Davening – Do we really know the translation???

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  • #593453

    Shticky Guy
    Participant

    (I speak for myself here also!)

    How much of davening do we sail thru, convinced that we know what we are talking about, but if someone asks us to translate a word or phraze we suddenely see that we aren’t sure?

    I bought my son a siddur with translation under each word and am amazed at what i dont know. I used to think I am fine with my tefilla.

    I will list below a few examples. Be honest with yourself and dont cheat. Translate out loud NOW to yourself the whole of the following lines:

    ?? ???????? ??????? ??????????. ???????? ???????? ????????*

    ?????? ?? ??????-?? ??? ???????? ?????????. ??????? ?????????????*

    ?????????? ?’ ???? ???????????*

    ?’ ??????????? ???????????? ????????? ??. ???????????? ??????? ???????? ???????*

    ????????? ?????????? ??????? ??? ??????????? ????? ??????????????? ??????*

    ???? ????? ?’ ?????????. ??????? ???????? ??*

    ??????? ??-? ??????????. ??????? ?????????? ????????*

    ?????? ?????????? ??????????. ??????????????? ?????????? ???????*:

    ??????? ?????????? ?????????? ????????? ????????? ?????????*

    AND SHABBOS? Have a try at these:

    ?????-???????, ???????-?????; ????? ????????? ??????????*

    or

    ????, ????????? ??????????; ?????????? ????????????? ??????*

    or?

    ?????? … ??? ??????????; ???-???????? ??????, ????-????????*

    And what about birchas hamazon? Surely we all can manage that? Lets see. Here’s a passuk from the beginning and one from the end:

    ??????? … ??? ??????????? ???????????? ?????????*

    or

    ?????????? ?????? ????????*

    I could go on. In a nutshell, if you,ve managed all these then you’re A-OK. Otherwise, and i’ve asked lots of chashuve people, we must put more effort into tefilla. And thats to look up peshatim and translation BEFORE we go to shul so that when we arrive we can go immediately uninterupted into our tefillas.

    Chazal say that the words of davening are not a important as the tefilla shebaleiv. So lets get our hearts in the right place. And we cant do this without understanding what we are saying.

    May H’ answer all our tefillos!!!

    #717619

    shlomozalman
    Member

    Israelis know most or all of these because they speak the language. Words like ?????,????,??,???? and others are part of their everyday speech. Americans must learn it independently and therefore their understanding of it is relatively poor. Another reason to live in Israel.

    #717620

    sz: Hebrew is not Loshon HaKodesh.

    #717621

    smartcookie
    Member

    Now we start all over again with a Hebrew argument…

    Anyway, Davening is definitely not the same without knowing what you’re saying.

    #717622

    mdd
    Member

    Trying my best, you can not deny the undenyable: Biblical Hebrew and Modern Hebrew are variations of the same language, and they are very similar. Stop repeating the right-wing propaganda without thinking!

    And German is certainly not the Lashon HaKodesh!

    #717623

    shlomozalman
    Member

    Sorry if I was unclear in my last post.

    What I meant to say is that Israelis know most of these difficult words found in the davening because they are part of their everyday speech. I’m not sure what is difficult to understand or accept in that fact.

    #717624

    mdd
    Member

    Trying my best, why do Israelis understand the Loshon HaKodesh so well? Please, tell us.

    #717625

    chesedname
    Participant

    If someone can’t translate davening (I know many can’t) call your elementary school, and ask for your parents tuition back.

    This is the first and most important thing they should be teaching!!

    #717626

    WIY
    Member

    Shticky Guy

    I can translate all of those but its partly because I daven daily with the Artscroll Interlinear Translated Siddur and I have memorized the meaning of many words.

    chesedname

    “If someone can’t translate davening (I know many can’t) call your elementary school, and ask for your parents tuition back.

    This is the first and most important thing they should be teaching!!”

    True but they dont teach it or only teach bits and pieces. I am still waiting for my refund lol.

    #717627

    Shticky Guy
    Participant

    WIY

    Thats the exact siddur I was refering to in my opening post. Still, if you really knew every word of all the phrazes i posted then you have a good memory and you’re really using your siddur well. I have tested ppl and many chashuve ppl couldnt manage some of these pesukim (of course I only asked one or two at a time!).

    Other posters. . . How did anyone else do?

    #717628

    yitayningwut
    Participant

    From 8th grade through 12th I used the regular metzuda siddur and it’s still my favorite. And I got all the words!

