December 5, 2012 5:55 pm at 5:55 pm #607266DaMosheParticipant
The topic was raised in another thread. Someone complained that El Al makes it difficult to make a minyan for davening.
Here is what R’ Hershel Shachter sayys about making a minyan on a plane:
Another common mistake people make is regarding davening with a minyan. The Talmud emphasizes the importance of tefillah btzibur; and one who davens with a minyan stands a much better chance of having his prayers answered than one who lacks a minyan. However, it is highly improper for the chazzan of a minyan on an airplane to shout at the top of his lungs to enable the other mispalelim to hear him over the airplane noise, and thereby wake up all the passengers around him. It is true that there is a halachic principle of kofin al hamitzvos, i.e. that beis din has an obligation to force people to observe the mitzvos even when they’re not interested in doing so, but this only applies when pressuring an individual will result in his becoming observant. However, when Orthodox Jews disturb non-observant Jewish passengers with their davening, the non-observant passengers sill remain non-observant and now just have another point about which to be upset with the Orthodox. The practice of the Orthodox passengers under such circumstances appears simply as an act of harassment. Rather than having accomplished the hidur mitzvah of davening tefillah btzibur, they have violated lifnei iver by causing the non-observant passengers to become more antagonistic towards shemiras hamitzvos. The shouting tone of voice employed by the shaliach tzibbur to overcome the noise on the airplane clearly does not constitute a kavod hatefillah.
The halacha states that when traveling, if it is too difficult to stand for shemoneh esrei even the “amidah” may be recited while seated. On a short flight of an hour and a half to Canada, it is more correct to daven the entire tefillah while still buckled in, in a sitting position. On the long flight to Eretz Yisroel it is healthier not to sit the entire time; walking about somewhat helps the blood circulation in one’s legs. As such, there is nothing wrong with standing for shemoneh esrei, provided that there’s no turbulence at that time. However, it is still not proper to gather a minyan together near the washrooms, disturbing all the other passengers and the stewardesses. As much as various Torah giants of our generation have expressed their opposition to such minyanim on airplanes*, their message has not yet been accepted. We wish everyone a chag kasher v’sameach, and all those traveling to Eretz Yisroel should have a safe trip, but keep in mind – these minyanim are shelo b’ratzon chachamim!
*Rav Shlomo Wahrman ( She’eiris Yosef vol. 7, siman 3) quotes Rav Shlomo Zalman Auerbach (Halichos Shlomo, page 75), Rav Moshe Feinstein (Igros Moshe Orach Chaim vol. 4 siman 20), Rav Ovadiah Yosef, and Rav Shmuel Wosner all objecting to minyanim on airplanes that disturb other passengers.
As can be seen from the teshuva of R’ Schachter, many Rabbonim, including R’ Moshe zt”l, R’ Shlomo Zalman zt”l, Chacham Yosef shlita and R’ Wosner shlita are against making a minyan on a plane. Maybe El Al knows of this psak, and that’s why they give people a hard time?December 6, 2012 3:37 am at 3:37 am #915362HaLeiViParticipant
Aha. So the Amei Ha’aretz stewards on Continental are much more understanding because they’re ignorant.
There are many times and many ways that a Minyan can be organized without disturbing those who aren’t disturbed by the fact that you made a Minyan. The flight crew, if they care, can even let you know when is a good window for that.December 6, 2012 4:05 am at 4:05 am #915363farrocksMember
Delta also allows a minyan on planes.
Rav Chaim Pinchas Scheinberg, zt’l, was asked if one should pray with a minyan on an airplane. He said yes, adding that he does it “all the time.” While strictly speaking it might be permitted to pray at your seat, Rabbi Scheinberg prefers that one pray with a minyan, but quietly in a way that doesn’t disturb others.December 6, 2012 4:07 am at 4:07 am #915364farrocksMember
DaMoshe: Those shittos you mentioned ONLY object to disturbing others. They do NOT object to making a minyan on a plane.
They agree with Rav Scheinberg.December 6, 2012 5:12 am at 5:12 am #915365HolyMoeParticipant
The layout of continental is different than ElAl.
Their galleys face each other in the back creating a small room that doesn’t interfere with passengers going to the bathroom and the sounds of our davening don’t disturb others.December 6, 2012 6:47 am at 6:47 am #915366uneeqMember
Depends on which airline you fly. If you fly ElAl where half the plane is religious, there is NO WAY to daven with a minyan or even stand up to pray without bothering the entire plane.
If you fly Continental (now united) where there is a max of 20-30 religious Jews, they could accommodate you and they do. They put everyone in the back kitchen, everyone fits fine. No one gets disturbed.December 6, 2012 7:21 am at 7:21 am #915367HaLeiViParticipant
By the way, the sound doesn’t disturb passengers. The plane’s engine noise is much louder than, “Hashem Elokeichem Emes”.December 6, 2012 9:54 am at 9:54 am #915369ScooterJew613Participant
I dont get it do you guys also shop shielahs until you get the answer you want. Rav Sheinberg doesnt have a written psak on the topic so until I hear it from the horses mouth it does not exsist. Everyone else has a written psak and clearly states you shouldnt do so. What exactly is the argument to have a minyan?December 26, 2012 3:55 am at 3:55 am #915370WiseyParticipant
What about Tefillin? I recently put on tefillin on an Air Canada flight under my coat. I probably looked strange wearing a coat with a hood, like an eskimo, on a plane but it would have been worse if I had put black boxes on my head and arm. Maybe I’m a terrorist.December 26, 2012 5:28 am at 5:28 am #915371oomisParticipant
A young man actually got into trouble because of his tefillin, a number of years ago.December 26, 2012 5:58 am at 5:58 am #915372Ðash®Participant
The layout of continental is different than ElAl.
Their galleys face each other in the back creating a small room that doesn’t interfere with passengers going to the bathroom and the sounds of our davening don’t disturb others.
In economy class cabins the greatest difference between cabin layouts (in the same model) is usually in the seat pitch. The twin galleys in the rear is an Airbus design while ElAl’s fleet is BoeingDecember 26, 2012 12:08 pm at 12:08 pm #915374uneeqMember
Wisey:I recently put on tefillin on an Air Canada flight under my coat. I probably looked strange wearing a coat with a hood, like an eskimo, on a plane but it would have been worse if I had put black boxes on my head and arm.
People are more afraid when it looks like you’re trying to hide something.December 26, 2012 1:52 pm at 1:52 pm #915375truthsharerMember
United doesn’t fly Airbus to Israel, they fly a Boeing 777. El-Al is still mostly on a 747 so it’s an older layout.December 26, 2012 2:06 pm at 2:06 pm #915376mogoldParticipant
I have been on Continental/United flights that had much more then 20-30 people, & the crew was extremely gracious in assisting with 2 minyanim, it was done respectfully and with ZERO disturbance to any passenger.
I have been on ELAL flights where a minyan would cause no disturbance as it was in middle of the night and most passengers were sleeping, but they wouldnt even consider any attempt to help a minyan….
Oh and I love DaMoshe’s comment, that ELAL knows of this psak & therefore prevents minyanim, well this is probably one of the only psakim they hold of….. maybe we can get all those rabbonim to pasken that its prohibited to be Mechallel Shabbos, so that ELAL should adhere to Shmiras Shabbos…now dont start tellig me that ELAL is Shomer Shabbos, go online and search for flights on any shabbos day & you will find ELAL flights that are mechalel Shabbos…
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