August 21, 2008 2:14 pm at 2:14 pm #621234
BTW, just to be clear, my previous comment goes both ways. If a very frum girl sees that the guy opens the door for her, it will be the same response as above (obviously in reverse.)August 21, 2008 4:18 pm at 4:18 pm #621235Chuck SchwabParticipant
I remember my dating days… I actually asked my Rebi at that time. I was told opening the door “is a moderne zach vus kumt fun der nochrim, un mir tut es nit.” And this was already back in time. Nowadays I would imagine the young fellows, as the generations are getting weaker, are probably a foot deeper in this. A reminder of where it shtams from is never a bad idea.August 21, 2008 5:00 pm at 5:00 pm #621236cherrybimParticipant
Real yeshiveshe men with the right hashkafos aren’t wasting their time and showing off their foolishness and ignorance on the internet.
The “machmir boys” prowl the internet and draw unsuspecting women into conversation.
They are privy and have opinions on many untznius things. Where are they getting it from? Not the bais medresh. Are they trying to release their guilt here?
Like was said on other YW discussions, these “machmir boys” are getting their jollies and want to get a reaction, especially from women.
They can’t learn, they can’t put two sentences together that are grammatically correct. Were they born in America?
They are immoral people and unsuspecting women are should be alerted to the danger associated with these internet predators and imposters.August 21, 2008 5:17 pm at 5:17 pm #621237Pashuteh YidMember
UJM, not only are your completely wrong about opening a door and the like, but you make a chillul hashem in public when you talk with the tone of voice you do about AMerican customs. Anybody, frum or non-frum or not even Jewish can be reading this site. The kindness and customs of the USA are why you are in yeshiva. The Russians and Nazis weren’t so kind. Have a little hakaras hatov.
Please look up the gemara in Yuma 86 hechi domi chilul hashem, and see that when one doesn’t speak bnachas im habriyos, that is the greatest chillul hashem even if he is a great talmid chochiom. Talk with derech eretz about this wonderful country and the outstanding menschalchkeit and kindness that is the norm in the USA.
Second, as far as halacha, you are also totally wrong. The issur of walking behind a woman is because of histaklus. But on a date, histaklus is permitted (within reason), as the shulcham oruch says it is permitted to look over a woman to see if you find her suitable to marry. That is the whole point of a date, so if you are behind her for a minute to walk her to the door and protect her from any intruders, it is totally mutar. Even if it’s not a date, but just giving a ride to a stranger or a friend of your children, you should walk to the door.
Third, as far a chivalry is concerned, whatever happened to the gemara mechabda yoser migufo??? If you don’t like a gemara you cross it out with a big black magic marker?
Fourth, the gemara in kiddushin tells us that a certain amora didn’t want his mother to walk on rocky or hard ground, so he had her walk the whole way on his hands. Why would the kovod to a wife be different?
Fifth, The Meiri in Bava Kamma says that the reason whay many of the halachos of ovdei kochavim don’t apply today is because the other religions have nimusim (manners). There is no shame in learning from the manners of other cultures.
Sixth, what about the gemara in Brachos that certain tannaim said, oheiv ani es hamidayim, and oheiv ani es hkaldiyim (I recall), because they have certain nice practices,
Seventh, what about gemara that says we learn kibuid av vaem from dama ben nesina, an idol worshipper?
When the practice of a country in certain inyanim is positive, we appreciate it and imitate it and praise them for it. This is the way of chazal.
The ikar of Torah is menschlachkeit. You seem to use the Torah as a vehicle to validate your all-consuming anger. I believe you need to work out your issues, as they have nothing to do with the religion.August 21, 2008 5:56 pm at 5:56 pm #621238Will HillParticipant
Hey, you aren’t supposed to let the cat out of the bag! How will we now determine if the date really doesn’t hold from the door-opening chivalry or is just putting on a show, now that the secrets out?August 21, 2008 6:39 pm at 6:39 pm #621239
My two cents:
My initial reaction to some of these was “not on a first date”, but then, that’s based on the habits back in “my day” when you weren’t necessarily engaged after 5 dates.
