condemning a candidate due to sickness or old age.

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  • #2132305
    Participant
    Participant

    Granted, there is room for concern that if a good candidate is elected and promptly drops dead, if the replacement ain’t the original.
    But the level of questions and skepticism aimed at candidate demanding they defend their physical health or stating they’re too old is very distasteful and extremely antithetical to Torah values. [I’m obviously not referring to someone’s mental abilities.]
    It points to that the worry isn’t so much that there might need be a bad replacement [which BTW isn’t so common, anyway, because a good candidate should be picking a good running mate. (In the case of president, anyway)] but that the physical weakness of the candidate repulses them, something charachterisitic of Nazism.

    #2132372
    lakewhut
    Participant

    A stroke and senility are not what you want from a senator or president. Both clearly can’t complete a sentence in public without a script.

    #2132374
    lakewhut
    Participant

    When Reagan was running thats what the Democrats ran on in 84, questioning his age.

    #2132378
    commonsaychel
    Participant

    Sorry but being elected in a democracy is not a “torah value”, its a American value and its ok if it factors into who you want to vote for, my first vote was for Ronald Reagan, and it was a great choice

    #2132443
    ujm
    Participant

    What if the candidate has a reduced mental capacity, such as Joe Biden’s senility, shouldn’t that be a legitimate issue?

    #2132464
    Gadolhadorah
    Participant

    I recall several times over the years where there were those who questioned whether an elderly rav might not have fullyunderstood the questions and factual predicates surrounding an issue before a psak or kol koreh was issued in his name. There were insinuations of dementia or manipulation by his gaboim. Yet, we do NOT have age limits or mandatory retirement rules for our gadolim or roshei yeshivos. I would submit that their responsibilities to the tzibur are no less significant than our those of our elected offiicals.

    #2132509
    1
    Participant

    If a Rov has alzheimers, he will no longer give psak. When someone learns Torah every day of their life, at that age, they know so much that it’s in their memory. Gedolei Yisroel in their 90s don’t slip unlike Biden. It’s clear that Biden can’t complete a sentence and only sounds coherent when he’s very prepared and has the script in front of him. What a false equivalency but not unexpected by a Democrat Feminist like you.

    #2132512
    Participant
    Participant

    “Sorry but being elected in a democracy is not a “torah value”, its a American value” What on earth are you talking about? Did i mention that getting elected is a torah value?

    “What if the candidate has a reduced mental capacity, such as Joe Biden’s senility, shouldn’t that be a legitimate issue?”
    Sure, reduced mental capacity, e.g. inability to read and/or comprehend, is certainly a legitimate issue.

    #2132535
    commonsaychel
    Participant

    @participant, here is your quote “But the level of questions and skepticism aimed at candidate demanding they defend their physical health or stating they’re too old is very distasteful and extremely antithetical to Torah values.”
    What does torah values have to with an electablity

    #2132636
    smerel
    Participant

    Questioning whether a candidate has the mental or physical strength for office it totally OK. Mocking them for their apparent lack of it Is totally not OK. But mocking them for ANYTHING is not OK. Why pick on health? Calling Trump supporters “cultists” is also not OK. Etc.

    #2132650
    akuperma
    Participant

    1. In the UK, if the Head of State (who has minimal political importance) can be replaced by a regent, which under current law would not be a problem. The Head of Government not only tend to be younger (than American presidents) but are very easy to replace (since, in theory, they serve at the pleasure of the monarch, so with approval of the majority party, they can be replaced if disabled).

    2. The United States combined Head of State with Head of Government, and we have no easy way of replacing a disabled president (other than with the vice-president, which itself raises problems. There is no provision for a special election. And the US tends to elect only someone who is well established (and therefore old). And since American president is Head of Government, he has manage the government on a day to day basis. So it is reasonable that many Americans are concerned that both parties seem to be oriented towards nominating presidential candidates who are well past their “sell by” dates.

    #2132785
    Participant
    Participant

    @commonsaychel your suggestion that since the election is not a Torah value, an attitude toward a potential candidate can’t be antithetical to Torah values is rather illogical. Would u say the same thing ifI said that whoever votes specifically for a candidate who is a murderer, as they like murderers, is antithetical to Torah values?

