December 31, 2010 5:21 pm at 5:21 pm #727276OfcourseMember
aries2756, I cheerfully agree with a lot of what you said. IMHO, you’ve made many good points! We all have to Daven for the right guidance and Shlichim, and to be Zocheh for Hashem to send us more willing and understanding Shlichim to tirelessly guide and help all males and females, as necessary.December 31, 2010 5:35 pm at 5:35 pm #727277Yiddisha MamaMember
Is the “giving in” all one-sided? That means one is a winner and one is a loser. Who wants to be a loser all the time?December 31, 2010 5:36 pm at 5:36 pm #727278
sorry, please let me know what I said so I can be more careful.December 31, 2010 6:18 pm at 6:18 pm #727279
I was speaking generally.
I dont think he was spoiled or selfish, I think we just werent a match at the end of the day, as much as he wanted it to work. If you notice my wording in the original question: “at what point do you say, maybe we are just not meant to be?”
I realized that he was acting in such a way because he was torn. He wanted it to work yet he wanted to still live the life he had planned and envisioned for himself. Whatever the excuse may be, I am looking for someone (especially at age 27) who can work through their feelings and not act out in such a way, at which point I realized and subsequently told him this isnt going to work.
(Wow, I’m glad I shared that personal story…)December 31, 2010 8:11 pm at 8:11 pm #727280cshapiroMember
i guess uve never met the guys ive dated…lol :))January 2, 2011 12:55 am at 12:55 am #727281
Sac, I didn’t know your story so I wasn’t speaking specifically about you. I am speaking in general terms. Anyone who is not willing to compromise of make changes to in order to please their partner in a relationship and expects that their partner make all the concessions for THEM is indeed selfish and spoiled. WIVES are NOT mothers nor are they maids. HUSBANDS are not BUTLERS nor BANKERS. Spouses are partners and must care about each other as much if not more than they care about themselves.January 2, 2011 6:17 am at 6:17 am #727282
“On the other hand, Sac’s situation was completely different. She was dealing with an entirely spoiled and selfish individual”
Oh. Thought you were. My mistake.January 2, 2011 6:18 pm at 6:18 pm #727283
Sac, I apologize but obviously I “didn’t know your story” because you explained it later on. I only thought I understood your story from what you inferred being the only one giving in and making concessions. The problem with a situation such as yours IMHO, is that some shadchanim do not listen to their clients (and I am not talking about professional per se, just those who are dabbling or trying) and match you up with who THEY think will be perfect for you. Unfortunately they put two people into really difficult situations. Because although their personalities might match, their looks and height might match, and even their values might match, if their hopes and dreams are not on the same path what is the point. If someone is really looking for a learning boy and you set her up with a working boy and vice a versa, what is the point?
Two young people will like each other and start having feelings for each other only to realize that it can’t possibly work out because in their heart of hearts, one of them will have to give up their dream or the life they really wanted to live. How is this shadchan helping either of them? Both are very nice ehrlich individuals, you can’t say anything bad about either and yet, as much as they have in common the difference between them is as wide as an ocean.
Now the shadchan may say, so what? What’s the big deal, they should compromise. But it is not the shadchan’s life that we are talking about. It is not the shadchan that has to compromise about learning or working or who will be working. That is a huge compromise and a huge decision to make. THAT is a deal breaker and that is something that the shadchan should have known beforehand. Parents need to know this as well and need to discuss with their children whether this is a deal breaker or not. It is not fair to say “Yes” and then wait for one side or the other to give in on such a major issue.
Compromises can be worked out on whether you live in BP, Flatbush or elsewhere. Compromises can be worked out on a 1 bedroom or 2 bedroom apartment or whether they need a car the first year or not. Compromises can be worked out on many different issues. But when it comes to the basic lifestyle of how you want to live your life, that is really not up for negotiations.
Again Sac, I apologize, one is not selfish or spoiled when it comes to this issue or one similar to it. If you compromise on the basic foundation of marriage it will only lead to disaster. Hatzlocha to you and to him as well. You will both find the one that will complete you.January 2, 2011 8:15 pm at 8:15 pm #727284oomisParticipant
It always depends on the concessions being made. If you are giving in on what style of china patterns you like, that is nisht geferlach. If you are giving in on hashkafos that you previously thought were different, i.e. he suddenly wants to be supported, quit his job and learn full time, or vice versa, leave the Yeshivah and work full time, when you had discussed and settled the issue, or he presented as a guy who would never own a TV – because that is your hashkafa – and then insists on one, or vice versa, those are not kleinekeit. If she wants to live ONLY in the USA, and he said that he felt the same way, but then suddenly is only aliyah-minded, or vice versa, these are important issues.
My daughter will not have a pet in her home, especially a dog or cat. She has been redt many shidduchim with guys who want to have or do have a dog. Likewise, she will not date a smoker. So if he gave it up, and then suddenly wants to smoke again, it would be a deal-breaker. And these are not even major issues. being controlling IS a very major issue. If you are making concession on important things (like who gets to control the money and how it is spent), that raises red flags to me.January 2, 2011 9:10 pm at 9:10 pm #727285
No need to apologize, and I appreciate all your input.
