Conscientious objectors Haredi VS lefty secularistts

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  • #2174412
    Good to know

    So let me get it straig if lefty soldiers don’t like the government (like judicial reform) they will avoid service and are hailed, but Haredim conscientious objectors opposing army lifestyle ideas and morals are slammed? What is hypocrisy again.


    Hypocrisy is not a factor in identity politics. Why is this so hard for everyone to grasp?


    Hailed by who? Other leftists no different than how it works in the Haredi world?

    ☕️coffee addict

    Good to know,

    It depends on what is a noble cause

    To the frei tziyonim judicial reform is bad so opposing it is good and whatever is done to do that is good, whereas religion and Torah is bad and whatever is done to further that is bad too and whatever is done to counteract it is good so not wanting to be counteracted is bad


    CA: So you are saying that bad is good when the good in question is bad so it is important to distinguish the good from the bad, or is it the other way around??


    To @Kuvult “Hailed by who? Other leftists ”


    Efraim haLevi ex chief of Mossed, last night, for example…


    You are confusing many different issues.

    First, conscientious objection is refusing to serve in the military on religious or moral grounds, either because you hold a particular war is objectionable, or that all war is objectionable. Medinat Yisrael has been very reluctant to acknowledge the idea of conscientious objection (international law not withstanding) since to do so would be acknowledge the possibility that the zionist war with the Yismaelim is not justified. There are some secular Israelis who have announced they are pacifists, or that the conduct of the Israeli army is objectionable, and they are mildly persecuted. Frum Jews can never claim to be pacifists (halacha is clear on that), and those who object on the grounds that the Israeli government is either totally illegitimate or acting in a de facto halachically unacceptable manner have been exempted on the grounds (sometimes stretched) that they are busy learning Torah (which allows for being “deferred”, rather than “exempted” from army service, as in the case in most western countries, largely since most Christian sects traditionally prohibited clergy from bearing arms or killing people). Under international law, Hareidim who oppose the Medinah (e.g. Satmar and Neturei Karta) are probably conscientious objectors regardless of whether they are learning Torah or working for a living, but as I mentioned above, the Medinah prefers to defer them until they are too old to serve in the army rather than confront the halachic issues raised be recognizing them as conscientious objectors. From a Hareidi halachic perspective, the zionist state have no rights to control Eretz Yisrael, and whenever they kill a Palestinian in support of their goal, they are spilling innocent blood, and if you help them you are guilty of murder (remember that in Jewish tradition there is no defense of “following orders”). One reason the zionists have been reluctant to crack down on Hareidim opposed to the medinah is the fear of the public relations disaster if Jewish asylum seekers show up in foreign countries as refugees from zionist oppression (remember that the goyim supported establishing the medinah in order to be a homeland for Jews they didn’t want, so having Jews seeking refuge abroad when fleeing from the zionists would seriously undermine the medinah).

    Refusing to serve in the army because you don’t like the lifestyle is a common complaint in all countries. Frum Jews who support the zionists can ask to be assigned to a “frum” unit. Refusing to serve in the army for political reasons, e.g. you support the zionist movement but not the government’s policies, is NOT conscientious objection, whether it is a secular Jew opposed to Israel becoming a Jewish state, or a religious zionist opposed to policies such as territorial concessions.
    It is a political statement, and one that in many countries would be considered treason (and if done by a soldier, mutiny).

    One needs to remember that the “judicial reform” is really about the replacement of a secular zionist state, preserved by a judiciary that has been a self-continuing clique since the 1950s, with one reflecting the views of the religious zionists. The elites who have been losing power, like any elite being forced to give up power, will fight tooth and nail (and they do control the economy, the universities and most of the military’s officers).

    Good to know

    @akuperma “frum jews con be assigned to…”


    Well, that might be OK with the IDF and Hesder and a tiny minority Hardak, what about those who do not trust any framework WITHIN the secular IDF?


    Do those who don’t trust any framework with the IDF truely support the zionist state. If you believe the the Muslims are a true threat, you should be willing to fight them, and rely on well established heterim to do so. AND MOST IMPORTANTLY, you have no halachic objections to army service.

