Corona Chillul Hashem (again)

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  • #1933067
    ubiquitin
    Participant

    Meno

    I’m not sure the answer to your question (Its a good one)

    a related (strictly hypothetical) question would be is it muttar/appropriate for the administrators of the vaccine to let you cut the line ? help you cut the line?

    This seems like less of a question to me. For YOU to cut you can argue chayecha kodem, you come first and if there are limited vaccines, you want to take care of yourself, a principal that certainly has basis in halacha (Though I’m not saying that would be the final decision in your hypothetical case just that there is a legitimate discussion) for them to help you or even let you cut seems less justifiable

    (None of this comment is directly related to the subject of the OP whci his not really described in Meno’s question

    #1933081
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    Why is your blood redder than someone else’s blood?

    #1933094
    Meno
    Participant

    Reb Eliezer,

    Chayecha kodmin.

    But I don’t think that’s relevant in the situation I posed. Everyone on line will get the vaccine, although some people will wait longer than others. Granted there’s a small possibility that some people will die while waiting. I’m asking whether that categorizes this as a case of pikuach nefesh which is docheh most issurim.

    #1933107
    emes nisht sheker
    Participant

    DY – I would think as long as it is reasonable to assume that the governments policy is trying to save life, it is a chillul Hashem. Just because you think another approach is better, I don’t think that gets you past dina d’malchusa… Also, these vaccines belong to the government and were paid for with government funds, which would mean you are stealing (whether halacha technically allows that or not, notwithstanding) something you may not even have a right to in the first place (it belongs to the government and they can decide how to give it out… You are welcome to go to Pfizer and see if you can buy it yourself). Finally, even if you, personally, can justify cutting the line because your own life takes precedence, that is not a justification for someone to divert the vaccine for others.

    #1933113
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    I don’t think chayecha kodmin applies here. You don’t have to give up your place in line but don’t jump ahead. A person can kill someone in order not to get killed or steal from someone because of chayecha kodmin.

    • This reply was modified 1 month, 4 weeks ago by Reb Eliezer.
    • This reply was modified 1 month, 4 weeks ago by Reb Eliezer.
    #1933143
    ujm
    Participant

    If two starving people see food that can save one of them, either person can attempt to grab it first to save themselves.

    #1933174
    Meno
    Participant

    ujm,

    Do you think that case is comparable to the case I described?

    #1933184
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    Meno, if someone has water, he does not have to share it with another because of chayecha but to take at away from him?

    #1933186
    ujm
    Participant

    Meno, *if* the person is in a higher risk category (but not on the government’s prioritized access list) AND the difference in time between getting it by waiting versus getting it now has an appreciable risk of death or severe injury.

    #1933203
    charliehall
    Participant

    Covid test positive rate in Borough Park now seven times that of Park Slope.

    We are doing this to ourselves.

    #1933208
    Meno
    Participant

    ujm,

    So your answer is: most likely no.

    Someone who has been managing just fine for the past 9 months and will probably be eligible for a vaccine within a month is most likely not in a “chayecha kodmin” (i.e. save yourself at all costs) situation.

    #1933218
    ubiquitin
    Participant

    Meno

    A more pressing question, with a longer time delay ( day as opposed to waiting longer on line) would be can he go get vaccine on Shabbos? Drive? sign for one? Administer one etcd.

    I believe Israeli poskim said no

    #1933483
    huju
    Participant

    To ujm: You have not replied to my question, which I have asked a number of times: Are you being paid, directly or indirectly, for any of your posts?

    #1933520
    ujm
    Participant

    To huju: The only payment I accept is from the Ribono Shel Plan for following His command to express Hakaros Hatov to the friends of Klal Yisroel.

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