Anyway here goes
1) going places like bowling or shooting pool on dates:
Not on a first date:
2) complimenting guy/girl on clothing (i.e. nice tie , or nice necklace) if Ok what date is it acceptable?
Depends on how the compliment is worded, but probably should be reserved for a point when you are deliberately trying to convey taht you see the relationship as progressing. i.e. probably not a first date.
3) guy walking girl out of car when returning from date:
Always. Basic mentschlachkeit.
4) sharing a portion of food when eating out
Only when you are both very comfortable with each other. Again, for those who would ask. What’s wrong with it? The answer is, nothing technically. But these things convey a sense of intimacy that shouldn’t be abused if you are not quite comfortable with other already.
5) Is it ever allowed to be asked to be taken home
As others have said already. There are probably more diplomatic ways to do it. The only reason I could see for disposing of the diplomacy is if the guy/girl does/says something beyond the realm of acceptability. Use your judgement.August 21, 2008 7:33 pm at 7:33 pm #621240chasidishekallahMember
boy am i glad to be chasidish..we haven’t got those dilemmas…!!August 21, 2008 7:34 pm at 7:34 pm #621241bored@workParticipant
These are all sensativities, and we cant decide them for someone else.
If a yeshiva boy would get thrown out of yeshiva for going bowling, or to a pool hall, why is it acceptable to bring a girl he is planning on building a bnb with, ok?
In Rav Folks book on engagement it is not proper to compliment one another, so why do u think it is acceptable on a date?
These are just comments, but again I cannot say rules for someone elseAugust 21, 2008 7:54 pm at 7:54 pm #621242Feif UnParticipant
Why is a pool hall a place where “bums” hang out, and pool a game that “bums” play? Pool is a game. That’s it. Plenty of people I know have a pool table in their basement. It’s no different from having a ping-pong table or air hockey or other such thing. Yes, people do hang out in pool halls. People also hang out in pizza shops. Is it now assur to go to a pizza shop? Pretty much anywhere you go, you can find unsavory types hanging out.August 21, 2008 7:57 pm at 7:57 pm #621243WolfishMusingsParticipant
For heaven’s sake… holding the door for *anyone* is just a nice thing to do. If I’m going through a door and I see someone else approaching, I hold it for them — male or female, young or old, Jew or non-Jew. Yeah, I’m sure that some of you will say that this is a “moderneh American zach,” but I look at it as good, old-fashioned kindness and being treated as you would want others to treat you.
The WolfAugust 21, 2008 8:10 pm at 8:10 pm #621244mlMember
When I was dating (Bh I am married now) I saw nothing wrong with opening the door.August 21, 2008 8:42 pm at 8:42 pm #621245
I think that the real question is why do we make up arbitrary things for guys to do. Protect the girls from intruders?! Get real! What does she do every day when she comes home from work or from a chasuna at night? Most friends don’t walk each other to the door, so who all of a sudden decided that its mentchlich? Waiting until she’s in the house is basic safety and menshlich. Many of the other points are halacha questions and not matters of opinion.August 21, 2008 8:59 pm at 8:59 pm #621246lesschumrasParticipant
Can anyone show me where it is assur to be a mensch?August 21, 2008 9:52 pm at 9:52 pm #621247
feif, and what about bars? Its just alchol, no different than what you could have at home? Nothing wrong with a bar too, you’d say?August 21, 2008 9:55 pm at 9:55 pm #621248
So the girl opening the car door for the guy should be the same courtesy; there is no reason that it must be the other way. I don’t see why the guy should be opening the car door for the girl rather than the girl open the car door for the guy.August 21, 2008 10:02 pm at 10:02 pm #621249
You seem to have become the expert on this obsession of yours about woman and blogs. Something about your writings don’t quite fit. One who sees guilt all over usually has something in his backyard. Is there something up your alley?August 21, 2008 10:09 pm at 10:09 pm #621250yoshiMember
1. Going bowling or playing mini golf is a great way to get to know the person because you are doing an activity together and that will make things more comfortable for both to open up. 2. Giving compliments on an outfit and such is a really sweet, all it will do is make the person feel nice, and is that really so bad, to make your date feel good about themselves? 3. Having someone open the door gives the girl the impression that this guy is polite and delightful. 4. Sharing food shows a certain closeness, and openness between the couple. It also initiates conversations on your likes and dislikes. 5. If the date isn’t going well, and you know it’s never going anywhere, I think it’s only fair to ask to be taken home. It will probably hurt the guy initially, but at least he wont have to go through a date with an uninterested girl, or go crazy until the shadchin calls. Just to have to go through all that time THEN be rejected would be a whole lot worse.August 21, 2008 10:24 pm at 10:24 pm #621251
If you have a pool table in your own home, you have control over who is playing with it. In a pool hall, you have people who are probably not wever going to be on your invitation list, coming in , smoking, drinking, cursing, etc. and our kids do not need to see this.August 21, 2008 10:44 pm at 10:44 pm #621252
“In Rav Folks book on engagement it is not proper to compliment one another, so why do u think it is acceptable on a date?”
