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When talking about the hishtadlus vs. eibeshter vet helfen approaches to parnassa, people often quote the phrase kochi v’otzem yadi. They neglect the next pasuk.
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That is, you do hishtadlus. You exercise koach. You have a yad atzum. And you remember exactly Who gave you all that.
Derech Hamelech, I’ve been lurking on this thread and have some questions about your posts.
You wrote,
“It also seems that you missed a point I made earlier in that, we do not know who’s Torah is supporting what aspect of the world. For all you know it is the man in Bnei Brak who has been eating half a slice of bread for breakfast every morning that is responsible for some of the good things that you have.”
My response:
And for all you know it is the Torah of SJS’s husband and children, and G@W and his children, that is supporting the world. Why, then, do you not send money so that SJS’s husband and G@W could cut their work hours and spend more time learning?
You also wrote:
“I have some difficulty understanding your stance. Do you then believe that shevet Yissachar was wrong for making a deal with Zevulun?
If you say that Zevulun chose to accept on themselves to carry Yissachar, then why don’t you chose this (assuming you can afford to)?”
My response:
Do you also have an issue with shevet Reuven, Shimon, Yehudah, etc, since they also did not choose to make such an arrangement with shevet Yisachar or another shevet? If you do have an issue with them, why do you suppose Hashem did not? And if you don’t have an issue with them, why do you have a problem with SJS’s and G@W’s choices?
Anon:
Your first point is not a bad question. Nevertheless it doesn’t negate any of Derech’s point. The answer imo is, that yes, if they (sjs and gaw) wanted to learn Torah and needed support for it, they would not be wrong in seeking it.
Your second point does not make much sense.
Sorry Mods but there was a lot of posts before Shabbos.
g_a_w:
No one is entitled to be supported, and no one has the excuse to be an Ani by choice and therefore require support.
Absolutely. The exception being that klal Yisroel has a responsibility to support those that are learning Torah since it is something that benefits the klal.
Prove to me the Tolna Rebbe is a gadol, please.
Sure, just tell me what the required criteria in your eyes are to become one.
SJS:
There is a famous mashul from the Chofetz Chaim comparing hishtadlus to trying to push a train. It accomplishes nothing in and of itself it is only an illusion that a person needs to maintain based on his level of bitachon. Hence we find stories of lets say Rav Yosef Chaim Sonnenfeld who the night before Yom Tov closed his gemarah walked down the block picked up money off the ground and went home. On his level of bitachon the hishtadlus he needed for parnassah was minimal.
Similarly there is a story with the Shelah. He one time gave a drashah saying that with the proper bitachon a person could just go home and learn all day and the money would come to him. His brother in law who was a simple person was at the drashah and promptly left his work to say tehillim all day. His wife (the Shelah’s sister) went to the Shelah to complain. He told her that if he has bitachon, the money would come. Long story short, his wagon came back to him full of money.
Hishtadlus IS dropping money into your lap, no matter what your job is. The hishtadlus is just the medium through which Hashem is more likely to drop the money through.
The reason why you give the child starving in front of you is because his needs are immediate. But if the child is not directly in front to of you then I would say give the kollel man because his learning can help this child get food and if not this child then another child.
Itchesrulik:
This conversation has been going on long enoughthat I’m not sure what context you are referring to anymore.
anonforthis:
You are right. It could be their Torah. Because I don’t know, I think the best thing is to give money to any public Torah institution–such as a kollel.
The rest of the shevatim already accepted on themselves to be the Machzikei Torah of Shevet Levi. ie in the form of Trumos and Maaseros. Yissachar and Zevulun just took it a step further. You took what I said out of context- the position of the person I was answering said that it was wrong to support charities that discourage men from supporting their families, ie. kollelim. I compared this to Shevet Yissachar who did not support their families themselves but relied on Zevulun to do it.
