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I fear that the frum community may be on the brink of a big chillul Hashem if the mayor decides to make spot visits to shuls. For inexplicable reasons, shuls at least in Midwood that I have attended have become very lax in any form of protection. The crowds are large, greater than the limit that as far as I know has not changed, there are few masks and in some places I don’t even see hand sanitizer. We don’t know for sure if protective measures make a difference, but if there are raids on Yom Kippur where I suspect the above scenario will repeat itself, it would be a big Chillul Hashem and I do not know why rabbanim have either not considered this or have and rejected the concern.
@ Moshe, that is what the Jerk of a Mayor is worried about. who cares what this lame duck opinion is, there is shooting in the streets, the city finances are in shambles and people are leaving the city in droves, he managed to undo 25 years of progress.
Let him take his opinion and……………………………While I will agree with you that shuls should be taking more serious precautions, there is no way DeBlasio is going to have the police “raid” shuls on Yom Kippur. That would be political suicide. Hopefully all the tefillos of Yom Kippur and aseres yime teshuva will be enough to keep our community from getting hit hard again.
moshe , why dont you respectfully ask the rav of that shul to explain his hanhaga ? instead of asking us coffe room why the rav…
I agree with you 100% a shul I went to did not have a mask in sight and most shuls don’t require them they may give a hand sanitizer but that’s it. they may have signs but they’re not followed 100%. Bottom line there is a lot of corona in the frum communities i can assure you that.
BK 613: Do you really believe that DB cares any longer about “political suicide” ?? He is so detached from the reality of what is happening in NYC and has a tin ear for the anti-Semitic tropes he invokes which are just as bad as those we are hearing from the fringes of the far right.
Quote from NYPost article: “The Health Department will ramp up inspections in the areas to assure mask compliance and social distancing practices, the department said in a press release.
The measures could come as early as Tuesday. If cases continue to rise, the city will consider banning all gatherings of more than 10 people; issuing fines to those refusing to wear a mask when offered; closing private schools and care centers; and shutting down non-essential businesses.”As I said earlier DeBlasio wouldn’t dare interfere with Shuls on Yom Kippur. He cares more about his political career than trying to deal with COVID.
FYI there is anews story on fox news today discussing that masks were said to be useless indoors in crowds but that they enforce it because they need people tho feel like they are doing something.
This scenario is playing out in both Monsey and lakewood as well. This with a sharp rise in infection and hospitalization . It is my opinion that if there is increased enforcement we have no one to blame but ourselves. It makes no difference if you think this is a crock or if masks are ineffective. They are looking for scapegoats and protestors are Teflon. Next place they look is at us. Let’s not be an easy target
Yes, i strongly agree.
@ Gadolhadorah:
Have you ever considered that there might be at least some truth in at least some of what you simply dismiss as “anti-Semitic tropes”? That criticism, even from hostile sources, can be at least in-part legitimate? That we ignore and respond reflexively to it at our own peril, <i>Rakhmana litslan</i>?
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As best as I am aware, minimizing indoor contact of extended periods of time is by far the most critical precaution for minimizing the transmission of the Wuhan (“COVID”) virus.
Hand sanitizer would probably fall near the bottom of the list of priorities here. Consider:
– Hand sanitizer should only be resorted-to when thorough washing with soap and water (preferably warm) are not available;
– One should not touch one’s face or food at any time without first assuring that one’s hands are properly clean or donning clean gloves (that have not been contaminated by handling);
– Shaking hands and other forms of physical social contact should be altogether avoided.Whether it is a Hillul ha-Shem or a Kiddush ha-Shem is a political question. If you are “blue” you probably believe that the measures to stop Covid19 are matters of pikuach nefesh, and the government is acting reasonably to fulfill their duties under the public health laws. If you are “red” you probably feel that Covid19 is not a serious public health threat, except for people who due to age or infirmity should probably not be going out in public to begin with, and the the actions of people such as the New York City mayor are the acts of a bigoted tyrant using the pretext of public health to crack down on he considers to be his enemies. If you are “red”, then davening in shul without a mask is a courageous act of civil disobedience against an unjust government, and as such is a kiddush-ha-Shem (though like many acts of civil disobedience, perhaps a bit foolhardy).
