December 27, 2012 10:12 pm at 10:12 pm #1195465NaysbergMember
R.T.: Nowhere has shmendrik insulted your rabbonim or mekubalim.December 27, 2012 10:23 pm at 10:23 pm #1195466
Seems from your response and comment about shovivim, that you come from Sefardim or Chassidic lineage. May you succeed in the avodah of shovivim: Tikun Hayisod.
My comments that yidden wear black and white has exceptions. The kohen godol wore gold clothes – just as the Rishon L’zion and various Chachamim. This also has a Tradition in yiddishkeit.
ut unless you are a Kohen Godol, a Rish L’Tzion or a Chacham of a kehillah – black and white are the levushim.December 27, 2012 10:43 pm at 10:43 pm #1195467WolfishMusingsParticipant
Wearing gray and/or blue is stam being poetz geder, and as generations decline, following your derech of prikus ol of the black-white malbush, your grandchildren may wear orange and pink r”l. That can happen when we start making minor adjustments to “al titosh toras imecha”.
You just keep getting funnier and funnier.
First, people who use any new form of technology are a “porek ol” and “poretz gader” according to you (which, again, makes me think you would believe that the first Jews who read printed seforim had that status as well), and now people who wear colors are also “stam being poretz gader.”
You’re just a regular barrel of laughs. What’s next? People who drive as opposed to taking a horse-drawn cart as our forefathers did?
The WolfDecember 28, 2012 12:10 am at 12:10 am #1195468
What’s next? People who drive as opposed to taking a horse-drawn cart as our forefathers did?
When they used a horse-drawn cart, there was no car available. When they chose black and white clothes, colored clothing was readily available but specifically rejected.
The Vilna SHas was adopted by klaal yisroel. We learn from seforim filled with dafim/pages which we turn, not pixels.
Tecnology and innovations creep in after the hamon amm is poretz geder. The first to do so are porkei ol, the latter are following accepted minhag.
I call the first ones “Nachshon ben Aminodov of Tumah” as they jump into the raging sea of modern secularism.
I am happy that I am mesameach you. Use the simcha for avodas Hashem.December 30, 2012 2:32 pm at 2:32 pm #1195469R.T.Participant
“Kabbolistically, a person should wear only white (davka)on shabbos – seems it represents chesed (while black is for gevuros).”
This is partially flawed. White and silver are associated with Chessed. Red, not black is associated with Gevurah.
Brilliant white is associated with Keter. From a different perspective, black is also associated with Keter, but it is beyond the scope of this forum to discuss that.
Blue is associated with Malchut. Shabbat is associated many times with Malchut. Each of the 6 days of creation are associated with HaGa”T NaHi”Y. Yom Rishon is Chessed (creation of Ohr), Yom Sheni is Gevura (Rakia, Mavdil — severity), Yom Shlishi is Tiferet, Revii is Netzach, Chamishi is Hod and Yom HaShishi is Yessod (creation of
man, sexual balance)
“Some Rosh Yeshivas, as in CHaim Berlin etc. on shabbos would wear their talis by folding the black stripes on their shoulder UNDER the talis so that only the white part of the talis showed. This way they were yotzeh the kabbalistic need to “wear white” on shabbos.”
If that were true, then they would wear a white on white Tallis for Shabbos, and a regular black on white Tallis for weekdays. And MiDina Gemara, a person should have 2 Tallaism as noted above. However, that too would be difficult to shtimm with Kabbalas Shabbos, Maariv and Mincha on Shabbos afternoon, when Rov HaOlam do not wear Tallaism (at least not in public).December 30, 2012 5:18 pm at 5:18 pm #1195470
The requirement to have 2 tallitot generally means to have 1 for shabbat/yom tov, and one for weekdays, no?December 30, 2012 5:56 pm at 5:56 pm #1195471
R.T. – “If that were true, then they would wear a white on white Tallis for Shabbos, and a regular black on white Tallis for weekdays.”
There is an inyan to have a talis with black stripes. Therefore on shabbos they wear such a talis but hide the black stripes. Some do so even during weekday davening to not be me’orer gvuros. Therefore they wear the tallis by folding the talis under. I have seen gedolim makpid on this (as mentioned, R.Y. of Chaim Berlin, Lubavitcher Rebbe etc.).
I admit that I have no essek in nistoros (hanistoros l’Hashem Elokeinu, v’haniglos lonu), and I suggest you refrain for it too. Kabbolistic concepts are more complex than merely color coded charts and connecting the dots while passing around names of sefirot, shaymos and tirufim.
rebdoniel – the malbush of shabbos should not be the same as the weekday malbush, hence “shabbos clothes” and a shabbos talis. (There is a shaylah if one needs “shabbos shoes” – if shoes are considered a malbush for this inyan, (underwear, socks etc are not part of this cheshbon), v’ain kan mekomo).December 30, 2012 6:19 pm at 6:19 pm #1195472
rebdoniel, the Romms were not the most traditional of Jews, but they were certainly not Christians!December 30, 2012 6:20 pm at 6:20 pm #1195473
The Jews in Mitzrayim had no Torah, so their only zechus was that they stuck to their identity in external matters such as names, clothes, and language. Where do you see that post-mattan-torah these things are still important?December 30, 2012 7:13 pm at 7:13 pm #1195474
Milhouse – Post mattan torah examples of kisuy harosh for men and married women as malbush (or da’as) yehudi.
