Crazy Speed At Parts Of Davening Blow My Mind

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    Why does Pitum Hakitores on Shabbos morning after mussaf (starting with kaveh ending lman achei…) go sooo quick? (I’m talkng Nusach Ashkinaz, but Nusach Sfard speeds too)

    There may be other examples. But so many shuls that daven at a normal or even slow pace, rush through this part. Sometimes I am barely half way through when the chazan bellows out Lman Achai blah blah blah, the guy never said every word since it isn’t humanly possible to mouth that many words within that many seconds.

    In some shuls vhu rachum on Mondays and Thursdays makes the cut. Use a stop watch and then divide by how many words there are (if you care to). Some guys at the amud clearly are cheating.

    Back to karbanas, it seems to me that the younger chazanim are the ones that typically shout Lman Achi… the quickest. The older folk take a bit more time.

    I was thinking, once their at it, try this. The second the chazan finishes keduasha after mussaf and the crowd says amen, loudly bellow: Lman Achay…. it’s a little funny, but it makes sense, your not saying it anyway…I think that would be a fine minhag.

    The Frumguy

    I agree with you and there are so many other places where speed takes over. I don’t think that it’s proper to do “funny” things in a shul in order to disrupt the tefillah.

    I would also mention the daily first brocha of Krias Shema after Yishtabach – usually way too fast. Since pronouncing Shema correctly is me’akev in being yotzei, so too are the brochas – they must be pronounced as clearly as the Shema itself.


    Aleinu. I absolutely cannot fathom how, in just about every Minyan I’ve ever been in, people finish it in half the time that I can.


    Stay home. Or become a mooney. Those are your options.

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕

    Option 3: daven for the amud.

    The Frumguy

    I’m sure you know what happens if you “daven for the amud” just a wee bit too slow…

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕

    It’s okay, by then the guys I’d be nervous about are already at kiddush club.


    I’ve never been in a shul that could say pitum haketores faster than me.


    The Frumguy: I hope you realize I was not serious. Its a joke. But it would make a point. Some guys say pitum hakitores quick. Other guys are so quick that before they start, their done. Their THAT quick.


    The minyanim where I daven:

    1. Weekday shacharit: nusach Sfard, from Rabbe Yishmael to the end: 30 – 33 minutes, depending on who’s davening for the amud.

    2. Weekday arvit: 8 – 10 minutes, an extra three minutes if the Rav is there.

    3. Shabbat morning: nusach Sfard, from brachot to the end (includes Anim Zmerot) – about 90 minutes, give or take a few, depending on the length of the parsha and the baal koreh.

    I go back to America and I can’t handle the 2.5 – 3 hour Shabbat morning davening anymore. I sit and squirm, unless I get to a nice hashkama minyan.


    I, too, am put off by lengthy Shabbos davening. Note to Sheluchei Tzibbur: Kedushah has a nusach. Use it. I don’t know how ancient the nusach is but it probably predates MBD.


    No option 3. Its slow enough already without giving these guys control. Doesn’t any shul have rules anymore that everyone has to abide by, or is it a rule that shuls are a free for all?


    People daven at different paces and some people can speak faster than others. Just because you can’t say something fast doesn’t mean that other people cannot.


    I wonder if there are any other women out there who sometimes prefer to daven on Shabbos in the comfort & privacy of their own home, at their own pace, when the other option is davening with a minyan that mysteriously decides to drag out some parts of the Tefillah interminably and then speeds through other parts as if they have the taliban on their tails.


    dragging out and then Talibaning. Lol. Yes, why do some parts take forever and some fly?

    Shopping613 🌠

    I was once at a minyan that where I would start the hallelukah with them but somehow after two lines of me saying it, they were done. I could never figure that out…and oyvovoy if you sneezed for a second, you missed a whole brocha, and the bathroom, half of davening I’m sure would be done when you came out….

    It was ridiculous….


    “Everyone complains about the minyan but no one does anything about it”

    Menachem Twain

    Patur Aval Assur

    Berachos 34a:

    ??? ???? ???? ?????? ??? ???? ???? ????? ???? ??? ?????? ???? ????? ???? ???? ???? ?? ??????? ????? ??? ???? ??? ?? ??? ??? ???? ????? ???? ???? ????? ????? ??? ?? ?????? ???? ??? ?????? ????? ???’ ??? ???? ?????? ??? ???? ???? ????? ???? ??? ?????? ???? ???? ???? ???? ???? ?? ??????? ??? ???? ??? ?? ??? ??? ???? ???? ???? ???? ????? ????? ?-? ?? ??? ?? ??

    YW Moderator-42

    One is supposed to be extra careful to pronounce every word of pitom haktores so as not to chas v’shalom be “chiser achas m’kol samoneha”. This is why many peopke only say it on Shabbos and Yom Tov because they are afraid that during the week they will rush it.


    I find that in some shuls that are militant about saying tachanun are somehow very shtark in the beginning elokaynu … and end uzraynu.. but in the middle especially on a mon or thurs they take on chassidishe minhagim.


    Yes, there is an inyan to make sure that you do not miss a word of pitom haktores because when they would burn the incense in the beis hamikdash, if one ingredient was missing, that person gets the death penalty (as stated in that same pitom haktores for those who say it slow enough to know)

    Since we have prayer in place of karbanos,by missing a word in a sense it is similar.

    This is why ashkinazic minhag is to skip it altogether only saying it on days when we have more time like shabbos and yom tov.

    It is sickening that in so many places it is read at supersonic speed. Why sickening? because the whole reason in the first place that it was pushed off to shabbos was because there is less of a rush so it can be said properly. Rushing through it goes against the whole thing and can chs vshalom cause danger. Who knows if someone was in a dangerous situation and missing one word weighed down the scales in heaven…. after all it does say it can cause this.

    What are you gonna do??


    I am sure when you take the amud you will follow the halacha which says not to be a tircha dtzeiburah! there are many famous roshei Yeshivas who when davening for the amud would obviously keep the halacha. Unfortunately had some of our posters davened with the roshei yeshivas they would find the need to criticize them on the coffee room.

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