September 27, 2012 3:07 am at 3:07 am #604987
My cousin is dating a guy that has a history. On the surface great guy. Yichus, good family , socially there… Etc…
My freind called me to warn me about the guy.. Not a top learner, used to mess around in school, yeshiva klozter… He has also been engaged before which my cousin doesn’t know…, what else is he hiding?
I want to break it off ASAP!!!
It makes me so sick my cousin is a top girl!!!September 27, 2012 3:14 am at 3:14 am #898162popa_bar_abbaParticipant
You should keep your nose out of it. It is absolutely none of your business.
As far as him “hiding” things, I am sure he will tell her he has been engaged, as their relationship progresses.September 27, 2012 3:21 am at 3:21 am #898163TheGoqParticipant
“my cousin is a top girl”
everyone thinks their cousin is a top girl/boy you are not objective and your friend is probably making up half the stuff she is telling you.September 27, 2012 3:42 am at 3:42 am #898164
Often enough, it’s the ones who had a harder time when they were younger, who end up making the most of their lives. For all you know, maybe she’s not good enough for him…September 27, 2012 3:57 am at 3:57 am #898165CuriosityParticipant
Even if he did do wrong, who is to say he hasn’t matured and done tshuva since years ago in high school? So what if he wasn’t a “top learner”? Rebbe Akiva also wasn’t a top learner when he got married. It sickens me to see how some people scrutinize every single rumor and open up the “sefer hazichronos” from decades ago. We ask Hashem to forget our sins from this year, but we can’t even forget each other’s sins from 5 or 10 years ago?September 27, 2012 5:21 am at 5:21 am #898166September 27, 2012 5:30 am at 5:30 am #898167mddMember
Ask a Rov before you do anything. I would imagine it would be muttar to reveal info about his learning level. About his behavior also — unless people tell you he’s changed. About the broken engagement — depends if they say it was his fault. Again,ask a shailah befor you say something.September 27, 2012 5:33 am at 5:33 am #898168mddMember
Btw, disregard PBA’s and company’s advice — one has the right to know.September 27, 2012 2:36 pm at 2:36 pm #898169
And another problem; she’s got a degree and he barely graduated highschool.. But he’s got a “learner” status that makes him more choshuv than someone that wants to provide for a family.
This girl is really Yeshivish, they could be engaged in the next two weeks!
Help!!! I feel like yelling at her and pulling her brains out, and giving her a new set of them. They definitely ain’t rusty but seeing this before my eyes makes me think she needs a new set of em! N fast!!!September 27, 2012 2:38 pm at 2:38 pm #898170popa_bar_abbaParticipant
Ok, sorry for feeding the trolls.
There is no cousin, no guy, no girl, no engagement. Just more_2.September 27, 2012 2:42 pm at 2:42 pm #898171postsemgirlMember
Someone I know had a broken engagement and a certain Dayan told her that she is NOT to tell shadchanim or the family of the boy that she had a broken engagement. This is something that the girl will tell the boy as the relationship progresses. There are many people who break engagements through no fault of their own. Should people be afraid to break an engagement that is not a healthy one because of the stigma, only to get divorced or live with a horrible marriage? There is no reason to tell the other side right away.
The fact that people refer to young men and ladies as “top girl” and “top boy” is sickening. All of Hashem’s children are top girls and top boys.September 27, 2012 3:21 pm at 3:21 pm #898172hudiParticipant
I would want to know if I was the girl.
I think you should tell her that you’ve heard that he was engaged before so she should check him out a little more. Don’t mention the other information, unless she asks you directly.September 27, 2012 4:23 pm at 4:23 pm #898173just my hapenceParticipant
The Chofetz Chaim has quite a bit to say about shidduchim and giving information. The halocho is that unless you know of a SPECIFIC defect that is almost certain to have a detrimental effect on a marriage it is completely ossur to offer the information if not asked for directly. Being ‘not a top learner’ is in no way such a thing, nor is being previously engaged (both these are written mefurash in chofetz chaim as being so). And, as other people have pointed out, you are seriously nogeiah here. I have a few friends who, when I was asked about them for shidduch information, could not see how the girl being offered was right for them. Of course, because it is not my place to offer opinions only information, I said nothing. They are all happily married. So yes, negius makes a whole lot of difference. Remember, your cousin is old enough to decide for herself, she is a grown-up, mature, rational human being who is intelligent enough to make her own decisions. If she feels, after having dated him and found out about him, that he is right for her, let her make that decision for herself.September 27, 2012 5:47 pm at 5:47 pm #898174
I know a number of people who have had broken engagements and went on to have wonderful marriages with their right match.
He was not meant to be with that other girl or else he would be.
It is her parents job (and hers) to check him out thoroughly. She will not thank you if he goes on to marry someone else and they are happy.
Unless you know something truly egregious about him, like he is c”v taking drugs, stealing, nasty, it would be uncalled for to get involved.
