Davening a Long S"E

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  • #615915

    mik5
    Participant

    See Kav HaYoshor, Chapter 100, about people who daven a long S”E.

    He writes that he has a mesora that one who davens longer than the rest of the tzibbur is guilty of ostentation [showing off] and his prayers will not be heard chas v’shalom.

    Discuss.

    #1215633

    πŸ‘‘RebYidd23
    Participant

    Some people can’t daven fast.

    #1215634

    mik5
    Participant
    #1215635

    CRuzer
    Member

    This does not apply if davening at the same speed as everyone else will cause one to slur words together or, even worse, skip them completely. As such, this unfortunately does not apply to many kehillos today and one is required to daven a longer S”E.

    #1215636

    catch yourself
    Participant

    If you must daven a long s”e, at the very least please be sure to do so in a way that prevents everyone else from being able to leave when Davening is over. It is best to daven standing in the doorway.

    #1215637

    takahmamash
    Participant

    CRuzer:

    . . . one is required to daven a longer S”E.

    Please provide an actual source for your claim, or tell us if this is your own conjecture. Thanks.

    #1215638

    πŸ‘‘RebYidd23
    Participant

    Takahmamash, you just took that out of context.

    #1215639

    147
    Participant

    Pray as slow & intensely as you wish, but with 2 provisos:-

    1) you are not #10 causing Chazora haShatz to have to await your conclusion of Amida to have a Miyan responding to Chazzon;

    2) You are not the Rabbi for whom everyone must await commencing Chazoras haShatz.

    #1215640

    lesschumras
    Participant

    A third proviso: don’t do while blocking an aisle,

    #1215641

    147
    Participant

    lesschumras:- oops; It slipped my mind to include that. you are so correct.

    #1215642

    mik5
    Participant

    You are not the Rabbi for whom everyone must await commencing Chazoras haShatz.

    Well, is it true that everyone “must” wait for the rabbi before commencing chazoras hashatz?

    #1215643

    takahmamash
    Participant

    Well, is it true that everyone “must” wait for the rabbi before commencing chazoras hashatz?

    In a shule where I used to daven, the gabbi would tell the sha”tz when to start, even thought the Rav was not yet finished.

    #1215644

    Wisey
    Participant

    I davened long and someone came to me after and rebuked me loudly about the fact that Hashem is above nature and doesn’t need us to talk slowly for him to understand just like he was able to say all the aseress hadibros at once. I think he is a bit crazy.

    #1215645

    pcoz
    Member

    A new English bochur in Slabodka finished shacharis. The Alter walked up to him and said, ‘Du bist a rosho merusha.’ The bochur asked, why? He said, first you had your sleeve rolled up during davening, this is not a bathroom. Second you davened shemone esrei longer than anyone else so you obviously think you are a groysser tzadik.

    #1215646

    feivel
    Participant

    I don’t think the Alter said this to everyone who davened a long S’E.

    No doubt it was clear to him with one glance who this bachur was, why HE davened a long S’E, and what he needed to be told.

    Be careful when you try to learn general lessons from a Gadol by what he said to a particular individual under particular circumstances.

    #1215647

    πŸ‘‘RebYidd23
    Participant

    Unless it’s a Synchronized S’E team, somebody will daven longer than the others.

    #1215648

    That someone shouldn’t have been him.

    #1215649

    pcoz
    Member

    After the Alter walked out, the bochur was shaking. The other bochurim walked up to him and said, we’re jealous of you. He said, why, he called me a rosho merusha? They said, he said ‘du’, not ‘ihr’ (i.e. he was being friendly).

    #1215650

    I was told that Rav Shteinman was asked what people can do to avoid making they’re tefillos “Keva”. He said that some days you must shorten your S”E, some days you must lengthen it, but you can’t daven a shemonei esrei of exactly the same length every day.

    #1215651

    Talmidchochom
    Participant

    Davening a long S”E if a shliach tzibbur violates the Halacha of tircha d’tzibura. Yes, there are halachos specifically geared to minimize or eliminate tircha d’tzibura. From a practical point, long S”Es lead to unruly disruptive noisy impatient mispallelim.

    #1215652

    golfer
    Participant

    Note to the slow shliach tzibbur:

    I’m not going to tell you what to do on a weekday when your fellow mispallelim are rushing to get back to their cell phones and their car keys.