Just try to understand. If EVERY man (from 3 yo till 120) will sit and learn all day, what from money will come to buy a pair of pants to go to school?
cv:
Why are you asking this question to me? Ask it on the gemara in Sanhedrin 94b where Chizkiya didn’t allow anyone to leave the beis medrish on pain of death.
Just try to understand. If EVERY man (from 3 yo till 120) will sit and learn all day, what from money will come to buy a pair of pants to go to school?
I think G-d has enough money in his bank account to work it out.
DH, maybe you don’t realize how many sick and starving Jews there are. How many people who NEED to be taken care of, not who WANT to be taken care of. I could give away every dollar I have right now and still not take care of the poor, starving kids I know or the sick people or the elderly…why in the world would I give it to a man who is perfectly capable of going out and feeding his family?
Maybe I am missing out on the mesiras nefesh of a Kollel man. It seems like everyone is sacrificing but him. He is obligated (no matter if he works or learns all day) to learn Torah. It is an obligation. It makes it easier for him to fulfill this obligation. It also makes it much easier for him to make minyanim. It makes it easier for him to deal with shabbos, yom tov and chol hamoed. It’s a lot easier to take off a day of Kollel than a day of work. There is no “bein hazmanim” for workers. What is he giving up?
His wife is giving up her right to be supported, and is often running herself ragged trying to raise the kids and work on a tight budget. The children are sometimes missing out on nutritious food or better clothing. Others are giving up money to support kollel families.
Again, if the bitachon of Kollel families is so great, why do they come asking for my money? Its not needed – if they really had bitachon, they would find the money right next to them. Obviously, we all have to live b’derech hateva in addition to our bitachon.
My mother always told me that money was like mun – Hashem gave you what you needed to live. But that didn’t mean she didn’t have to go to work to earn that money. It just meant a windfall usually came with an avenue for the money to go (like unexpected car repairs or whatnot).
I already answered your first point. By supporting a kollel man learn Torah you ARE helping to heal the sick, feed the poor, etc. The Torah is the source of all brachos and the more that is learned the more bracha comes to the world. As we say in davening “Talmidei Chachamim marbim Shalo-m ba’olam…al tikra banayich ela bonayich”.
This has nothing to do with meisras nefesh, although that is not to say that a kollel man doesn’t have that as well. If you would like to know what kollel men give up I invite you to come to E”Y. See them with wrinkled suits because they can’t afford the cleaners. Come see their cramped apartments. See what their meals consists of every single day. Hear them asking to be paid back the one or two shekels that are borrowed because they can barely afford to give even that up. Feel the cold apartments of those that can’t afford heat and instead need to bundle up their families.
What are your work hours? How many days a week? Do you work from 9am until 7 pm on a daily basis 5 days a week. Do you put in additional hours on Friday, erev Shabbos or maybe on Shabbos itself, to get a few extra dollars? Do you have a ‘night job as well’ from 8-10 to get some extra groceries? I have a friend who is out at 5am and doesn’t get back until 10:30pm every day of the week. What exactly do you mean ‘no mesirus nefesh’?
Rav Shach says that kollel men get their parnassah outside the derech hateva (Rav Shach Speaks). When kollelim come to you collecting money, you are not doing them a favor. They have the bitachon, they will get what they need somehow or another. Hashem already designated a certain amount of money for each kollel. If you don’t give it someone else will. They are doing you a favor by giving you a zchus to be a part of the mitzvah that is kneged kulam.
“I think G-d has enough money in his bank account to work it out”
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So, why letters from different kollels coming to MY home? I’m not G-d. No one person supported me from the day I graduated from high school. I work very hard and give more than 10 % of my income to poor, sick and old people, to orphans, I helping to pay my grands yeshiva tuition, but I do not support kollel men. I totally agree with SJSinNYC.
“What are your work hours? How many days a week?”
