November 2, 2014 3:20 pm at 3:20 pm #1039795jewish sourceParticipant
Next date let your beard grow put on a up hat long rekel act frumm.
She will ask you what happened, tell her you will compromise on this if she compromises on that. That”s it situation handled peacefullyNovember 2, 2014 3:27 pm at 3:27 pm #1039796mft23Member
Very well said.November 2, 2014 3:39 pm at 3:39 pm #1039797
Why do you think he’s not already wearing a beard and hat and jacket?November 2, 2014 3:58 pm at 3:58 pm #1039798jewish sourceParticipant
Well said but the idea still stands. Wherever he is at let him change that directionNovember 2, 2014 4:19 pm at 4:19 pm #1039799writersoulParticipant
Syag: Absolutely. There is a difference between sensitivities that can be compromised on and cut-and-dry halacha.
That’s not what I was saying, however.
What I was saying was:
1) He is not the right person to say it to her.
2) He should ABSOLUTELY not frame it in terms of the shidduch.
3) If she were to change for his sake and not because she thought that it was the right thing to do, it would not be an altogether good thing and it would probably cause issues. (I’ll get back to this.)
4) He seemed like he had an attitude like, “oh, one quick word with a rebbetzin will solve everything, the question is whether I bring it up,” and I just wanted to make it clear that this was wrong wrong wrong.
Back to #3- Yes, it is better to fulfill halacha, obviously. And yes, even if she were to change for his sake, every time she would overcome her instinct to do the right thing would be a mitzvah and a prevention of an aveirah. I still don’t think, however, that this is the ideal scenario, given what I wrote in the last post. The poster who mentioned his wife’s case was not dealing with someone who would change for the sake of the guy she wanted to marry- she was already inspired, already working to change herself. If this girl is the same then that would be great. If not then starting from the bottom up would be much, much better.
That’s not to say that she can use “I haven’t found the right inspiration yet” as an excuse for not acting in accordance with halacha. Definitely not. The problem is specifically tying this particular practice with a specific tenai, a specific tit-for-tat. I just think that that’s a very unhealthy attitude to bring into a marriage.
(Though, of course, you’re talking to Little-Miss-Marriage-Expert here. As Linus Van Pelt would say, we all know about unmarried marriage counselors…)November 2, 2014 4:33 pm at 4:33 pm #1039800🍫Syag LchochmaParticipant
i get what you were saying, I just don’t think it applies to this. I also didn’t get the impression he had that attitude you expressed in #4. I think talking to a rebbitzen or rav may give you some insight as to what her attitude toward tznius/growth is in general, who knows.
I remembered after posting that there was something that my husband did (or didn’t do) that I really couldn’t “deal with”. When we talked about it he said, “If I change this now, it will be for you, because you asked. I agree that it is right and do believe I’ll get there, I just need more time”. This is very different than just becoming territorial or defensive, which we do as newlyweds but will never want to call it that.