    But on Shabbos, take your time please! You”ll have at least one very grateful slow davener behind the mechitza who’s happy to be able to keep up without getting breathless and losing concentration. And if everyone else is upset they have to wait an extra few minutes for their herring and chulent, is that really tircha d’tzibura? How about the people forced to swallow half their consonants just to keep up with a speeding Sha”tz? Seems that involves some tircha too.

    (Or do we want to say that a woman is not part of the tzibbur? And if so, does not the possibility exist that there may be a slow davener on the men’s side?)

    #1215653

    golfer
    Participant

    Talmidch,

    “unruly disruptive noisy impatient mispallelim” ?!

    An oxymoron if I ever saw one.

    Where do you daven?

    As a Jew once said,

    Include me out!

    #1215654

    flatbusher
    Participant

    The original post is very troubling to me. Based on what can someone determine that one who davens longer is being ostentatious and that his tefilos will not be answered? The poster said a”mesora” but doesn’t there have to be a makor for it. There are places in the davening where an individual can personalize. He can add the names of sick people in Refaeinu, there are tefilos in Shema Koleinu asking forgiveness for chet, and daven for parnasa, and before stepping back one can add his own bakashos. This will all make for a longer shemoneh esrai. So one is ostentatious to implore Hashem? What is the point of davening if not to have personal communion with Hashem?

    #1215655

    mord13
    Member

    I think this is dumb because someone who had a lot of kavanah is going to read this and stop having kavanah do you want that on your achraios

    #1215656

    the mishna berurah often says usser mishum yuharah Ga’avah, like when sombody says the words with the chazzan. does that mean everyone is oiver when they say (“tiferes gedulah”)? also its usser to have two-holed Tzitzis for the same reason however nowadays many wear as such! elah may, yuharah is talui in the times. and today its quite common to see one davening a long s”e not for ga’avah reasons.

    #1215657

    mik5
    Participant

    mord13 – Open up a Kav HaYoshor and see for yourself.

    The Steipler Goan rebuked a man who davened long and kept people in front of him trapped as a result, and told that man to daven in the front of the shul. One who will daven a long S”E should preferably daven in the front of the shul, in order to avoid trapping people or causing them to sin when they step back into his four amos due to their ignorance (or by mistake).

    However, one has the right to daven word-by-word, regardless of where he is standing.

    #1215658

    mik5
    Participant

    See l’Shichno Sidreshu p. 60

    See the sefer “Wake up!” (about davening) where it says that “The Steipler once publicly rebuked one who Davened at length and prevented others from leaving, and told him to Daven in front (Halichos v’Hanhagos p. 18)”

    #1215659

    BarryLS1
    Participant

    No doubt that there are Shuls that daven too fast, there are also Shuls that Daven soooo slow as if there is a contest on you can finish last, with some mispalalim never saying Kedusha.

    Then you have some guys with gyrations all over the place and waving fists as if they’re in a boxing match. I saw one guy whose shukkeling to a point of nearly hitting his head on the table before him. I find it hard to believe you can really have Kavonoh doing these things. It’s more like a show, “see how Frum I am.” More like insane.

    #1215660

    YW Moderator-42
    Moderator

    It all depends on the time and place. On Yom Kippur it is normal for some to take much longer and is therefore probably not yuhara. If the minyan is way to fast then it isn’t yuhara either. Either way, if one knows that he will likely be longer than others he should stand in the front so as not to block people in. If you know you will be faster, daven in the back so that you can take your 3 steps without disturbing others. But, wherever you are, daven to hashem, not to the people around you. And don’t talk. And silence your cell phone (even from vibrate). If the shliach tzibur/Rav takes longer than you, then chap some learning during your wait (or quietly check your cell phone). Don’t check cell phones or learn during chazaras hashatz.

    #1215661

    (or quietly check your cell phone)

    Don’t.

    #1215662

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    How about not worrying about how long everyone else is davening SE and just worry about your own (however long it takes)?

    The Wolf

    #1215663

    YW Moderator-42
    Moderator

    DY wote:

    (or quietly check your cell phone)

    Don’t.

    Why not? Isn’t that just as important as learning?</sarcasm>

    #1215664

    Today I decided to be extra makpid in this area, so I made sure to peek at my neighbor’s siddur every now and then and made sure to be just a little bit ahead.

    #1215665

    How about not worrying about how long everyone else is davening SE and just worry about your own (however long it takes)?

    If it’s a small minyan, davening extra long might delay chazaras hashatz and hold back others from getting to where they need to go (e.g. work in the morning).

    #1215666

    Why not?