I would not presume to speak for Rav Folks (?) or any other rav. But the fact that he personally feels it is not proper, does not make it the absolute halacha. Many rabbanim bring their own personal biases to their interpretation of what is proper. There was a rav who was extremely makpid not to speak to women too much. One day he met (I believe it was ) Bruriah the wife of Rabbi Meir, and asked her how to get to a certain town. He actually said “What road should a person take in order to get to Lyddah(I think that was the name)?” She immediately chided him, reminding him that he preaches that it is assur to speak too much to women, and that he SHOULD have been more brief and said, “By which to Lyddah?”
The point is, not everything said by a particular rov who comes from a mindset built on his own life experiences, is necessarily the halacha. It may be, or it may be his own specific hashkafa. Anyone who believes that an engaged chosson and kallah should not compliment each other, is possibly a person who never believes in giving compliments, period. There are plenty of people who are emotionally withdrawn and unaffectionate in that way, and it breaks up a lot of marriages.August 21, 2008 11:14 pm at 11:14 pm #621253
Lets turn Question #5 around:
If the guy is uninterested, can he take the girl home early? And how does he break it?
Also, is it any different if it were the other way around (girl uninterested)? And why?August 21, 2008 11:16 pm at 11:16 pm #621254
oomis1105 is misquoting the gemara in eruvin 42b, it does not say that Bruria’s claim was that R’ Yossi haGlili was hypocritical but rather that the Chazal say not to speak excessively with women. It is true for everyone.August 21, 2008 11:27 pm at 11:27 pm #621255
cherrybim sounds like he wants all the women on the blogs to see him as their protector to come to. lolAugust 21, 2008 11:43 pm at 11:43 pm #621256madeofsteelMember
this is so ridiculous. It seems that if you were looking for some intellectual responses and advice on how to proceed if a) the guy does not possess the attribute of opening the car door and or not walking her to her door home and b)under what curcumstances it is ok to say no to a guy. If someone wanted real hard core ideas on dating, this woould not e the proper forum for it. maybe you guys, the squabling and bickering crew can meet in a baseball field and have it out.It is unfair to have this immature bickering about boats and grandparents. Grow up.August 22, 2008 2:54 am at 2:54 am #621257smartgalMember
to respond to ‘madeofsteel’ the reason I put this on here was to honestly get ppl’s opinions on the aforementioned, bec I think they are haskafa issues rather than halachic (besides maybe the sharing the dish) .
The word hashkafa actually means “viewpoint” so ppl’s hashkafos will be different just as no two ppl are coming from the same exact backgrounds & same upbringings , it is very likely for ppl to have differing viewpoints or hashkafos , nothing wrong with that we have to be able to hear out others’ opinions in a non-attacking manner! The viewpoint I was looking for was for pretty mainstream BY/yeshiva type bec thats what ‘category’ I wud fall into ..
Personally I wouldnt say no to a guy if he did not walk me out of the car , but usually the more sensitive guys the ones who can win middos awards type will definitely walk the girl out @ end of date . Its just a thoughtful gesture nothing deeper and nothing untznius about it-he doesnt have to walk behind her-they walk together !