Oh, we met on our own. So although I’d love nothing more than to blame this on an inept Shadchan… I cant 😉January 3, 2011 6:27 pm at 6:27 pm #727286bptParticipant
“Oh, we met on our own”
I would have posted in bold / italics. Possibly dropped the “Oh”, as it makes it sound somewhat less important than the rest of the post (and thread)
This is a huge admission on your part, and you should be very proud of it (for what its worth, I am)January 3, 2011 6:57 pm at 6:57 pm #727287
Not the first time.January 3, 2011 7:10 pm at 7:10 pm #727288dunnoMember
Good for you!January 3, 2011 7:21 pm at 7:21 pm #727289phrumMember
“When you are dating and you feel like you are making so many concessions just to make it work at what point do you say, maybe we are just not meant to be?”
I think it’s when one neeeds to ask this question in the CR, Sacrilege.January 3, 2011 7:42 pm at 7:42 pm #727290
Sacri- what a woman needs for a mate is a man with a good sense of intellect and wisdom, as he is ultimately going to be the Captain of the ship (of the home) – so if you are finding yourself uncomfortable with the amount of compromising and concessions you must make, then I’d say its a sign he is not for you, because if he were what you needed then his suggestions or say the concessions you make for it to “work” would be like so gratifying that its’ like a cool refreshing glass of water when one is thirsty. You’d be left with a feeling of “i am so glad that I am being taken down this road”. I gave up a lot of things when I got engaged, at my chassan’s gentle, hinting request. And I was so relieved in so many ways that he had such seichel.January 4, 2011 5:03 am at 5:03 am #727291miamigirl613Member
You should then reevaluate what is really important and if it’s something that is not going to change and really bothers you, then stop it. Better stop it sooner than later otherwise someone might get hurt even more later on.January 4, 2011 1:44 pm at 1:44 pm #727292Trying my bestMember
Ofcourse: From experience in helping in shidduchim, I’ve noticed the older single girls have way more abnormalities than the older guys.January 4, 2011 6:22 pm at 6:22 pm #727293
I think girls’ demands grow, but the guys just become crazy.January 4, 2011 7:11 pm at 7:11 pm #727294bptParticipant
the guys just become crazy.
This is true. Without my wife, I’d most likely still be living at home, and to be 30+ and still living with my mother, I’d be certifiable. (no offense, Ma)January 4, 2011 11:13 pm at 11:13 pm #727295mewhoParticipant
communication is the key!January 4, 2011 11:38 pm at 11:38 pm #727296Trying my bestMember
Sac, The guys might become crazy, I agree with that, but often the girls were crazy all along – which is worse in my opinion.January 5, 2011 12:32 am at 12:32 am #727297
I’m sure you have to beat off the girls with sentiments such as those.January 5, 2011 3:21 am at 3:21 am #727298
Trying my best, I agree. I see that the older a woman gets, and remains unmarried, albeit unfortunately, and unwillingly, she does often get baggage, a tough skin, just to name a few. They have to continue fighting their way through “the real world” as if like a man, just to survive. And yet suffer without a man to run home to, without a companion and its really tough.
A main complaint from men seeking single women who are older, is that the older single women get, the more the woman’s expectations of life tends to grow out of proportion. And ultimately older single women tend to lose touch with reality.January 5, 2011 4:05 am at 4:05 am #727299
I disagree. Obviously both need each other, but at the end of the day men are worse off without a partner.January 5, 2011 4:26 am at 4:26 am #727300OfcourseMember
tmb: ” I’ve noticed the older single girls have way more abnormalities than the older guys”
Sure. Kindly offer some examples.
Looking forward.January 5, 2011 3:39 pm at 3:39 pm #727301pumperMember
A woman can survive without a husband. She can cook, clean and do laundry for herself. True, she may develop certain character traits that she would not have had if she would have gotten married at 19. She may become a bit unrealistic, and picky. There are hardly traits that classify someone as “not normal”
On the other hand, a man who does not get married at 30-35 tends to be way off the beaten track. I wonder if this is because he did not get married, or he did not get married because of his “wackiness”January 5, 2011 6:31 pm at 6:31 pm #727302
Men seem to miss out on the social skills, the normal things a woman teaches them. The manners, the niceties, the taming of rough edges. There are many Rabbonim who lecture about this. I have heard them say, “I send the guy out on a date and when he comes back he is so confused that the woman doesn’t want to go out again. So I ask about the date and what I hear is geferluch. He has no social skills. He doesn’t know how to talk to a woman. He doesn’t know how to listen and take an interest in what she has to say. He doesn’t know how to ask questions or be interested in her life, etc.” So I had to start from square one and coach him how to handle a date.”
You can see this when you have single men for Shabbos meals. They tell the off colored jokes forgetting that they are sitting in mixed company. Their conversations revolve only about their own lives and problems and they take very little interest in whomever else is sitting at the table.
I am not talking about anyone in particular, this is a general perception about men who have never been married.January 5, 2011 6:41 pm at 6:41 pm #727303oomisParticipant
Aries, and off-color jokes are appropriate for same-gender company????
How can guys really have a clue about how to act or talk on a date, when they are separated from females for most of their lives? When we need to “coach” people on a regular basis, on how to be less awkward in mixed company, there is a real problem. Some people need help, because they are very shy, but this seems to be a pervasive situation.January 6, 2011 12:20 am at 12:20 am #727304
aries i like what you wrote.
First time ever!January 12, 2011 9:22 pm at 9:22 pm #727305Divorced_GuyMember
I know many fine men who have excellent social skills and vice versa many women who don’t. It’s hard to generalize about these things.
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