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Kollel men choose his life. I did not choose – was put in situation, when I had to raise my children alone. I was working 20 hours a day 6 days a week for many years. I was working at work and then I was working from home at night, when my kids were sleeping. I’m keeping one full and one part time jobs even now, to be able to support who I think is important to support. If person is mature enough to be married and have children, he need to be mature enough to support his family
cv, I’m sorry you never had the zchus to give them. Maybe you’ll be given that opportunity by the Ribbono Shel Olam before meah v’esrim.
Cedarhurst, I did not say never gave money to Kollel. I said I do not give money to Kollel. I stop doing this after I have a chance to meet Kollel families. My son-in-law has a full time job to support his large family and learning at night. It was his choice – to have a family and to support it. Kollel men choose to learn full time, to have family and to be supported. If the girl was agree to marry a man, who will learn full time, she is the one who made an agreement to support him.
I believe, I support Torah by paying a part of my grandchildren’s tuition after I give 10% to support orphans, sick and needy people.
cv:
I get the feeling you are just taking the opportunity to rant. All the points that you have brought up were already discussed in this thread.
cv, it seems to me that besides the tremendous zechus you have from raising your children alone and supporting their torah learning yourself, you continue to amass the zechus of supporting torah by supporting your grandchildren’s tuition. Not to mention the zechus of supporting orphans and sick and needy people.
DH, I think you misunderstood my first point. The poor, starving people are people that I know. They are standing in front of me. I give what I can, but I don’t have that much I can spare. Unless you think the next time I see a poor starving child, I say “a donation has been made in your honor to XYZ Kollel?”
As to mesiras nefesh – I do agree that the families have a lot of mesiras nefesh. The Kollel man does not. An adult man needs some basic nutrients to survive as a decently healthy adult. A growing child or a pregnant/nursing woman needs a lot more nutrients to survive healthily in the long term. And that’s not a “kollel” thing – I know a lot of poor people. People who can’t afford food on their table, people for whom a ketchup packet given by a friend is a major luxury. People who can’t afford milk for their kids. People who leave the heat on 50 degrees in the frigid winter in NY. People who live in tiny apartments (including studios) with their children and no one has any privacy. But again, this is on the FAMILY, not on the man.
My husband is up at 5 am. I get up at 6 (sorry, I’m pregnant and nursing, I need all the sleep I can get). We are all out of the house at 7. We both come home at 6 pm, feed/bathe the kids and put them to sleep. Then we both start our “second” job – I take care of the house, my husband davens, learns, does chesed etc. We try to get to sleep by 11 pm because I can’t survive on less and my husband has to drive so he needs a decent amount of sleep. Sundays are about davening, learning, chinuch for our kids, chesed etc.
That Kollel family where the husband works in the evening? So he’s working from 8 pm – 10 pm? 2 hours a day? That’s mesiras nefesh?
My FIL works 2 jobs to support his family. He usually wakes up around 3 am. He works for a long time at home, commutes 2-3 hours a day, works about 50-60 hours at his job, comes home and does more work. Forvive me for being unimpressed by the 5 am – 10:30 pm guy. That’s not that abnormal to me.
And not giving to Kollel doesn’t mean supporting Torah. It means not supporting a healthy adult man who is not taking responsibility for his family. I support schools, kiruv organizations…these are all increasing the amount of Torah learned.
Its interesting because my friends in Kollel are telling me how dire the situations in their Kollels are. Many of them haven’t been paid their stipend in months, if at all. Most kollelin are struggling to pay their basic bills, like electricity and water. So yes, they are asking for my money to run. Unfortunately for them, I know too many starving people.
CV – You have a lot to learn. The Kollel people are SUPPORTING the world. They are giving their supporters more than they are giving them! Rav Shach said you don’t even have to say Shkoiyach because you are giving him more than he gave you!
Rav Yisroel Salanter explains all the terrible curses in Sanhedrin for one that says “mai ahani li rabonon” that this is not a separate punishment, but rather, since they are supporting the world, if one says what do i need them for, memeilah he cannot have an existence!
There is no Tzedoka as important as supporting Lomdei Torah.