    #2132811
    commonsaychel
    Participant

    I vote a person who would do a competent job not based on his health concerns, however if his health would affect his ablity, it would factor in and that is ajudgment call not a torah value

    #2132885
    Participant
    Participant

    i regret wasting my time responding to you. I had assumed “commonsaychel” possessed seichel; sadly you have the common lack thereof.

    #2132892

    People generally continue growing in their mental abilities until they reach the peak and then start going down. Age of the peak varies greatly. Many achieve at 20, but others are growing into their 90s.

    So, for a politician any age past 50 may be a time of decline and by 80, they are a danger to the world, while a talmid chacham is still on the way to the peak and may refuse a position (yet). Just has this in the end of Ketubot – a Tanna refusing to become Rosh Yeshiva in favor of an (even) older colleague and taking it after the death of the older one.

    #2132904
    commonsaychel
    Participant

    @AAQ, so your point is? to nominate Rav Kolter to be Mayor of Lakewood? or Rav Edelstein to be Mayor of Jerusalem?

    #2132950
    Pekak
    Participant

    @Participant

    Would you ride on a bus with a blind driver? Would you worry about his feelings?

    #2133146
    Participant
    Participant

    I reread my post several times and it is quite clear. Quite stunning and horrifying how utterly stupid these posters who can’t comprehend it is.

    #2133148
    Participant
    Participant

    are.

    #2133227
    philosopher
    Participant

    Participant, it is absurd that you are ok with having a president, or anyone in office, who does not posses the adequate mental capabilities to serve the in the capacity that their job entails.

    #2133236
    Participant
    Participant

    It is beyond absurd–quite very sad, actually–that yet another poster can’t comprehend what he reads.

    #2133314

    common, a good question. Possibly R Kotler’s talents will be wasted on being a mayor, and possibly he will not be succcessful at that! R Soloveichik talks that Jewish community evolves around teachers, not politicians. So, you just to need to expect less of politicians, and try to elect those who are helpful both for out klal and humanity in general.

    #2133366
    Avram in MD
    Participant

    Participant,

    “I reread my post several times and it is quite clear. Quite stunning and horrifying how utterly stupid these posters who can’t comprehend it is.”

    I read your OP as well, and I doubt it was as clear as you think. And even if you wrote the most cogent post in the history of the Internet, does that give you the right to insult people just because they don’t respond the way you want them to?

    #2133365
    Avram in MD
    Participant

    Participant,

    “But the level of questions and skepticism aimed at candidate demanding they defend their physical health or stating they’re too old is very distasteful and extremely antithetical to Torah values. [I’m obviously not referring to someone’s mental abilities.]”

    Some of the noise is political, each side throwing as much mud as they can at the other. Some of the noise is based on ageism (ok Boomer), and the lack of respect that American culture in general shows towards elders is certainly antithetical to Torah values. However, some of the concerns are due to what the electorate views as the president or other elected officials’ roles are. For example, the ability to absorb and process complex information and make good decisions is the most important role of a president, but presidents are also expected to go out and “sell” their agendas. This role typically requires high energy and endurance, and good speaking skills.

    #2133491

    Avram, I agree that we value age, even without wisdom. Gemora in kidushin seems to leave it ambiguous do we primarily honor wisdom or stam old age, as every old person acquires experience that is worthy honoring… Definitely, many people write that the current president showed empathy by relating to either his tragic family or people he met, including Holocaust survivors..

    Still, when we elect a person who was not bright when he was young and in middle age, he gets set in his ways and prone to flattery and start acting with hubris, leading to disasters.

    #2134943
    HaLeiVi
    Participant

    By the way, voting is indeed a Torah value for most positions, just usually not for a king.

    Another important point that must be made is that voting for a candidate is not a reward or sign of admiration. It is a choice of whom you chose to fill a certain office, because of how you expect your candidate to fill that role.

    #2134949
    yungermanS
    Participant

    Let’s straighten ourselves out finally and all remember that Hashem runs the entire world…..

    #2136289
    dovrosenbaum
    Participant

    I don’t see it being against torah values to point out that a senile candidate or one with significant brain damage are unfit to lead.

    #2136465
    Yserbius123
    Participant

    Why should this only apply to political candidates? I believe all leaders should step down when they reach old age or are too infirm to be the person they once were.

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