In a city such as Baltimore, where the local Vaad ha-Rabbanim is issuing restrictions going far beyond those of the government (and observed by most but not all shuls), it could be argued that following regulations issued by the local Vaad (which is “our” government) is mandated by halacha even if those issuing the regulations are misguided and poorly advised in their secular knowledge (though no one would accuse them of having an ulterior motive).
One should note that in many circles, proper dress includes useless items such as a necktie, so it seems can go along with adding a useless mask, especially if it matches the useless necktie. One should note that while the utility of a mask to prevent Covid19 is debateable, there are reports from the southern hemisphere (whose winters occur during our summers) that mask wearing reduces flu and colds, and there is a possibility that masks will become part of standard fashion.
Also, Re: “far right”:
the Overton Window has been shifted so far toward “Woke” insanity that in some cases, views that not even a decade ago were still considered well within the mainstream (and even espoused by Democrats as prominent as Bill and Hillary Clinton, Paul Krugman and Barack Obama) are now dismissed as “far right”. As with “racism”, “sexism”, and any number of other epithets used to shut-down discussion and enforce dogma, to use “far-right” unironically (or at least without considerable qualification) is to adopt the language of the enemy. Once one has done that, one has conceded.
The OP expresses legitimate concerns. The near-complete disregard for taking precautions that I personally witness in the Haredi community (and which would appear to prevail throughout at least vast segments thereof) seems no better than the hysteria and excesses we see at the other extreme. Neither seem prudent or grounded in reality. (And it is fairly apparent that the latter is in at least large part driven by and certainly exploited for what is quite clearly blatantly hypocritical political opportunism.) The reasonable approach, I am convinced, would lie somewhere between these two extremes.
“The near-complete disregard for taking precautions that I personally witness in the Haredi community ”
Ahh, my favorite misspeak. If you mean tri state haredi community than please say so. These generalizations are beyond fake news.
Syag -“FYI there is a news story on fox news today discussing that masks were said to be useless indoors in crowds but that they enforce it because they need people tho feel like they are doing something.”
Now you’re saying Fox news is also Fake News!
From the CDC:
“Evidence for Mask Usage:
Masks are recommended as a simple barrier to help prevent respiratory droplets from traveling into the air and onto other people when the person wearing the mask coughs, sneezes, talks, or raises their voice. This is called source control. This recommendation is based on what we know about the role respiratory droplets play in the spread of the virus that causes COVID-19, paired with emerging evidence from clinical and laboratory studies that shows masks reduce the spray of droplets when worn over the nose and mouth. COVID-19 spreads mainly among people who are in close contact with one another (within about 6 feet), so the use of masks is particularly important in settings where people are close to each other or where social distancing is difficult to maintain”If the frum tzibur in the NY metro areas wanted to shut down the shuls and yeshivas, they couldn’t have done a better job than reported here on the pages of YWN over the past week or so. When you have a mayor/governor belatedly trying to look like they are aggressively taking action to slow the infection rate with simple mask/social distancing enforcement and segments of the frum tzibur following the lead of the Trumpkopf rather than his public health advisors, this iis a trainwreck that may play out over yom kippur.
GH -” taking action to slow the infection rate with simple mask/social distancing enforcement and segments of the frum tzibur following the lead of the Trumpkopf rather than his public health advisors, this iis a trainwreck that may play out over”
Another lie, right before YK.
I just saw an interview with the President and he said he sees most people in his rallies are wearing Masks.
You must work for the Fake News that only focus on the Few that Don’t!Not worth responding to trolls…..if you watched the videos of the rallies where the cameras spin around to the attendees in the audience (not the props standing behind the podium), you would see reality. And no, I don’t work for any “news” outlet. It would be too depressing. Hopefully, you will remain healthy over yom tov. We continue to need comic relief here.
The near-complete disregard for taking precautions that I personally witness in the particular Haredi communities in NYC that I am familiar with.
Is that clearer?
Is it clearer? It might be more honest, isn’t that important to you? I mean i would guess it is still lashon hora but on considerably less people. So that’s your silver lining.
Unhealthy: Turn on your TV now to OAN or Fox. They have live coverage of the Trumpkopf’s Harrisburg PA rally. The 40 or so props (aka people) behind him are Allwearing masks. Then watch as the cameras rotate 180 degreess occasionally and show the audience in front of the podium.. Several thousand packed together. No distancing and virtually no masks. But don’t believe your own eyes. The deep staters at OAN and FOX are photo-shopping out all the masks to make them invisible.