All you criticize is a matter of perspective and opinion about him. She knows his level of education. They can ask about his level of learning.September 27, 2012 7:01 pm at 7:01 pm #898175
My cousin is a top guy, and some jerk ran around telling rumors about him because he didn’t want him the girl he wanted. Now he can’t get a shidduch. Stay out of it. Either it never was true, or its not true anymore. And if it is still true, he will tell her. Hashem runs the world, your hishtadlus is not to run around breaking engagements.September 27, 2012 8:36 pm at 8:36 pm #898176
My hub invited this boy for yom Tov. I dont think he knows we are the girls cousins.. What are some ways I can interrogate him in a nice way?September 27, 2012 8:42 pm at 8:42 pm #898177
Purim Mashgiach, I’m sorry to hear about your cousin.
In this case I’m not breaking an engagement!
Your right hashem most definitely runs the world! Everything we do is accountable for. Im doing my hishtadlut by trying to prevent a broken engagement! -not an easy task I tell u!September 27, 2012 8:43 pm at 8:43 pm #898178
DON’T! What are you thinking??? Mind your own buisness, and leave him alone! Beside being choshed be’keshairim, do you also have to talk lashon hara?? It’s a day after Yom Kippur! Even if DID do something (which you have no right to assume) he probably did teshuva! So be a good Jew, and have some middos!September 27, 2012 8:48 pm at 8:48 pm #898179sheinMember
more_2: Your bubbe maaisas aren’t funny.September 27, 2012 9:00 pm at 9:00 pm #898180
Shein, true I’ve made up stories before here…which I confess is wrong. I’m sure there are others that do too;) Including all your usernames;)
But this one I can guarantee is more than 99%true.September 27, 2012 9:03 pm at 9:03 pm #898181
Purim mashgiach, why do u think I should leave the boy alone? If he’s lying to her he’s going to mess her life up. Not only will her reputation be ruined but the entire extended family!!September 27, 2012 9:29 pm at 9:29 pm #898182CuriosityParticipant
That’s pretty extreme…September 27, 2012 9:38 pm at 9:38 pm #898183ShuychusMember
I think you should go and ask your mentor/rebbi or whomever it is that you feel able to ask. But i dont think this should be pushed under the carpet. Though i dont think you should tell the family direct efsher via a third party.
And More_2 kol hakavod for inviting him but if they get married what do you intend on telling him???September 27, 2012 9:39 pm at 9:39 pm #898184yishtabach shemoParticipant
If you are having him over for yom tov and he doesnt know your watching his every move then he will be himself.
watch him. if he acts like a mentch when he is not on a date thats a pretty good sign.September 27, 2012 9:43 pm at 9:43 pm #898185PBTMember
As with most questions of such serious nature, the venue for discussing this is the office of a Rov that you trust with halachic questions. I’m certainly not one, and therefore I’m not in any league to answer the question, and I gather that most of those who post to this site aren’t rebbeim either. As to “wanting to break the relationship off,” that may be going overboard. The question is whether your cousin needs the information you have received. What she does with it is her decision, and as above, one that she may need to take up with her RovSeptember 27, 2012 10:29 pm at 10:29 pm #898186
You’re questioning his morals and who he is as a person when you admit openly to making up stories without informing the reader (isn’t that the same as LYING?).
It’s great that you care about your cousin enough to want to protect her, and possibly lucky that this guy is coming to your house.
I think you need to approach him with a really open non-judgemental attitude. If you approach the idea of meeting him as wanting to confirm your beliefs then you’ll probably be able to. People see what they look for. Look at him with an ayin tov and you might see positive things.
You have a hard job ahead of you: clearing your pre-conceived notions about him out of your head.September 27, 2012 11:16 pm at 11:16 pm #898187
More 2: How can u say that?? Do you believe this lashon hara too? Lets say your wrong, how will you ever apologize to your “top cousin” for ruining her life by breaking her marriage because your in the mood to be mekabel lashon hara on motzei Yom Kippur? You live your life. I’m sure that this boy is not trying to ruin people’s lives. Otherwise there are a lot better people out there for him to mess with! Go worry about your own life.September 28, 2012 12:35 am at 12:35 am #898188
I wonder if your “friend” called a rav or the shmiras halashon hotline to check if she was even allowed to tell you this.
On second thought, maybe your job isn’t really to check him out.
I think now that you heard this information, you should ask what to do with it (if anything). I have a feeling asking a rav will be more to get you to stop questioning the shidduch than to stop the shidduch itself.September 28, 2012 1:15 am at 1:15 am #898189
Purim mashgiach, I never said that he’s especially trying to ruin pples lives.September 28, 2012 1:18 am at 1:18 am #898190sheinMember
more_2: Poison him when he’s eating by you. This way you’ll save your poor cousin.September 28, 2012 1:31 am at 1:31 am #898191Ðash®Participant
Not only will her reputation be ruined but the entire extended family!!