The opening the cardoor wasn’t even my question bec thats a given that its done @ least in my dating circles.
To the guy who suggested that the girls open the doors for the guys do u also want to reverse the whole dating roles, i.e. should the girl pick up the guy from his house?, should she drive?, pay for the date? propose ?? etc.. maybe we should chip in dating can be expensive ,gas tolls food etc.. & we can alternate who drives take turns on the dates 🙂 JK!August 22, 2008 4:58 am at 4:58 am #621258
“oomis1105 is misquoting the gemara in eruvin 42b, it does not say that Bruria’s claim was that R’ Yossi haGlili was hypocritical but rather that the Chazal say not to speak excessively with women. It is true for everyone”
I don’t believe I used the expression “hypocritical,” that was your word. I said she CHIDED him, she gave him mussar, and that is exactly what she did. The mussar in and of itself was specifically because he was KNOWN for his stance on not speaking too much with women. Had it been another Rov asking for directions, I do not believe her response would have been the same.
This, however, is a digression from the original point that I was making, which was that specific rabbanim have personal hashkafos and biases (to which they are most certainly entitled, without question), but sometimes those personal hashkafos and NOT the metzius of the halacha cause them to express certain ideas that are not well-received. It is a foolish chosson indeed, who does not compliment the woman to whom he is engaged, and most especially so, if he is doing that because a rov wrote a sefer telling him to act that way. It is human nature to want to hear sincere compliments from the person who loves you. It’s good for one’s self-esteem, and and it shows that the other person appreciates you, or notices the pains you might have taken to look nice, make a nice meal, raise great children, etc. If one has not learned how to do this before getting married, he will not spontaneously be doing it afterward, either. The whole point of dating, besides the obvious inyan of finding one’s future spouse, is to teach our young people how to interrelate with someone of the opposite sex. How to be mannerly, how to talk nicely (and mean what one says), how to make the other person feel special, and how to learn what is important to oneself – these are all aspects of dating. Giving and graciously receiving a SINCERE compliment is an important social skill. Just my opinion.August 22, 2008 12:44 pm at 12:44 pm #621260SomeoneLikeYouMember
smartgal don’t joke…I actually had a date take me out and say “separate checks please”. I had to tell him I had no money (which i didn’t ) he then told me 9ok I will spot you now and you can pay me back when i drop you off…..
I guess I broke a rule here myself when i said ‘why don’t you just drop me off now.”
from then on I ALWAYS learned to have money, a credit card and a cell phone on me.August 22, 2008 1:25 pm at 1:25 pm #621261
Geshmakenstein asked why a guy has to walk a girl to the door if you wouldn’t do that for anyone else.
This is a valid point. Indeed, you can assure the gir’s safety by making sure she gets into her house as we all do for just about anyone else we drive home.
The answer, however, is becasue we submit to a differnt standard of “mentschlachkeit” when we date. There are numerous little things we do (or don’t do) once we are married that we would not have done when we were dating, or we wouldn’t have gotten a second date.
No need to worry. Once they are married, I assure you he will drop off his wife and simply watch her go into the house from the car.August 22, 2008 2:26 pm at 2:26 pm #621262Pashuteh YidMember
Smartgal, the guy should of course pay, but right after the date he should send an itemized bill to the shver, to get reimbursed, since anyway the shver will be paying for everything happily ever after.August 22, 2008 2:42 pm at 2:42 pm #621263
Why is it so ridiculous to chip in for the expenses and planning? The frum concept of dating is as a means to meet a spouse, not romance. If people would check the soap opera mind set by the door it would help more to resolve the shidduch crisis than all of nasi’s hype.August 22, 2008 4:07 pm at 4:07 pm #621264notsofrummieMember
I really wonder if you people actually left your house in the past 10 years. You guys speak about how smoky and trashy these bars are like a movie from the 80’s. In case your a bit behind, it is illegal to smoke in most of these establishments. And the bars your speak of, are not those trashy bar fighting with a blaring juke box kind of place. Ive been to plenty of nice trendy ‘bars’ that were not part of hotels. I dont understand the difference. honestly. explain it to me.