GH -“The 40 or so props (aka people) behind him are Allwearing masks.”
I posted this before – only the Anti-Trump guys follow his Rallies & his every Word.
Even if your post is true, he believes people should wear them. That’s why 40 behind him are wearing them.
But he also believes in Freedom – so he won’t force it on the attendees.
I guess the DemonCrats believe in forcing e/o, just like in Nazi Germany!“Come to think of it, what valid rationale was there to ease restrictions? Because people got tired of them?”
No, there were actual reasons but everyone is so sure that their comfort level is the right one that they consider everyone else either lax or machmir (sounds familiar, no?)
I thank yoy for your respectful tone and i have a question that i mean respectfully as well.
Way back in the beginning the plan was to have lockdown to flatten the curve and hopefully postpone much of the illness until there was more understanding and treatment. The reacurrance were expected and part of the plan. It never occurred to me it would be otherwise as it was said clearly in early spring. Do you think people forgot this, didn’t hear it originally, or do we humans just tend to fall into a pattern of blame and divisiveness whenever Hashem is wishing we would unite and look His way? I think the latter but im curious what you think.
Syag, the original intention was to flatten the curve so as not to completely overwhelm hospitals and other medical facilities . I agree with you that these lockdowns were never intended to be long term as recurrences of the virus were anticipated.
While the rate of infections has had spurts, due to our increased treatment knowledge base, the percentage of deaths and hospitalizations keeps dropping.
So, should the lockdowns be ended? Yes as they really aren’t based on science . A Federal judge last week ruled that lockdowns issued by Penn Governor Wolfe were unconstitutional as they violated First Amendment ( freedom of assembly). The judge said the lockdown was arbitrary, not science based as the governor allowed protests with no distancing while sharply limiting or banning other activities. And the lockdowns, by keeping people out of work and sick( noncovid ) patients away from their doctors is causing great damage.
So, should people keep wearing masks and social distancing? I would say yes , if only to be on the safe sideAJ- thank you, i really appreciate your post. My question was not about lock down or masks tho, i am just trying to get to the core of some of the blame game. Deliberately leaving masks aside, i ferl like many posters are expressing surprise at the new cases as if they thought the virus should have ended with lock down when i clearly remember being told we would absolutely have more and more but hopefully with better therapeutics.
Whatever It may be. Nature, science, government, or conspiracy, we are facing a very, very difficult year.
whats wrong with us. why cant we just put on a mask. whether we think it helps or not are we really willing to put ourselves or others in a safek pikuach nefesh because we aren’t going to be comfortable. seriously, grow up people!!!!!!!!!
why do we have to cause all this hate to ourself. we cant do wrong and then call the people who call us out on it a anti semite.
just do what the health professionals say. you rely on them about questons of whether we should fast n yom kippur, why not rely on them when they say to wear a mask. do you really think that you know better then them?
we should all be safe and have a gmar chasima tova and be written in the book of lie this year.
a gut yom tovMoshe- i have no particular reply, but to contribute to your respectful response i will add this. In regard to the elderly, i have fought loudly with a few who do as you speak. Their responses were all versions of this: “i am dying of lonliness and isolation. It is no longer a maybe, i have had great decline. I would rather be among life than the living if those are my only 2 choices”
Somewhat heartbreaking. I hope that helps with your genuine question of concern. May they and we all be blessed with gezunt and arichas yamim!
Syag: You articulate one of the most tragic side-effects of the various efforts to slow the spread of the virus with protocols that we really aren’t sure how effective they are although we know they do slow the spread. Until a vaccine is widely available and used, there would be a real solution but by using masks and social distancing, the timeline may be shortened and the adverse mental health effects will be mitigated more rapidly
We have to keep in mind that Covid is a marathon, not a sprint. In all likelihood it will be with us for years to come. It is not sustainable to be in a constant state of panic for years. Therefore I don’t agree with those that reccommend full mask wearing and social distancing even over the last few months when in Lakewood and NY cases were almost nonexistent. That being said now that it seems we are seeing a new surge it is important for us to go back to masking and distancing until cases are under control again.
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