PBA, I’m not going to weigh in on kollel but re your line, “Hashem has enough money…”: when people are sick, of course they know Hashem is the ultimate Rofeh (there’s even a yehi ratzon to say before taking medication) yet they still engage in hishtadlus.
Where’s the line between bitachon and “ein somchin al haneis”?
Kollel is not a right that you are entitled to – it is a something to be acquired through hard work and sacrifice. If you want to do it badly enough – you will find the way to do it on your own. That is how I determine in my mind who should be sitting and learning. When I got married – I knew I wanted a husband sitting and learning for a long time – but my parents had barely enough money for themselves and I didn’t dream of asking them for anything. I got an education, a job, and a great guy – who learned in Kollel for 15 years. We actually gave our parents money when they needed it. I have many friends who did the same thing. My husband would not go out with any girls whose parents suggested that they go on programs and he didn’t demand support from anybody. We both didn’t feel that it was anybodys but our own responsibility to support us. We didn’t ask anybody for money to buy a house, a car – or anything. B”H – Hashem provided for us. My husband also (in addition to learning at least 14 hours a day) helped take care of the house, dr’s appts, and tried in every way to make my life easier as he appreciated what I was doing to help us continue in our chosen lifestyle. He also did things on the side to earn money. IY”H when my children decide to get married – if they decide that they want to live a Kollel life – while I would love to help them out – and will if I can – they know that if they are old enough to get married – then they are old enough to figure out how to support their families. While I don’t believe that ‘I’ was responsible for providing for our family – and truly believe that Hashem is in charge – I did my Hishtadlus – got an education – and didn’t decide to be a Bais Yaakov teacher making $15K a year – and depend on handouts for the rest. We have to teach our children responsiblity – that Torah must be earned and is not just a free for all. For all these commenters who believe that it is the responsibility of the Klal to support Kollel – that is not when 90% of the Oilam decides to learn in Kollel without much struggle. Why should I kill myself all year working and then give money to a family where the wife works 3 hours a day – and is off in the summer – and buys more expensive food than I (because they are on food stamps). Not that we don’t give money to individuals in E”Y who are the real MCoys – we do – but when I see these young kollel couples going to florida on vacation – while their mother’s and father’s are working 2 jobs to support them – it makes my blood boil. As I’ve said before – it you take away all the govt programs and parental support – how many people currently in Kollel would still be there? Once you have your answer – those are the people that I believe should be the ones sitting and learning.
Thank you GAW.
Oh, it looks like my post yesterday didn’t go up. I guess 14 pages in one post is too much. Sorry mods, I’m trying to answer back to everyone,I’ll try to cut them up.
gavra:
My main issue was with this joke. To me this joke represents the lessening of the importance of learning Torah in the eyes of those that repeat it. Yes, not everyone is cut out to learn all day. Yes, some that do end up spending most of their time drinking coffee in the back. Yes, not everyone has the wherewithal to support their children in learning.
But this joke makes its rounds by everyone. I happen to know that my father heard this joke from someone who has two married sons that are the biggest masmidim and yirei shamayim I have ever met and although not exceptionally rich he does have the means of helping his children out. Does he? I don’t know. But that fact that he is repeating this joke to me is indicative of a lessening of his belief in the greatness of supporting Torah at least on some level. This is my problem.
SJS:
I don’t see what is wrong with saying that “a donation was given to kollel xyz in your honor”. We are encouraged to give tzeddaka in the zchus that something beneficial should happen.
Giving money to someone who is starving in front of you is because of ‘ein ma’avirin al hamitzvos’. I’m not 100% confident that this applies if the person is not directly in front of you. Meaning: If you know that your neighbor down the block doesn’t have food for Shabbos despite 3 jobs that he’s holding down or a kollel that is struggling on the opposite end of the blcok, I’m not sure that this is a problem of ‘ein ma’avirin’ and I think it would be halachically permissible to give the kollel your money and in my opinion more beneficial for everybody.