Now I get it. You’re concerned that your reputation will be ruined if your cousin marries a boy who was previously engaged.September 28, 2012 4:14 am at 4:14 am #898192
More 2: so then what are you saying? That some guy whom you have heard and believed lashon hara about is dating your “top” cousin to the point where they are almost engaged, and now that you made the decision for your cousin that really he is not a good person (again lashon hara) you feel obligated to break it before the world collapses and you get blamed because your personal reputation is marred by your cousin? Sounds to me like you should visit someone.September 28, 2012 5:03 am at 5:03 am #898193WIYMember
If you heard reliably that the guy has a history AND HAS NOT CHANGED or is still very shaky and can easily fall back into his past then you have an obligation to get involved, however the best way to do so would be to first confirm the info and ask a Rabbi how to go about it. You dont want to be the one to do it alone without guidance.
I personally know of a very good frum girl who was redt such a guy. While they were already dating the family had some people make phone calls and they heard some really bad stuff about the guy. Baruch Hashem we were able to save her.
She stopped dating him and a short while later he got engaged to some girl and within a few weeks she divorced him. The guy was just bad news he wasnt able to grow up and put his bad stuff behind him.
So in essence I do believe someone with a past can marry someone who had no past but that is only if his or her past is totally bygones and not current or likely to come back into his life.
I know of other stories where the guy was on drugs in the past, got off drugs, promised to not use again, got married to a great girl and then bang started with the drugs again.
Unfortunately you cant be too careful these days. If you hear that he or she had a past do extremely thorough research to save yourself, your friend, or relative from a horror story.September 28, 2012 5:24 am at 5:24 am #898194
Thank you for those insightful posters. Much appreciated.
Purim mashgiach, I need to see someone because I’m not only worried about her interests but the entire extended family at a large, hmm that is possible.. Did I say I definitely feel obligated to break it before the world collapses?
Here is an earlier post that might help you understand;
Purim Mashgiach, I’m sorry to hear about your cousin.
In this case I’m not breaking an engagement!
Your right hashem most definitely runs the world! Everything we do is accountable for. Im doing my hishtadlut by trying to prevent a broken engagement! -not an easy task I tell u!
POSTED 8 HOURS AGO #September 28, 2012 4:36 pm at 4:36 pm #898195
If you’re so nervous that your cousin may be screwed over, call her rav with your concerns. DON’T take it into your own hands. When I was engaged I didn’t want to hear from anyone other than the shadchan or a rav.
The satan gives his all to destroy everything, especially when something is true. If you heard something and are so concerned for her benefit, ask his Rosh. All you can do on your own is cause damage.September 28, 2012 7:16 pm at 7:16 pm #898196WIYMember
Why hasnt my post posted? Do I not have freedom of speech here?September 28, 2012 10:41 pm at 10:41 pm #898197
can we first establish a necessary ingredient and that is that per the rules of this world made up by this guy named god, you have absolutely no right to even believe that any of this is true? in fact i imagine that the issur of thinking about doing an aveirah also plays a role? before we bring in logic lets realize that the question at hand is not how to do it or even if you can do it because the answers to that are because its assur. the question you are asking is why not, ie why is this considered lashon hara? to this i will refer you to a nice man who wrote a long and complicated book called sefer shmiras halashon. in there you can look up chapter ten and it will explain things quite clearly. if you need help, there is also many people who can help you read it. but just because you dont know halacha, doesnt make it muttar. if you dont want to listen to me, i dont care, you can ask some other competent halachik source perhaps a rav or posek. but dont just assume that since you can think of a reason that it might be muttar that that reason is valid. (maybe this is the understanding of why women arent allowed to learn gemora? hmmm) i beleive that i have said enough on this subject because i have to use this bag next to me for something other than overeating on motai yom kippur (for any of you that read that thread)
good shabbos, and good grief!September 29, 2012 10:03 pm at 10:03 pm #898199notasheepMember
In my opinion, only close family members (and I mean here PARENTS) should know who someone is going out with. Having friends, cousins etc knowing who you are going out with is a recipe for disaster and has ruined many a good shidduch. If the person was truly worried for your cousin, you should tell them to direct their concerns to your cousin’s parents. But you should definitely not get involved.
And I agree with postsemgirl. Sem or yeshiva background makes no difference. I hate it when people use the description ‘top’ boy or girl just because they have the right connections/ went to the right sem/yeshiva. And just one more nugget of information for girls – just cause a girl went to a high-calibre sem and got the best grades doesn’t mean that this will make them a better wife or mother. A good boy does not need to marry a girl who knows nach by heart. (no I am not a cynic, and I am happily married, and no, I didn’t go to a sem that required me to learn lots of text in depth).
One more thing I just remembered – a boy’s hasmada in learning is not equal to middos. You have to check out both. Focus on the middos in a shidduch and people will have far less problems in shidduchim…September 30, 2012 6:50 am at 6:50 am #898200
PM: “maybe this is the understanding of why women arent allowed to learn gemora? hmmm”
Huh?????????September 30, 2012 8:14 pm at 8:14 pm #898201No One Mourns The WickedMember
“Not only will her reputation be ruined but the entire extended family!!”
Can you elaborate further? Why would the “entire” family be ruined EVEN IF something would to (god forbid) go wrong?
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