June 22, 2018 9:36 am at 9:36 am #1544993slominerParticipant
Some people complain that it is wrong to go to a kever to daven so that the Tzaddik can be a positive intermediary between the RBS”O and you. Yet we know Rochel Imeinu passed away on the way Specifically do that, later, the Yidden could stop by to daven by her when they were in trouble and passing by. Thus we see this is a very Torahdik behavior.June 22, 2018 11:22 am at 11:22 am #15450625ishParticipant
Although I believe there is absolutely no halachic prohibition of asking Tzaddikim to be a melitz yosher, your proof is no proof at all. It is easy to say that Rochel wished to be buried there in order to inspire the yidden to be mispallel, not because she intended for them to ask her to be mispallel on their behalf.June 22, 2018 1:23 pm at 1:23 pm #1545067YoavsrParticipant
It is my understanding that there is a difference between chassadish and litvish practices. Chassadim daven that tzadikim intervene on their behalf while litvish daven that the MERITS of these tzadikim help us nowJune 22, 2018 1:23 pm at 1:23 pm #1545070GadolhadorahParticipant
You can seek the intercession of a tzadik without physically being in proximity to their kever. such physical proximity may provide someone who is davening with an extra degree of kavanah but the Ebeshter will hear your tefillah wherever you are located. He doesn’t need to check a GPS to be certain you are standing next to the correct matzavah.June 22, 2018 5:19 pm at 5:19 pm #1545119
Being a Litvak, I was taught that you don’t daven to flesh and blood, not your favorite Tzaddik and not Rachel Imeinu. You daven to HKB”H. Period. No one else. You can ask HKB”H that in the merit of so-and-so you will be answered, but that’s not davening TO the tzaddik.
I used to get into discussions with my Catholic friends about how they could pray to the statues of saints, who were after all human. I never got a logical answer. The idea was to pray to the saint to intercede for the person, but that’s still praying to a human being.
Davening TO a tzaddik seems to me to be to be not quite kosher. If you visit the kever to help you concentrate, fine, but not to daven to the tzaddik him/herself.June 22, 2018 5:19 pm at 5:19 pm #1545125icemelterParticipant
Yoav-” litvish daven that the MERITS of these tzadikim help us now”
I thought thats how it was or everyone. Bizchus HaTzaddik. Isnt davening for intervention close to davening to the Tzaddik?June 23, 2018 10:17 pm at 10:17 pm #1545232slominerParticipant
Midwest2 and Godolhadora: I presume, based on your comments, you’d never have reason to go to Kever Rochel? At least you wouldn’t go there to daven when you could easier daven in a Beis Medrash.June 23, 2018 10:17 pm at 10:17 pm #1545234ToiParticipant
I love how some people think this is a topic we can just weigh in on, as if there haven’t been countless tshuvos written on the subject for hundreds of years. Shoitim.June 23, 2018 11:11 pm at 11:11 pm #1545293👑RebYidd23Participant
If there have been countless tshuvos written on the subject, it means that there was still what to weigh in on after the first few.June 24, 2018 2:36 pm at 2:36 pm #1545539ToiParticipant
@RY- Yes, but not for CR amaratzim shtelling major kishrin and thinking up new raayas.June 25, 2018 7:43 am at 7:43 am #1545781Shopping613 🌠Participant
I take the chassidish route.
If we believe in an eternal world than their neshomos are still around and they can intervene on our behalf.
Specifically on a yartzeit and the 3 days afterwards, the neshomo is said to come down to this world, and you can feel it in the air, and it’s kedusha.
I daven to HASHEM but I’ll also TALK to the neshoma, asking it to intervene.
I am not praying to it, I am talking to it. Also the entire time it’s so clear to me that Hashem is the one behind it all and he has the true power to allow something or not.June 25, 2018 7:49 am at 7:49 am #1545814JosephParticipant
Rav Avigdor Miller on Kivrei Tzadikim
Q: What is the function of going to a kever of a Tzadik?
A: And the function is what we spoke about today. And that is, in order to advertise to the world that the greatest thing in the world is to be a tzadik. And in the zechus of you going there and demonstrating that you appreciate the greatness of a tzadik, Hashem will reward you and listen to your tefilla. But you’re not praying to the tzadik, chas v’shalom.
Hakodosh Boruch Hu says, ‘If you understand how much I love this man, and not only him, but I even love his body because his body was kadosh. And now you come there, where his body was placed, for that purpose of showing that you appreciate the greatness, the holiness, of his body, then I’m going to reward you by listening to your tefilla. Thats the purpose of kivrei tzaddikim.