When you give a poor person money, you are helping one person. When you give a kollel money, you are helping everybody.
In regards to all the people you know living in difficult situations. If you had the chance to change your occupation in order to increase your income, would you? The people that choose to live a difficult life in order to learn Torah are choosing it. They can go out and work if they would just give up learning.
I wasn’t clear before, when I said ‘working from8-10 at night’.I meant going back for night seder, not actual work.
tzippi:
ein somchin al haneis only applies to someone who views the events as miraculous. Take R’ Chanina ben Dosa and Rava. Both of them made it rain but Rava was rebuked for being matriach Hashem and R’ Chanina ben Dosa was praised (Taanis 24b). The difference is because to R’ Chanina ben Dosa there is no difference between oil burning or vinegar burning- both are equally miraculous.
aposhitermaidel:
I think it is pretty clear that no one can actually demand to be supported by anybody else.
I think very few people would say that in general it should be OK for a couple to go to Florida on their parents blood.
In fact after you said:
IY”H when my children decide to get married – if they decide that they want to live a Kollel life – while I would love to help them out – and will if I can – they know that if they are old enough to get married – then they are old enough to figure out how to support their families.
I’m not sure anybody is disagreeing with you at all.
The only point that I’m really trying to make is that from the parents’perspective it is important that they do what ever is in their means to help their children learn even a little bit longer. Key word: within their means.
To World Saver
“Rav Shach said you don’t even have to say Shkoiyach because you are giving him more than he gave you!”
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I giving my money not for “Shkoiyach”
What make you think my grandchildren’s learning is less important?
What make you think paying for Yeshiva is not supporting Torah?
What make you think Kollel man has priority over my grandchildren?
When I was young I was working 20 hours a day during number of years to support my family.
Today I’m not young any more, but I still keep 2 jobs and I believe I have rights to make my own decision how to allocate my Tzedakah. At least I did not learn yet, that I obligated to give to particular Torah institution.
Maybe not to a particular Torah institution, but at least to Torah institution(s).
DH, I asked my husband last night how he was taught to give tzedaka (he spoke to our Rav in detail when we both started working and had actual money coming in). He said the basics of what our Rav said was:
1) Poor/starving people IN YOUR FAMILY
2) Poor/starving people IN YOUR CITY
3) People who need medical or other care
4) Chinuch institutions (AKA local schools or kiruv organizations)
5) Kollel
6) Other nice organizations that aren’t absolutely necessary (like Yad Batya L’Kallah)
Apparently, our Rav said help those who can’t help themselves first.
I guess you didn’t understand my point about the starving person. If a starving person comes up to you and says can I have some food, you don’t respond with “A donation has been made in your honor at XYZ Kollel.” That doesn’t help the starving person’s predicament. It won’t fill their stomach with food.
According to my friends in Kollel, Kollelim are suffering for money. Donations are way down. Stipends in many kollels have been cut or withheld. Clearly, they need physical money.
Derech Hamelech, if you’re talking about slipping the occasional 20, treating kids to a plane ticket home, etc. no tuition committee would have any issues. But the type of long-term serious support that is now in vogue sometimes DOES come at the expense of the tuition of children living at home, being able to help elderly parents, etc. If it is truly within their means, beautiful, but people have to really, really evaluate this.
SJSinNYC, some Rabbonim in our community spoke publicly about keeping the tzedakah within the area. Their discretionary funds are running on empty, and people need their help. I haven’t donated a penny to a kollel in years, and that likely won’t change.
By the way, I ran into your husband yesterday while dropping off my kids 🙂
Hey Feif, I didn’t realize I know! Hmm, now who are you? LOL
SJS:
That is ‘aniyei ircha kodmin’. So now that you got your psak, I’ll address the second thing you mentioned since the first is not negotiable anymore for you.