    I don’t think it’s proper kavod to the davening, even if you’re just waiting for chazaras hashatz. Believe me, at times I’m tempted.

    #1215667

    Today I decided to be extra makpid in this area, so I made sure to peek at my neighbor’s siddur every now and then and made sure to be just a little bit ahead.

    I’m sure you also were careful to take note of how much kavanah your neighbor appeared to have.

    #1215668

    YW Moderator-42
    Moderator

    http://www.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=14170&st=&pgnum=261&hilite=

    Mishna Brura 102:6 says that you can only sit amongst people who are davening if you are also davening (or being osek b’Torah) because otherwise it looks like you are not being mikabel ol malchus shamayim with the rest of the tzibbur.

    So, it would seem that checking one’s cell phone would not be allowed in this case, unless you were learning or davening from your cell phone. The question is, if those around you don’t know that you are actually learning from your phone, is it a problem?

    #1215669

    newbee
    Member

    The vast majority of people could care less how long or short you daven. Daven at whatever speed you want. These days, its not even considered kovodik to daven long really. Unless you make the minyan and are delyaing people just do whatever you want.

    The only time I have an issue is if someone davens a 3 min S”E b’yochid and a 15 min one b’tzibur. Such a person must think people will respect him more for davening longer, which they dont. They dont care.

    #1215670

    42, maybe that depends where you daven.

    Hopefully, you daven in places where it’s uncommon to learn or daven from a phone, so it’ll be maris ayin (or at least an inyan of vihiyisem nikiim).

    #1215671

    YW Moderator-42
    Moderator

    That is why Apple came out with giant iphones – so other people can see your screen and know that you are learning. Bishvil Yisrael she’yisasku b’Torah… πŸ™‚

    #1215672

    The machmirim use the Huawei MediaPad X1.

    #1215673

    twisted
    Participant

    I dread being called to the omud ( and i do go) because it means I must shorten and hurry my usual 10-12 minute private davening. I have seen yeshivas daven 30 minutes on a weekday, and some that were fairly quick followed by a respectably enunciated chazoraa hashatz. So I regard myself as beinoni. Yet even by the medium slow. and/or places where I would not be called up, I generally miss most or all of chazoras hashatz but that is because the shatz is too fast.

    #1215674

    Avi K
    Participant

    If one davens slowly he should do so in a place where no one is in front of him or there is a chatziza so as not to either rob him of his time or machshil him in stepping back when he finishes. If someone is waiting for him (not necessarily if he is the Shatz) it is also gezel zeman. BTW, Rav Chaim Brisker used to daven quickly. When someone pointed out that one should daven like he counts money he replied that he also counted money quickly.

    #1215675

    The little I know
    Participant

    I wonder how to refer to someone who davens S”E with his concentration on how others are davening. If there is a requirement to daven with kavana, it certainly does not include what others are up to. I cannot gauge my S”E to be either longer or shorter than someone else. My tefila is a very personal experience, and I try to take it seriously. I shouldn’t have a care in the world on others’ perceptions. If I do take longer, my thoughts should not be on how others perceive it. The exception would be if my longer davening impacts on others or on the tzibbur. That’s where halachos bring the subject of gaavah into the picture.

    #1215676

    newbee
    Member

    “I shouldn’t have a care in the world on others’ perceptions.”

    And they dont have a care in the world about yours. I cant remember the last time I looked at someone daven and thought anything whatsoever about their davening. If they daven long I dont notice. If they daven short I dont notice. I just dont care. I think 95% of people also dont care.

    #1215677

    Avi K
    Participant

    Little, apparently the little you know does not include Bamidbar 32:22.

    #1215678

    The little I know
    Participant

    Avi K:

    I am keenly aware of that posuk. It has virtually nothing to do with concern for how others think of you. It is obviously about making good on one’s responsibility to Hashem and to others. The obsession for what others think is not a part of Avodas Hashem. In most cases, it is a detraction.

    Try again.

    #1215679

    I don’t think the two of you are really disagreeing. I think you both realize that you should care about others’ perceptions so that there should not be chillul Hashem, and so that people will not learn incorrect behavior, and that one shouldn’t care for personal haughtiness.

    #1215680

    Avi K
    Participant

    Wrong, Little. And wrong, DY. That pasuk has everything to do with it. Not to mention the various halachot regarding ????? ??? and ???? ??????. As Casey Stengel said, you can look them up.

    #1215681

    Which part was I wrong about, that you should care about chillul Hashem, that you should care about people learning incorrect behavior, or that you shouldn’t be haughty?

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