there might need be a bad replacement [which BTW isn’t so common, anyway, because a good candidate should be picking a good running mate. (In the case of president, anyway)] but that the physical weakness of the candidate repulses them, something charachterisitic of Nazism.October 25, 2022 4:24 pm at 4:24 pm #2132372lakewhutParticipant
A stroke and senility are not what you want from a senator or president. Both clearly can’t complete a sentence in public without a script.October 25, 2022 4:24 pm at 4:24 pm #2132374lakewhutParticipant
When Reagan was running thats what the Democrats ran on in 84, questioning his age.October 25, 2022 4:24 pm at 4:24 pm #2132378
Sorry but being elected in a democracy is not a “torah value”, its a American value and its ok if it factors into who you want to vote for, my first vote was for Ronald Reagan, and it was a great choiceOctober 25, 2022 7:15 pm at 7:15 pm #2132443ujmParticipant
What if the candidate has a reduced mental capacity, such as Joe Biden’s senility, shouldn’t that be a legitimate issue?October 25, 2022 7:22 pm at 7:22 pm #2132464GadolhadorahParticipant
I recall several times over the years where there were those who questioned whether an elderly rav might not have fullyunderstood the questions and factual predicates surrounding an issue before a psak or kol koreh was issued in his name. There were insinuations of dementia or manipulation by his gaboim. Yet, we do NOT have age limits or mandatory retirement rules for our gadolim or roshei yeshivos. I would submit that their responsibilities to the tzibur are no less significant than our those of our elected offiicals.October 25, 2022 10:23 pm at 10:23 pm #21325091Participant
If a Rov has alzheimers, he will no longer give psak. When someone learns Torah every day of their life, at that age, they know so much that it’s in their memory. Gedolei Yisroel in their 90s don’t slip unlike Biden. It’s clear that Biden can’t complete a sentence and only sounds coherent when he’s very prepared and has the script in front of him. What a false equivalency but not unexpected by a Democrat Feminist like you.October 25, 2022 10:26 pm at 10:26 pm #2132512
“Sorry but being elected in a democracy is not a “torah value”, its a American value” What on earth are you talking about? Did i mention that getting elected is a torah value?
“What if the candidate has a reduced mental capacity, such as Joe Biden’s senility, shouldn’t that be a legitimate issue?”
Sure, reduced mental capacity, e.g. inability to read and/or comprehend, is certainly a legitimate issue.October 25, 2022 11:01 pm at 11:01 pm #2132535
@participant, here is your quote “But the level of questions and skepticism aimed at candidate demanding they defend their physical health or stating they’re too old is very distasteful and extremely antithetical to Torah values.”
What does torah values have to with an electablityOctober 26, 2022 10:51 am at 10:51 am #2132636smerelParticipant
Questioning whether a candidate has the mental or physical strength for office it totally OK. Mocking them for their apparent lack of it Is totally not OK. But mocking them for ANYTHING is not OK. Why pick on health? Calling Trump supporters “cultists” is also not OK. Etc.October 26, 2022 10:53 am at 10:53 am #2132650akupermaParticipant
1. In the UK, if the Head of State (who has minimal political importance) can be replaced by a regent, which under current law would not be a problem. The Head of Government not only tend to be younger (than American presidents) but are very easy to replace (since, in theory, they serve at the pleasure of the monarch, so with approval of the majority party, they can be replaced if disabled).
2. The United States combined Head of State with Head of Government, and we have no easy way of replacing a disabled president (other than with the vice-president, which itself raises problems. There is no provision for a special election. And the US tends to elect only someone who is well established (and therefore old). And since American president is Head of Government, he has manage the government on a day to day basis. So it is reasonable that many Americans are concerned that both parties seem to be oriented towards nominating presidential candidates who are well past their “sell by” dates.October 26, 2022 3:34 pm at 3:34 pm #2132785
@commonsaychel your suggestion that since the election is not a Torah value, an attitude toward a potential candidate can’t be antithetical to Torah values is rather illogical. Would u say the same thing ifI said that whoever votes specifically for a candidate who is a murderer, as they like murderers, is antithetical to Torah values?October 26, 2022 5:13 pm at 5:13 pm #2132811
I vote a person who would do a competent job not based on his health concerns, however if his health would affect his ablity, it would factor in and that is ajudgment call not a torah valueOctober 26, 2022 11:39 pm at 11:39 pm #2132885
i regret wasting my time responding to you. I had assumed “commonsaychel” possessed seichel; sadly you have the common lack thereof.October 26, 2022 11:40 pm at 11:40 pm #2132892
People generally continue growing in their mental abilities until they reach the peak and then start going down. Age of the peak varies greatly. Many achieve at 20, but others are growing into their 90s.