    If you would prefer an autonomous frum (Hareidi) kehillah in which Yidden live by their own laws under their own governance and have nothing to do with the goyim and their wars, and see that as preferable to the zionist state, you are ideologically much closer to people such as Jacob De Haan, the Satmarer (the original) and Neturei Karta – and you can clearly claim conscientious objector status


    Translated from Belomom, 18.3.23:

    The Radical left are the enemies of religion – that’s why they demonstrated in Bnei Brak

    Can anyone explain to me the connection between the legal reform and the ultra-Orthodox in Bnei Brak? What does this have to do with all this matter and the matter of conscription, they came to Bnei Brak to demonstrate against the ultra-Orthodox on the claim that the ultra-Orthodox public are … who (some) do not work and do not serve in the IDF, when none of the demonstrators explains how they are better, it has already been two months that they do not work… ‘the pot calling the kettle black’, if you care so much about the country’s economy, how do you take so much time off, which proves that you probably don’t work.
    The radical-left did a very good and important service to those ultra-Orthodox who still needed proof that the radical-left is the enemy of religion and the ultra-Orthodox. They came to Bnei Brak who cried out that they want to eat only non-kosher and not to observe Shabbat and on Passover they will eat only Chametz, they did not come to explain why the reform is not good, they came to argue against the ultra-Orthodox who do not serve in the army, and even came to Ponovizh to protest against the yeshiva’s existence

    For years I have explained in this place and previously in my newspapers that the ultra-Orthodox have a serious problem with the left, a large part of the ultra-Orthodox are not at all concerned with the issue of a state or not a state, territories or not, the question is whether the left are Torah and mitzvot observant, and even if not what Their attitude to the Torah and mitzvot. The reality is that the right are people of tradition, even those who go to football on Shabbat respect the religion, while the left live in dangerous liberalism and inject more and more vulgarity into family life and other such matters. They seek to destroy the entire family structure, no more parents but one parent and a second parent, they prefer those who live in an abomination than those who live according to nature, the left is a symbol of anti-religion, therefore there is no possibility for an ultra-Orthodox to live together with them, they must run away from it as far as they can just can

    As long as the leftists do not understand that their attitude to religion is the one that will decide the attitude of the ultra-Orthodox towards them, they will be forced to go with the right because they have no other choice. There are some leftists in Torah Judaism, among them are those who would prefer the left, but they admit that there is no escape from going with the right because the left opposes every issue of holiness and it is impossible to sit with such people in one coalition

    The demonstration in Bnei Brak opened the eyes of those who needed to understand how dangerous the left is in Jewish existence, they erase every Jewish male, in their view they prefer to live without Judaism, … they are ,”Tinok shenishba” and live a life of error and shame on them, more I feel sorry for them.

    ☕️coffee addict

    To toshma,

    They lefty protesters are working, someone has to be paying them in order to protest


    akuperma, thanks for a good description. I would take an issue equating anyone charedi with clergy in other countries. Clergy is a concept of established religious activities approved by the government. It does not mean anyone who declares himself occupied by religious studies can qualify.


    AAQ: One need not be approved by the government to be a clergyman. It isn’t the government’s business to approve religious activities.


    C A. I take it as a humor.


    In most countries, now and especially in earlier times, religions had to be officially recognized.


    AAQ: It’s been almost unheard of, even historically, for a rabbi to need approval by the local government to be a rabbi.


    After the publication of the Torah study foundation law this morning, Bnei Brak is threatened by [“Kumi Israel”] the leaders of the protest “You made the mistake of your life, what you saw in Ayalon is just a promo”

    Rotter, 25.07.23.


    Isn’t YWN being just as hypocritical in the other direction now by slamming the leftists?


    old post> It’s been almost unheard of, even historically, for a rabbi to need approval by the local government to be a rabbi.

    Russian empire had an officially approved position. Due to efforts of R Salanter and others, the policy was for the learnt people not to apply for this position and thus to have a clear separation between real and official Rabbis.

    Germany had mechanism of approval for creating a kehilla and, I think, for the Rabbi who they hire.


    I think people who published letters about not going to the service are volunteers (who previously served), not objectors to mandatory service. As others said, this seems be to vicious reaction of the “old guard” who lost their influence and are afraid that majority of the country goes in a different direction from theirs, so they created this hysteria and others, unfortunately, followed.

    The fact is, Israel had five elections on a row where these issues were debated, and a finally formed majority are following up on what they were elected upon.


    AAQ: Reservists are not volunteers in Israel. They’re basically the actual IDF. Albeit, it is functionally different for them to refuse. You could theoretically make the argument that it’s worse to join an army then refuse to serve rather than just never join it in the first place (for the record, I’m not actually making that argument).


    Neville Chaim Berlin, please explain what you meant by #2210835 .

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