Also, define ‘hangout’ places. A few nice innocent people getting together and having a few drinks is bad. So, a few people hanging out at shul is also bad?August 22, 2008 4:25 pm at 4:25 pm #621265Mayan_DvashParticipant
About the girl opening the door for the guy: When I was dating, not all cars had power locks, so a guy had to open the door for the girl. While the guy was going around the car to the driver’s side, if the girl opened the driver’s lock, it was an indicator that she liked him.August 22, 2008 5:20 pm at 5:20 pm #621266Toras MosheParticipant
I think its a good idea for the girl to open up the door for the boys on dates because it is good practice for marriage.
Rambam writes in Laws of Interpersonal Relations, chapter 21, halacha 7: “We find that every woman performs five tasks for her husband. She spins, washes his face, hands, and legs, pours his drink, makes the bed, and serves him. There are six tasks some women do and some don’t: grind and bake and cook, wash, nurse children, and feed the animals.”August 22, 2008 10:35 pm at 10:35 pm #621268skatesMember
I am only asking this question because I really want to understand: why is it inappropriate to compliment eachother once engaged? I am asking in response to some comments that said that its okay to compliment on a date but not once engaged? why is is okay on a date and not once engaged? if once you decided that the significant other will I”H be your spouse, why can’t you compliment them?August 24, 2008 2:57 am at 2:57 am #621271JewessMember
…don’t forget to thank the person who opened up the door for you…August 24, 2008 3:43 am at 3:43 am #621272
You still can’t compliment your date even though she’s your kallah because she’s still an ervah to you. I recommand to all of you to read this read book called “Rules During the Engagement” written by Rabbi Pesach Eliyahu Falk.August 24, 2008 4:12 am at 4:12 am #621274Rabbi SchnichelleMember
I can’t believe that some of you are condoning things that are assur according to any orthodox rabbi!!! Obviously I’m not a rabbi. A rabbi would not be on the internet (even koshernet like i have!) You dont have to know too much to know what chaimberlin said. Ask da’as torah, not a bunch of no-names on the net. Dont think that that guy who claims to be a yeshiva guy is what he says he is. No yeshivish guy belongs bowling or eating out on a date. No good will come out of this lack of tznius. “can i compliment a strange girl who is on a date with me?” what is this? nursery class? what kind of dumb question is that? Ask a rav not the yeshiva world!!!!!August 24, 2008 4:23 am at 4:23 am #621275
You still can’t compliment your date even though she’s your kallah because she’s still an ervah to you.
1) Shok b’isha erva
2) Kol b”isha erva
2) Sei’ar b’ish erva
This is the first time I have ever heard my life that being a kallah is an erva.
I haven’t read this book, so I cannot intelligently comment on it, but having said that, anyone can write a book about anything, including a rabbi. Could someone please educate me as to the makor for a kallah being erva(not just the totally correct idea that a chosson and kallah have to be extra careful not to get caught up in hormones and emotions, which could lead them to be nichshal, but an actual makor that says the kallah is erva).August 24, 2008 4:35 am at 4:35 am #621276Toras MosheParticipant
And the Rambam, in an indication of how serious the matter is writes in halacha 10 “Any woman who does not do the tasks which she is obligated to do is forced, even with a stick.” The Rabad wrote in his meforesh on this ruling: “I have never heard of hitting a woman with a stick, but one reduces the necessities given to her and her food until she gives in.”August 24, 2008 4:53 am at 4:53 am #621277
Even without power locks, the guy could pop all the locks open with the key from the drivers side. And the girl could then hop into the car after opening her own door.August 24, 2008 3:48 pm at 3:48 pm #621279
Those 2 Rambam’s are very interesting. Yasher Koach for the Divrei Torah!