TAPE # E-8 (May 1995)June 26, 2018 8:18 am at 8:18 am #1546399WinnieThePoohParticipant
The verb for praying is in binyan hispael- l’hispallel, meaning the one praying is effecting (the e is not a typo) a change on himself. When one is praying at a kever, similar to a makom kadosh like the kosel, he is more likely to get inspired, by thinking about the tzaddik, how he lived, what Hashem wants from us (along the lines of what R’ Miller is saying in Joseph’s quote), and thus more likely to approach the tefilla in a way that it makes a difference in himself, his growth, and thus his tefilla has more meaning, and is more likely to be accepted.
It is simplistic to view a trip to Kever Rochel as an opportunity to ask Mamma Rochel to intervene for us. But rather, it could be used as an opportunity to think about galus, about what it means for Mamma Rochel’s children to be far from their borders, about Rochel’s sacrifice for Leah, about her yearning for children. These thoughts can inspire our own yearnings, and hence change our tefillos.June 26, 2018 5:54 pm at 5:54 pm #1546888
Winnie – yashir koach.June 27, 2018 4:00 pm at 4:00 pm #1547887DovidBTParticipant
Thanks, Joseph and WinnieThePooh. Those are the best explanations I’ve seen regarding davening at a burial site.July 3, 2018 11:58 am at 11:58 am #1550927
Look at Rashi Bamidbar 13:22 on ויבא עד חברון Kalev went to pray at the Meoras Hamachpelah to the avos not to be influenced by the Meraglim.July 3, 2018 5:10 pm at 5:10 pm #1551829
I just checked this in the old Linear Chumash with Rashi (the blue one) and with R’ Hirsch’s Commentary. The Linear Chumash translates ונשתטח as “prostrated himself” on their graves. R’ Isaak Levy’s translation is “went to pray on the graves of the forefathers for strength.” Neither makes any mention of davening TO the Avos, just that he went to the graves to pray.July 3, 2018 5:22 pm at 5:22 pm #1551837akupermaParticipant
Jews don’t daven VIA anyone but Ha-Shem. You must be confusing us with Catholics.July 3, 2018 6:30 pm at 6:30 pm #1551859
Pray to the Hashem to have the avos intervene in his behalf giving Kalev resistance not to be influenced using their zechusim.July 3, 2018 7:05 pm at 7:05 pm #1551867
What I said is incorrect. Look at gemora Sotah 34b rather than pray, he asked the avos to intevene in his behalf.July 3, 2018 9:34 pm at 9:34 pm #1551884
Look at Rashi Bereshis 48:7 on ואני בבאי מפדן where Rachel will get up from her grave to pray for usJuly 4, 2018 12:50 am at 12:50 am #1551982oyyoyyoyParticipant
What? don’t all litvish know the beautiful story with r chaim shmuelevitz?
“vein mameh vein”?July 4, 2018 5:51 am at 5:51 am #1551991SamSaposhnikParticipant
See Kitzur Shulchan Oruch 128 13.
נוֹהֲגִין לֵילֵךְ בְּעֶרֶב רֹאשׁ הַשָּׁנָה אַחַר תְּפִלַּת שַׁחֲרִית לְבֵית הַקְּבָרוֹת לְהִשְׁתַּטֵּחַ עַל קִבְרֵי הַצַּדִּיקִים, וְנוֹתְנִים שָׁם צְדָקָה לַעֲנִיִּים, וּמַרְבִּים תַּחֲנוּנִים לְעוֹרֵר אֶת הַצַּדִּיקִים הַקְּדוֹשִׁים אֲשֶׁר בָּאָרֶץ הֵמָּה, שֶׁיַּמְלִיצוּ טוֹב בַּעֲדֵנוּ בְּיוֹם הַדִּין. וְגַם מֵחֲמַת שֶׁהוּא מְקוֹם קְבוּרַת הַצַּדִּיקִים, הַמָּקוֹם הוּא קָדוֹשׁ וְטָהוֹר, וְהַתְּפִלָּה מְקֻבֶּלֶת שָׁם בְּיוֹתֵר, בִּהְיוֹתָהּ עַל אַדְמַת קֹדֶשׁ, וְיַעֲשֶׂה הַקָּדוֹשׁ בָּרוּךְ הוּא חֶסֶד בִּזְכוּת הַצַּדִּיקִים.
Translation from Sefaria.org
It is customary to go to the cemetery erev Rosh Hashanah after the Shacharis prayers and bow prayerfully at the graves of tzaddikim [righteous men]. Charity should be given to the poor, and many fervent supplications offered to arouse the saintly tzaddikim, in their eternal resting place to intercede for us on the Day of Judgement. An additional reason for going to the cemetery is that the place where tzaddikim are buried is sacred and pure, and prayers are more readily accepted when they are offered on sacred ground, and the Holy One, blessed is He, will show us kindness for the sake of the tzaddikim.July 4, 2018 5:58 am at 5:58 am #1552001dani34Participant
There are Poskim, that say, that there is nothing wrong if person ask Tzaddikim to intervene on his behalf and there are Poskim that do not recommend this.
Check Mishna Brura and Piskey Tshuva on Halachot Erev Rosh HaShana.
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