Names given to children are traditional rather than “made up” as in those days in Mitzrayim.
But your premise is wrong, the yidden in mitzrayim HAD specific zchusim such as bris milah, eating meat and shchita, not intermarrying or serving Avoda Zara, belief in Hashem, keeping some form of shabbos, studying Torah (-v’es Yehudah shoach lefanav – to set up a yeshiva) etc.December 30, 2012 7:44 pm at 7:44 pm #1195475
Oy vey. First, there is no such things as “da’as yehudi”. “Jewish knowledge”?! “<i>Das</i> yehudis” is the <i>rule</i> of a Yehudis, i.e. the established way that a Yehudis behaves. As in “vedoseihem shonos mikol om, ve’es dosei hamelech einom osim”. But none of this has to do with “Jewish dress”, or that there is an inyan in preserving it and not dressing like the surrounding culture.
Kisuy harosh for men is discussed in terms of “chukos hagoy”, since the goyim have a religious commandment to go bareheaded in church, and from this comes their insistence that one go bareheaded indoors. (Going bareheaded outdoors was unheard of, both by goyim and yidden, until about 50 years ago, so it just wasn’t an issue; the issue was only indoors.)
The medrash you quoted about names, language, and dress, says that this was their only zechus.December 30, 2012 7:56 pm at 7:56 pm #1195476
That is what I figured.
Usually, white on white tallitot are worn by Sepharadim, who tend to be mahmir on these kabbalistic inyanim. I would think this is why Sephardic siddurim, sefarim, etc. tend to be white.
I personally have 2 tallitot that have black stripes for shabbat and yemei chol and one with white stripes that I wear for the yamim noraim.
The entire inyan of Shabbos levush is very serious, and it is directly out of the Gemara. (Shabbat 119, IIRC).
And I stand corrected- I must have misheard in some article I read that the Romms were goyim.December 30, 2012 8:05 pm at 8:05 pm #1195477popa_bar_abbaParticipant
Oy vey. First, there is no such things as “da’as yehudi”. “Jewish knowledge”?! “<i>Das</i> yehudis” is the <i>rule</i> of a Yehudis, i.e. the established way that a Yehudis behaves.
I’ll help you explain it.
?? ??????, not ??? ??????December 30, 2012 11:04 pm at 11:04 pm #1195478
The Taz was the first to suggest that men going with an uncovered head was chukat hagoy.
Maybe this would true in a house of worship, but even that is a stretch. The Vilna Gaon says that a man need only cover his head for the Amidah.
Reb Moshe holds like the Taz, yet allows men to uncover for work purposes.December 30, 2012 11:25 pm at 11:25 pm #1195479
Milhouse, do you happen to know why some people wear their talis in a manner that the black lines are covered (by folding the talis under and tucking in the talis)?December 31, 2012 1:01 am at 1:01 am #1195480R.T.Participant
rebdoniel — You are correct; one tallis for chol, one tallis for Shabbos
shmendrick — I am quite well trained in Kabbalah. You are not.December 31, 2012 4:28 am at 4:28 am #1195481
I always thought Kabbalah is a limud, that someone can be well learned and versed in it. I never knew that it is like karate and one must be trained in it. Are you a black belted kabbalist?November 24, 2016 2:11 am at 2:11 am #1195482LightbriteParticipant
Does davening from one’s phone in shul elevate the phone’s status when it’s used in RL regular practice?
Maybe it becomes a kli for brachot. I like books but can see how davening from a phone not only can help one achieve consistency, but give kedosha to the material nature of the phone.November 24, 2016 5:41 am at 5:41 am #1195483Avi KParticipant
Until it becomes common it might be a problem of marit ayin. However, I do not see the difference between a tefilla app and a siddur. In fact, the former has an advantage as that portions such as “yaaleh v’yavo” come up on the proper days so that it is more difficult to forget. In addition, shul siddurim are often worn out and even have pages missing. I did read an article by someone who lies the smell of old siddurim but I suppose that a smell app can be added.November 24, 2016 10:08 am at 10:08 am #1195484Lilmod UlelamaidParticipant
A phone is not a Siddur. It has no Kedusha. When your phone dies, it goes in the garbage, not in Shamos.November 29, 2016 12:36 am at 12:36 am #1195486DerShteygingYidParticipant
I have seen shuls that have prohibited phones and tablets for use as a siddur, chumash, gemara, etc., because they lack kedusha.November 29, 2016 2:19 am at 2:19 am #1195487LightbriteParticipant
DerShteygingYid: Did that affect their numbers after they made the rule? I wonder if people who went there then had to find another place where they were accepted.November 29, 2016 2:38 am at 2:38 am #1195488Lilmod UlelamaidParticipant
They were accepted everywhere – no one said they can’t daven there, they just said they can’t daven from a phone.
If they switched shuls because of that, I hope they learn to get their priorities straight.
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