So, for a politician any age past 50 may be a time of decline and by 80, they are a danger to the world, while a talmid chacham is still on the way to the peak and may refuse a position (yet). Just has this in the end of Ketubot – a Tanna refusing to become Rosh Yeshiva in favor of an (even) older colleague and taking it after the death of the older one.October 27, 2022 8:10 am at 8:10 am #2132904
@AAQ, so your point is? to nominate Rav Kolter to be Mayor of Lakewood? or Rav Edelstein to be Mayor of Jerusalem?October 27, 2022 8:46 am at 8:46 am #2132950pekakParticipant
Would you ride on a bus with a blind driver? Would you worry about his feelings?October 27, 2022 5:35 pm at 5:35 pm #2133146
I reread my post several times and it is quite clear. Quite stunning and horrifying how utterly stupid these posters who can’t comprehend it is.October 27, 2022 5:53 pm at 5:53 pm #2133148
are.October 28, 2022 2:24 am at 2:24 am #2133227philosopherParticipant
Participant, it is absurd that you are ok with having a president, or anyone in office, who does not posses the adequate mental capabilities to serve the in the capacity that their job entails.October 28, 2022 9:30 am at 9:30 am #2133236
It is beyond absurd–quite very sad, actually–that yet another poster can’t comprehend what he reads.October 28, 2022 12:58 pm at 12:58 pm #2133314
common, a good question. Possibly R Kotler’s talents will be wasted on being a mayor, and possibly he will not be succcessful at that! R Soloveichik talks that Jewish community evolves around teachers, not politicians. So, you just to need to expect less of politicians, and try to elect those who are helpful both for out klal and humanity in general.October 28, 2022 4:08 pm at 4:08 pm #2133366Avram in MDParticipant
“I reread my post several times and it is quite clear. Quite stunning and horrifying how utterly stupid these posters who can’t comprehend it is.”
I read your OP as well, and I doubt it was as clear as you think. And even if you wrote the most cogent post in the history of the Internet, does that give you the right to insult people just because they don’t respond the way you want them to?October 28, 2022 4:16 pm at 4:16 pm #2133365Avram in MDParticipant
“But the level of questions and skepticism aimed at candidate demanding they defend their physical health or stating they’re too old is very distasteful and extremely antithetical to Torah values. [I’m obviously not referring to someone’s mental abilities.]”
Some of the noise is political, each side throwing as much mud as they can at the other. Some of the noise is based on ageism (ok Boomer), and the lack of respect that American culture in general shows towards elders is certainly antithetical to Torah values. However, some of the concerns are due to what the electorate views as the president or other elected officials’ roles are. For example, the ability to absorb and process complex information and make good decisions is the most important role of a president, but presidents are also expected to go out and “sell” their agendas. This role typically requires high energy and endurance, and good speaking skills.October 29, 2022 8:46 pm at 8:46 pm #2133491
Avram, I agree that we value age, even without wisdom. Gemora in kidushin seems to leave it ambiguous do we primarily honor wisdom or stam old age, as every old person acquires experience that is worthy honoring… Definitely, many people write that the current president showed empathy by relating to either his tragic family or people he met, including Holocaust survivors..
Still, when we elect a person who was not bright when he was young and in middle age, he gets set in his ways and prone to flattery and start acting with hubris, leading to disasters.November 2, 2022 11:57 pm at 11:57 pm #2134943HaLeiViParticipant
By the way, voting is indeed a Torah value for most positions, just usually not for a king.
Another important point that must be made is that voting for a candidate is not a reward or sign of admiration. It is a choice of whom you chose to fill a certain office, because of how you expect your candidate to fill that role.November 3, 2022 12:09 am at 12:09 am #2134949yungermanSParticipant
Let’s straighten ourselves out finally and all remember that Hashem runs the entire world…..November 7, 2022 6:18 pm at 6:18 pm #2136289dovrosenbaumParticipant
I don’t see it being against torah values to point out that a senile candidate or one with significant brain damage are unfit to lead.November 8, 2022 2:15 pm at 2:15 pm #2136465Yserbius123Participant
Why should this only apply to political candidates? I believe all leaders should step down when they reach old age or are too infirm to be the person they once were.
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