I did answer your second point according to what you meant but maybe I wasn’t clear. Let’s say you calculate that after all your needs are met you will only have $10 for tzeddaka. On one side of your block is a poor family, on the other side is a struggling kollel. Unless you pass the poor person in the street (in which case the din of ein ma’avirin would apply), I would have told you (before you got your psak) that it is more beneficial to give the money to the kollel in the zchus of the poor family.
In this way you are helping the poor family specifically and the entire klal at the same time by helping a person learn more Torah through your tzeddaka. That’s what I meant.
I’ve already brought the Chofetz Chaim in an earlier post explaining his views on those ABLE to support Torah. If you don’t feel you fall under this category then I don’t think there is any problem.
tzippi:
The tone of your posts suggests that we are in disagreement, but I’m not sure what point you are disagreeing on with me. Can you clarify this please?
Rav Shach said you don’t even have to say Shkoiyach because you are giving him more than he gave you!
I find it hard to believe that Rav Shach would say that you don’t have to say “thank you” to someone when they give you money. Furthermore, I find it hard to believe that Rav Shach would allow someone learning in Kollel to develop an entitlement attitude as in “it’s due to me.”
The Wolf (who says “thank you” to people even when they are being paid to do their job.)
“I find it hard to believe that Rav Shach would say that you don’t have to say “thank you” to someone when they give you money.”
They are not giving money to the collector. The collector is merely an agent for the Torah, and not the beneficiary.
They are not giving money to the collector. The collector is merely an agent for the Torah, and not the beneficiary.
Do you really believe that?
If you were collecting for [insert favorite cause here] and someone gave you a donation for that cause, you wouldn’t say “thank you?” even if you aren’t a beneficiary of the cause?
The Wolf
“Do you really believe that?”
100%.
I would say thank you. But what I told you before is the answer to what Rav Schach’s basis was. Another answer is that the giver should be thanking the collector for being given the opportunity to give.
Question: Does anyone here believe these types of threads contribute anything to their understanding of the topic at hand or for anyt hing else?
fabie: Derech HaMelech has definitely been helpful to my understanding of these issues.
If one really has Bitachon, then one should really have Yireh. Bitachon and Yireh are two sides of the same coin. Hashem is controlling your life in all ways, plus and minus.
What irks many is when people talk greatly about Bitachon but don’t seem to have the same Yireh. If you believe that “Hashem will provide” then you should beleive that Hashem will punish.
MDG
I don’t disagree with you per se, but there is a little red sefer called Mitzvos HaBitachon. It is more or less a likut from all over the place.
In it he brings how a person who has bitachon will be protected from din based on the pasuk in Tehillim 32:10.
I’m not saying that a person doesn’t need to do at least some type of zecher l’hishtadlus.
If one agrees to support thier son-in-law that’s his choice.( he does’nt need to agree) Ultimately, the responsibility to have a plan how to support themselves is on the couple who are willing to sacrifice for Torah
first of all, you can all give tzedakah to causes that you think are important.
but, it is possible for someone to have bitchon and not expect to take money from parents and in-laws. i know people where wife works a little (not to make herself ragged; husband learns and tutors or other little jobs and they have bitachon for rest. and Hashem does give them money without them going begging. (ex. $150,000 yerusha – the couple nevern knew person was rich or expected that money). and Hashem has many means to help, and nobody should help if not important to them. i too would give first to starving, sick, etc. families.
amt. of hishtadlus is dependent on many factors – no clear cut answer for all.
g_a_w:
Sola Fide?!
Well he’s not getting saved from eternal gehenom over here.
I’ll be honest, I don’t really understand it so well. It’s brought a number of times from different places if I remember correctly. I looked it up for a second and found one maymar that is brought from the magid mimezeritch explaining how someone who has bitachon in Hashem attatches himself to the midah of chesed and so he gets only chesed. Someone who always has yiras ha’onesh attatches himself to midas hadin and so he gets shefa from there.
What happens to all his aveiros? I have no idea. There has to be some poreias choyv somewhere, I would think. But I can’t argue with the magid and whoever else he brings.
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