May 2, 2021 6:03 pm at 6:03 pm #1970267lakewhutParticipant
I’m having a hard time feeling the tzaar from the tragedy which took place in meron. The rational side of me is pulling me towards one direction. I’ve been to meron 3 times twice in the past 5 years. The past two times I’ve been there it the conditions were not safe. People were pushing others down rocky hills: the kever was a breathing hazard.The rational side of me is saying that I’m not too surprised at what took place. Hopefully better measures are taken in the future. to ensure the safety of everyone. Usually it’s the rich get vip escorts through and everyone else has to survive on their own. Perhaps if I knew someone personally I’d be able to feel the tragedy but I just have a hard time processing it emotionally.May 2, 2021 6:24 pm at 6:24 pm #1970282
I hear you. But that is the way it is. Those who were caught in the crush, were not the cause of it. The two ideas are not contradictions. Even if disaster was just a matter of time, it was not inevitable that these people would be the ones to bear The tragedy. Brothers going from dancing together to being crushed together, is tragic regardless of any premonition’s we may/should have had.May 2, 2021 8:03 pm at 8:03 pm #1970286☕️coffee addictParticipant
I think the two points you made are mutually exclusiveMay 2, 2021 8:03 pm at 8:03 pm #1970287lakewhutParticipant
It’s 100% tragicMay 2, 2021 8:05 pm at 8:05 pm #1970292MadeAliyahParticipant
@lakewhut, thank you for sharing your honest feelings. You’re not alone and I know that many others identify with every word you wrote, so please let me share the thoughts of a simple jew in EY.
Not feeling tzaar from the tragedy is understandable. To you the victims are no more than a picture and a number, they had no impact on you when they were alive so deaths have no impact on you either. All this is again understandable, you are human after all.
What is not understandable is when we skip the tzaar because we found the reason for their deaths. “This was waiting to happen!” or “the kever was a breathing hazard!” are easy ways to calm any uneasy feelings we might have that forty-five people were killed in one night. If this was a natural event, why should we feel bad? People die of old age too, don’t they? Death is inevitable!
Therefore I ask you to stop for a minute and ask yourself some uncomfortable questions:
Is it natural for forty-five people to be crushed to death in one night? Is it ‘unsurprising’ that a Chosson’s friends attended his levayah instead of his chasunah? Or that a father came to Meron with three sons and left with only one? Is it unsurprising that a four-year-old was flung from his dying father’s hands? Or that a bochur carried his friend’s dead body away from the scene?
Yes, there are guilty parties, no one is denying that. But the question we should be asking ourselves is; what are we supposed to make of it on a personal level? This is not some mussar point for a mashgiach to tell his yeshivah. What happened in Meron was a slap in the face of the entire jewish community. In the largest annual gathering of jews, forty-five children, bochurim and fathers, from almost all backgrounds , died an unnatural death. Do we really need another wake-up call?May 2, 2021 8:59 pm at 8:59 pm #1970299HealthParticipant
Lakewhut -“I’m having a hard time feeling the tzaar from the tragedy which took place in meron.”
This is a common phenomenon.
They say when you practice medicine – there’s 3 words – apathy, empathy, sympathy.
It goes from Not caring to too much.
When you’re involved in the situation – there’s so much pain – it’s very easy to be sympathetic.
Apathy is Sinas Chinum.
The best thing is to be Empathetic.
That means that you’re concerned about the victim and do anything to help them.
This is the correct way to feel.
If you’re the type that always becomes sympathetic, eventually you become Apathetic!
To answer your question – years ago we had a neighbor that went to the Kenniseya Gedola in EY.
I think that it was around 1980.
And the crowds weren’t controlled.
On the way in, there was Big pushing – so much so he couldn’t Breathe!
He thought that was the end.
What happened next – he saw an indentation in the fence – he went in and it saved him!
But the reason my whole family remembers this Story, because he repeated it – time after time.
The same thing with any injury, if you see something like a bad car accident & s/o says he would have lived if he was wearing a seatbelt!
And you repeated this many times, you’d never Not wear a seatbelt in a Car!May 2, 2021 8:59 pm at 8:59 pm #1970301
I think feeling the extent of the tragedy, is not realizing that it is unnatural. Personally, I would say that I have thought about the tragedy without having any ‘wake up call’.May 3, 2021 1:05 am at 1:05 am #1970325Sam KleinParticipant
I feel your situation and feeling of the exact pain you feel of the tragedy in meron versus how others in klal yisroel are feeling about this horrific tragedy that hit klal yisroel in a shock it of no where. Totally unexpectedly.
Time for all of us to get together at the same time for serious teshuva and achdus with fasting ASAP like we did in the days of the Miracle of Purim and the people of Ninveh did and boruch Hashem their lives were saved. Let’s not wait any longer. WE DON’T C”V NEED ANY MORE HORRIFIC TRAGEDIES TO HIT KLAL YISROEL in order for us to return to Hashem with serious teshuva and achdus ASAP together as a loving nation.
Let’s start now so we can bring the korban chagiga this Shavuous in the Bais hamikdoshMay 3, 2021 1:16 am at 1:16 am #1970307
I think we can feel for the tragedy even when people did something inappropriate… when a child hurts himself, you don’t start chastising him for not following safety rules, you first take care of his pain….
what is not appropriate is blaming others – government, police – or even say “we do not understand your ways Hashem, but we accept it” rather than looking at your own behavior. It is understandable in the face of the tragedy, of course.