    #717629

    WIY
    Member

    Shticky Guy

    I dont know who you tested, but any truly Chashuveh person should at least know perush hamilos, (if not in depth mefarshim on Davening) not to say that they arent good Jews, but if they can stomach Davening everyday to Hashem and not knowing what they are saying, there most be something missing with their “chashivuskeit.”

    #717630

    Ken Zayn
    Member

    I dont mind to be the first to admit that I couldnt translate some of those words! I’m actually quite shocked aswell. Its back to school for me!!!

    #717631

    Shticky Guy
    Participant

    Thanx ken zayn. I’m glad there are honest people out there willing to be modeh al haemes and stand up in front of millions of people on YWN, obscured only by an anonymous user name, and admit that they also could not teitch each and every word above.

    The rest of you posters are remarkably quiet… Which elementary schools did you go to?

    #717632

    WIY
    Member

    Shticky Guy

    Forget it people are obviously not looking for public humiliation but it is a busha that there are many words in Davening that people have no clue what they mean.

    I always wondered how some people Daven so fast. But its really not such a tough question. When you arent thinking about what you are saying all you are doing is trying to say the words as fast as possible.

    #717633

    ItcheSrulik
    Member

    The only one I had trouble with was ?’ ??????????? ???????????? ????????? ??.

    I put some serious effort into learning the Hebrew language becuase not knowing what davening — or even many of the words they threw around while learning — meant was one of my major gripes in yeshiva.

    #717634

    aries2756
    Participant

    It is a real shame, but this was another girls vs boys situation. In most yeshivas they taught beiur tefilah to the girls while not doing so with the boys. And of course girls leanred Hebrew/Ivris and boys didn’t. So girls have a little more advantage in this area. I’m not saying that girls/women understand everything word by word but yes the general meaning. Also because we say tehillim more, and probably peak to the english side if we don’t understand something, but again girls were taught tanach, pirkei avos, etc. A lot was translated where boys were at a disadvantage.

    #717635

    Shticky Guy
    Participant

    WIY:”people are obviously not looking for public humiliation” ???

    Thats why I wrote that all posters are “obscured by an anonymous user name” so no humiliation involved. I’m just amazed that so many ppl claim to have known some of these pesukim, eg ?????-???????, ???????-?????; ????? ????????? ?????????? and a few others

    #717636

    Pashuteh Yid
    Member

    Kinor and Navel are musical instruments and higayon means thoughts.

    But here is a tough one:

    Vhaofanim vchayos hakodesh braash gadol misnasim l’umas serafim, lumasam meshabchim v’omrim. This is the high point of birchos kriyas shema.

    #717637

    WIY
    Member

    Pashuteh Yid

    If I remember correctly, Artscroll translates higayon as the higayon, also a musical instrument.

    #717638

    ItcheSrulik
    Member

    Kinnor and navel are stringed instruments, a higayon is supposedly a type of woodwind.

    Pashuteh Yid: Funny, I thought the high point of birchos krias shma was ??? ?????

    Shticky: was that addressed to me?

    #717639

    seeallsides
    Participant

    hurray for interlinear siddurim – my davening has taken on a new dimension with them! Thank you artscroll

    #717640

    deiyezooger
    Member

    “tefilla b’lee kavana kguf b’lee neshama”

    #717641

    Pashuteh Yid
    Member

    Maybe Higayon is an instrument. However, we know it means thoughts or expressions, as in hegyon libi. Alei higayon bkinor seems to make sense as expressing oneself through the music of the kinor. Otherwise why lump together two separate instruments? And wouldn’t it be Alei higayon vkinor (a vav not a beis).

    As far as the high point, I mean in the sense that this is part of the kedusha which the entire kahal says together out loud.

    #717642

    ItcheSrulik
    Member

    I apologize, higayon was a mistake, possibly (mis)remembering a vort I saw somewhere, though the rest are described various places in gemara. Grammatically, higayon is the noun form of hegyon which is in turn a binyan (that turns the verb into an adjective on libi in your example) on the root heh-gimmel-heh which refers to a specific type of conteplative thought. Looking at the verse “Higayon b’kinnor” it seems to refer to an example of a type of musical composition for a kinnor. *which is only a violin in modern Hebrew! end minirant*

    Fair point about the kedusha. Though in a way, those are the easiest to translate: just point at RaMaK and say “what he said.”

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