I wouldn’t call myself an expert either, after all I’ve only done it once 😉 (B”H, BE”H)November 2, 2014 5:05 pm at 5:05 pm #1039801bp yiddParticipant
I have a rekel you can borrow if neededNovember 2, 2014 5:18 pm at 5:18 pm #1039802
Totally irrelevant to the conversationNovember 2, 2014 5:24 pm at 5:24 pm #1039803JosephParticipant
What is there was a kashrus issue where she sometimes ate out in a pareve/vegetarian restaurant that had no hechsher? Would this conversation be any different?November 2, 2014 5:30 pm at 5:30 pm #1039804
Yes. It is different. Because this is putting a so called hechsher in something which is assur. I’m not talking about people who are unfortunately being mechallel shabbos by texting anyway and this would MAYBE minimize it, I’m talking about people who think its muttar and will start texting on shabbos now.November 2, 2014 5:33 pm at 5:33 pm #1039805
Sorry wrong threadNovember 2, 2014 7:58 pm at 7:58 pm #1039806bp yiddParticipant
no its not jewish source advised him to put in a hat and rekel if needed i have one to borrow himNovember 3, 2014 3:54 am at 3:54 am #1039807squeakParticipant
Bad comparison joe. Instead, ask how the conversation would go if it was about a person who has a bad habit of biting her nails on Shabbos, or a guy who sometimes oversleeps shacharis.November 3, 2014 7:16 am at 7:16 am #1039808hodulashemParticipant
Are these “early stages” referring to just one date? sometimes a girl that is very makpid on tznius slips without realizing… I don’t know what the specific issue is, but let’s stick to the skirt issue as an example… a girl can be very makpid to cover her knees at all points. She has a great skirt that she knows covers her well, so she pulls it out of the cleaners bag, puts it on, retouches her hair an makeup and runs out the door… it’s very possible that it isn’t until she sits down in the car that she realizes that her skirt shrunk, or that she gained a few pounds since she last wore it and it doesn’t fit her the same way anymore… i’m not justifying the short skirt… i’m just saying that if you only saw this issue once -or even twice, give it another go! see if her wardrobe looks like this consistentlyNovember 3, 2014 2:24 pm at 2:24 pm #1039810
It’s a great dan lkaf zechus point, but I assume that a girl especially on a first date is not just grabbing something out if her closet and running out. And according g to op doesn’t seem to be an isolated incident. As many people have pointed out you have to know whats halacha and what’s just a certain lookNovember 5, 2014 1:41 am at 1:41 am #1039812BTGuyParticipant
If this young lady is totally wonderful is so many ways, then I have to assume the tznius issue may be a matter of community standards.
Additionally, her admirable qualities lend me to believe that she may not even be aware she is violating tznius. After all, I am sure she is not dating you in isolation of her fine family. They must know how she is dressing.
Perhaps the intermediary/shadchen can handle this point in a professional and non-offensive manner. I am sure it is a very common concern.
On the other hand, since I doubt she would flagrantly violate an acceptable level of tznius, maybe you possibly might have to adapt.
Her wanting to look appealing to you is not necessarily a fault on her part.
Rabbi Miller, zatzal, spoke about when the mon fell from shamayim in the midbar, something else came down too. It was makeup; enough make up to cover one eye (because that is all that they revealed).
Rabbi Miller went on to say it is very important for a wife to look attractive to her husband. A shidduch date may very well have elements that shadow that sentiment. She may have even been told to look more appealing than usual on her dates with you.
As I am sure you know, there were other times in our history where women were obliged to make the effort to look extra attractive; more than ordinary for their husbands because life was difficult. Again, a shidduch date may be an acceptable place to begin to display a small degree of that kind of sentiment.
I dont know the full situation, but it’s important to work with someone to try to get a handle on this very important standard as you proceed.
Hatzlacha!November 5, 2014 2:27 am at 2:27 am #1039813
You post some good thoughts. However, some so-called community standards are flagrantly against halacha unfortunately . And also the beautifying is supposed to be for her HUSBAND not a maybe potential shidduch. She should, if course, look great on a date, but not provocative.November 5, 2014 5:28 pm at 5:28 pm #1039816Baruch10901Participant
Have you actually proposed yet & does she want to be your wife?November 5, 2014 7:41 pm at 7:41 pm #1039817Humble_OpinionMember
@BMBochur777 I happen to know a very similar story that occurred.
A guy dated a girl quite a few times and was convinced that she was “The One”. There was one problem standing in his way of continuing their dating process; her tznius. He spoke to his rebbi and asked what he should do and he was told to confront her directly. He took her out on another date and put his feelings out on the table. He told her how much he appreciated all of her good and he felt their relationship was progressing etc. but then he explained that he needed his wife to uphold the halachos of tznius to his level. She was very willing to adhere and tey are married with a beautiful family.
Tznius is a very taboo subject in a girl’s life and even teachers don’t like to discuss it with them. When a guy speaks it over with a girl like a mentch, she will listen and you can be sure that if she is the kind of girl who wants to make her husband happy, it won’t be a shalom bayis issue in the future.
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