R Avigdor Miller talked about a parent who let a strange poor person in, gave him hot tea, then went to bring another cup of tea, while leaving a kid in the room with the stranger who poured hot tea into the kid’s face.. do not say “I do not understand this tragedy while doing a mitzva”, do say “she did an aveirah of leaving a kid with a strange while doing a mitzva and was punished for that”…May 3, 2021 1:19 am at 1:19 am #1970309
MA > easy ways to calm any uneasy feelings we might have that forty-five people were killed in one night. If this was a natural event, why should we feel bad
We should shudder that while Israel is getting saved from the pandemic tragedy, it gets into another one. This is not derech hateva .. some sources say that typically Jews in Israel, or in a fully Jewish city, would get a message from Hashem, but when Jews live among the nations, we sometimes do not hear the message – whole city/country/world sis punished, so it is not our fault. Seems like in current Israel, the situation is like the latter – there are others, politicians, police, whose fault it is, it is not a message for us …May 3, 2021 11:45 am at 11:45 am #1970407twistedParticipant
Rabosai, it is not enough to feel pain or to log it as just another tragedy or message, or to say we must be mehazek. In time, we must ask some questions, and introspect.
was the bickering and jockeying for control of the tzuyun between edot not off-putting enough
were the of rabonnim past and present who said not to participate not worthy of being listened to
if torah is magna umatzla, perhaps this “hilula” is not reason enough to leave the bais medrash
The concept of vacation is a foreign idea. If one needs to find thrilling situations for feeling devekus, why isnt the day to day torah life fullfilling enough
The korban tomid and the avodah waa accomplished by one mishmar oif cohanim, one mishmar of leviim, and ten ansheu maamad. The anshei maamad were representatives of the klal. WE don’t have the korban, but it’s importance and it’s messages are still relevant. The importance of the ‘hilula’ is arguably, not the same as the the importance of the avoda.
Do we have chain of custody mesorah that lag bOmer is the yahrzeit
could the minhagim of Tzefat and Teveria have remained in Tzefat and Teveria why are they relevanrt to anyone else
There is a money and kovod trail to follow
May HKB”H grant us clarity, teshuva, and nechamaMay 3, 2021 11:53 am at 11:53 am #1970420jackkParticipant
If a person finds it hard to feel the tragedy, they can listen to one of the hespeideim or divray zicharon.
Many of them are online.
It will be very easy to feel the pain during the hespeidim and divray zicharon.May 3, 2021 11:54 am at 11:54 am #1970424MadeAliyahParticipant
I was just sharing my thoughts and I am in no place to give anyone mussar.
However, I beg of you all to think deeply about the spiritual cause before the physical cause.
I will now get off the soapbox, thank you for listening.May 3, 2021 11:55 am at 11:55 am #1970428maskildoreshParticipant
There’s an important point.
The Torah teaches us not only to behave with certain actions, but also how to feel. It’s totally normal to feel hatred and want revenge if someone harms you, to Covent your friends house and perhaps his wife. But the Torah teaches us that we are capable of working on our emotions and becoming noble and rising above normal feelings.
You’re struggling with “Noseh BiOl”, with Mishtateif Bitzaran Shel Acheirim. It may be very normal and reasonable. That doesn’t mean that where the Torah expects you to remain….
Doesn’t mean it’s easy. We all have Mitzvos that are easier for us and ones that are harder. That doesn’t absolve us of the responsibility to keep growing more noble. I can’t imagine that you could possibly believe that the Torah doesn’t want you to feel pain for the families etc. You’re just being honest about the struggle. That’s fine. Arguing about if your feeling are legitimate or not is a waste of everyone’s time. They’re legitimate to YOU. But it doesn’t stop there…May 3, 2021 11:59 am at 11:59 am #1970477
> korban tomid and the avodah waa accomplished by one mishmar oif cohanim
and we had Cohanim ONLY TWICE engage in inappropriate fights for the honor (Yoma 22-23, one knifed, one broken leg) and the Rabbis stopped the races. Why are we less sensitive to human tragedy in our times?May 3, 2021 11:59 am at 11:59 am #1970481
Dear Twisted, I think you may be on the wrong thread.May 3, 2021 12:48 pm at 12:48 pm #1970507twistedParticipant
Always the gemara there laments they were more concerned with taharas hakelim than for life, and we nebech know it is a lesson for us. My point was it is chadoshim mikarav ba’u to think the whole oilam must go there
Nom, why wrong thread, yes we should mourn, but we should be sharp enough to think when x activity is visited with tragedy, something was amiss with x activity.
Another thought, do the multiple hadlokos give the optics of Achdus, or of somthing else?May 3, 2021 1:33 pm at 1:33 pm #1970506CTRebbeParticipant
I think that R. Tzvi Berkowitz from Baltimore made very good points that relate to the second part of what you say. Try not to get caught up in the details of how it happened, who was at fault etc. Humans do this be c. we like to be in control and try to find understanding in everything. It is really an escape.
Even if you are having a hard time connecting to the tragedy maybe that is the message for you. Maybe what you need to work on is feeling more connected to every member of klal yisrael. If secular Israelis are pouring out thier hearts in pain (maybe not all but many are) you can learn to emulate them. It is an avodah but worth working on.May 4, 2021 7:04 pm at 7:04 pm #1971075user176Participant
Everyone has different emotional triggers. Try ignoring the why, it isn’t really relevant. In the end of the day lives of great people were lost. Something that helps me feel the pain is putting myself in the victims shoes. Imagine it was me who perished H”V, how would my family react. Imagine the pain of all those who love you. What if it was my spouse who perished H”V or another loved one. Think for a while, play it out it your head. Think of what their new day to day life will be like. Read their stories and hespedim and substitute yourself for them. Each person is an entire world, with a family just like yours. Think about all the thoughts that pass through your head daily, each of these people had the same amount of thoughts and feelings. Really imagine what it is like for a person to suddenly seize to exist. Think hard and try to cry. Sometimes we need to use our imagination to awaken our true feelings. Hope this helps.
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