(It sure gives us leverage when negotiating with our wives!)August 24, 2008 8:27 pm at 8:27 pm #621280
Wow that is new to me that Rambam. I have to look up the mekoros you quoted. I guess times change but halacha always stays the same and relevant. Is it halacha l’maaisa that if a wife doesn’t clean her husbands feet (or serve him properly) he can beat her with a stick?? (Or at least deny her food/clothing per the Rabad.) That is really striking. Most people don’t know this Rambam obviously…August 24, 2008 9:17 pm at 9:17 pm #621281
*correction- the name of the book is Chosson & Kallah during their engagement.August 24, 2008 9:21 pm at 9:21 pm #621282
Torahis1: an ervah is someone (girl/lady/married lady/widow/etc.) who’s assur to a guy(who ISN’T related to her) . Your mother and sister is not an ervah to you cuz they’re not assur and they’re related to you!August 24, 2008 9:25 pm at 9:25 pm #621283
Wow, I wasn’t even aware that a wife was halachicly OBLIGATED to wash his face, hands, and legs, pour his drink, makes the bed, and serve him.August 24, 2008 11:39 pm at 11:39 pm #621284
Perhaps oomis1105 can be kind enough to the unlettered among us & cite a source for the contention that R’ Yossi was specifically known for his opinion on the conduct between man and woman?August 25, 2008 3:29 pm at 3:29 pm #621285squeakParticipant
Wow, chaimberliner, that’s as dumb a comment as they come. An ervah is one of the 15 arayos mentioned in the Torah (plus/minus the droshos of chazal). So your mother/sister/grandmother IS an ervah to you, but a stam isha is not (hence the title “penuya”). The issur ervah by a “strange girl” is from hilchos niddah. I’m assuming that you have never learned in Chaim Berlin.August 25, 2008 4:57 pm at 4:57 pm #621286jphoneMember
“oomis1105 is misquoting the gemara in eruvin 42b, it does not say that Bruria’s claim was that R’ Yossi haGlili was hypocritical but rather that the Chazal say not to speak excessively with women. It is true for everyone.”
I assume this is a reference to the Mishna in Avos “at tarbe sicha in isha…..”. It is noteworthy to see how the words “sicha” and “dibbur” are interpreted by chazal.August 25, 2008 6:22 pm at 6:22 pm #621287
oomis1105: “This is the first time I have ever heard my life that being a kallah is an erva.
I haven’t read this book, so I cannot intelligently comment on it, but having said that, anyone can write a book about anything, including a rabbi. Could someone please educate me as to the makor for a kallah being erva(not just the totally correct idea that a chosson and kallah have to be extra careful not to get caught up in hormones and emotions, which could lead them to be nichshal, but an actual makor that says the kallah is erva).”
Kalla b’lo bracha asura lebaala kenida (kesubos). Also any unmarried woman is assumed to be a nida which is an erva d’oraisa. Note that yichud is prohibited and has the severity of yichud d’oraisa due to her being a nida.August 25, 2008 7:10 pm at 7:10 pm #621288
Squeak and Torahis1
Yes, obviously chaimberliner is wrong when he failed to recognize that a mother or sister are Arayos.
Perhaps he was actually thinking of a different lomdus. While all of them (including the kallah) are assur to him., the kallah is a davar sheyesh lo matirin and for that reason we need to be machmir on complimenting her.August 25, 2008 8:26 pm at 8:26 pm #621289
“Perhaps oomis1105 can be kind enough to the unlettered among us & cite a source for the contention that R’ Yossi was specifically known for his opinion on the conduct between man and woman?”
I can’t cite a source, because I do not learn Gemarah. I was telling over something I was taught in Yeshivah, while learning Pikei Avos. I was taught that a Rov in Pirkei Avos Perek Aleph Mishnah 5, (whose name is Rabbi Yosi Ben Yochanan,and described as an Ish Yerushalayim) taught, “V’al tarbeh sicha im isha,” don’t converse excessively with a woman. My teacher THEN recounted the story with Beruriah, whom I was told gave mussar to that Rabbi for talking excessively to her when ansking for directions. I, by the way, am NOT the person who said it was R’ Yosi HaGlili. I did not mention any name but Beruriah’s. If I mis-posted any part of the story, I apologize, but it is how it was presented to me in Yeshivah that the person to whom she was giving mussar was well-knwon for having personal views about brevity of speech with a woman.
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