Contradictions

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  • #616911
    jwashing2001
    Member

    There are some contradictions in jewish history that i have recently heard that bother me and if someone has an answer to would be great. One is that when the torah was transalated into greek on 8 teves it was a tragedy but when onkelos or artscroll does it it is considered a great thing. Another is that the Netziv shut down Voloshin yeshiva because they were forced to teach secular studies but now secular studies is commonly accepted and even a selling point for some yeshivas.

    #1119866
    Joseph
    Participant

    The Septuagint was the first time the Torah was translated into another language. And it was done under the threat of force. Being it was the first translation it was tragic in that it, for the first time, made possible for the gentiles to take our Torah, corrupt it, and later even seek to lay claim to it.

    Once it was already translated, a future translation doesn’t add their ability to take it from us since they already had the first translation.

    That all being said, some shittos in fact opposed the Artscroll and other translations.

    Secular studies in yeshivos are somewhat limited and done to the extent they are mandated under local secular law. And often the yeshivos, in fact, do less than State law mandates, if they can get away with it. And some shittos hold that secular studies shouldn’t be taught at all in high school, if avoidable.

    #1119867
    ☕️coffee addict
    Participant

    I think the difference for the first question is because onkeles has a lot of yesodos in it, it is mentioned in Gemara as secrets of Hashem, whereas yavan is just a translation

    #1119868
    son
    Member

    Volozhin was shut down because of mesirah; some who opposed the mussar movement turned to Russian authorities and claimed ‘revolutionary ideas’ were being taught in the yeshiva – that was the last bit of ‘evidence’ needed to shut down a Jewish institution.

    #1119869

    Another is that the Netziv shut down Voloshin yeshiva because they were forced to teach secular studies

    Rav Boruch Sorotzkin, the Netziv’s nephew, denied this.

    He says they wanted the day to be spent mostly on secular studies,

    but the Netziv would have allowed some secular studies.

    #1119870
    lesschumras
    Participant

    Here is another one. Artscroll was criticised for publishing the Gemora in English, the everyday language in the US. Yet the Gemorah itself was written in Aramaic, which was the everyday language of the people in Bavel

    #1119871
    Shopping613 🌠
    Participant

    There can be contradictions in the Torah. It’s hard for us small insignificant eggheads to understand it. Only G-d can write a book with a bunch of contradictions with everything being correct.

    We shall understand soon enough.

    #1119872
    👑RebYidd23
    Participant

    Eggheads are not insignificant.

    #1119873
    Shopping613 🌠
    Participant

    Depends who you ask.

    #1119874
    son
    Member

    Here is another one. Artscroll was criticised for publishing the Gemora in English, the everyday language in the US. Yet the Gemorah itself was written in Aramaic, which was the everyday language of the people in Bavel

    The objection you’re referring to should/would have already existed with the Soncino edition. Did it? That’s a genuine question – not just a challenge.

    Perhaps more research into the origins of the objections wouldn’t hurt; the letters are documented.

    Not to do with Artscroll in specific, but R’ Yaakov Kamenetsky even objected to the suggestion of printing gemara in the original Aramaic with punctuation (his reasoning is in print).

    #1119875
    ghj613
    Member

    Sefer Hatodaah by R’ Eliyahu KiTov explains at great length the tragedy of the Septuagint. The translation provided, as any translation is, could only be at a very literal level meaning the homiletical, allegorical and mystical interpretations implicit in each and every letter of the Torah was abandoned. This left the Torah “an empty shell”. Coxnversely, Onkelos still retains these levels of deepness, after all, his Targum stems from Har Sinai. Furthermore, the translation meant the non – jews would claim to have a holding in the torah and could now find fault with it, stripping the reverence of the Torah away.

    #1119876
    Bramo
    Participant

    If i am correct the greeks wanted it to be translated to show that we are no more special then anyone else and what was once only for the yidden was made for everyone else. now targum is also a pirush on chumash so thats different.

    Joseph

    those that oppose artscroll is mainly because it takes away the ameilus in learning which at least for most kids in yeshiva is not good

    #1119877
    Joseph
    Participant

    The Septuagint was also produced miraculously when the king locked 72 talmidei chachomim each into separate rooms and commanded them each to translate Tanach on their own. He planned on mocking them when they finished by saying, look you all translated your Torah differently. When they all completed they realized all of them miraculously translated the entire Torah, word-for-word, exactly the same via ruach kodesh. They even all similarly modified a pusek what could have sounded like mocking the kings daughter. And changed the order of the first pusek to not sound like a god named “Bereishus” created Elokim.

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