- This topic has 23 replies, 17 voices, and was last updated 6 years, 5 months ago by .
-
Posts
-
Some people complain that it is wrong to go to a kever to daven so that the Tzaddik can be a positive intermediary between the RBS”O and you. Yet we know Rochel Imeinu passed away on the way Specifically do that, later, the Yidden could stop by to daven by her when they were in trouble and passing by. Thus we see this is a very Torahdik behavior.
Although I believe there is absolutely no halachic prohibition of asking Tzaddikim to be a melitz yosher, your proof is no proof at all. It is easy to say that Rochel wished to be buried there in order to inspire the yidden to be mispallel, not because she intended for them to ask her to be mispallel on their behalf.
It is my understanding that there is a difference between chassadish and litvish practices. Chassadim daven that tzadikim intervene on their behalf while litvish daven that the MERITS of these tzadikim help us now
You can seek the intercession of a tzadik without physically being in proximity to their kever. such physical proximity may provide someone who is davening with an extra degree of kavanah but the Ebeshter will hear your tefillah wherever you are located. He doesn’t need to check a GPS to be certain you are standing next to the correct matzavah.
Being a Litvak, I was taught that you don’t daven to flesh and blood, not your favorite Tzaddik and not Rachel Imeinu. You daven to HKB”H. Period. No one else. You can ask HKB”H that in the merit of so-and-so you will be answered, but that’s not davening TO the tzaddik.
I used to get into discussions with my Catholic friends about how they could pray to the statues of saints, who were after all human. I never got a logical answer. The idea was to pray to the saint to intercede for the person, but that’s still praying to a human being.
Davening TO a tzaddik seems to me to be to be not quite kosher. If you visit the kever to help you concentrate, fine, but not to daven to the tzaddik him/herself.
Yoav-” litvish daven that the MERITS of these tzadikim help us now”
I thought thats how it was or everyone. Bizchus HaTzaddik. Isnt davening for intervention close to davening to the Tzaddik?
I love how some people think this is a topic we can just weigh in on, as if there haven’t been countless tshuvos written on the subject for hundreds of years. Shoitim.
If there have been countless tshuvos written on the subject, it means that there was still what to weigh in on after the first few.
@RY- Yes, but not for CR amaratzim shtelling major kishrin and thinking up new raayas.
I take the chassidish route.
If we believe in an eternal world than their neshomos are still around and they can intervene on our behalf.
Specifically on a yartzeit and the 3 days afterwards, the neshomo is said to come down to this world, and you can feel it in the air, and it’s kedusha.I daven to HASHEM but I’ll also TALK to the neshoma, asking it to intervene.
I am not praying to it, I am talking to it. Also the entire time it’s so clear to me that Hashem is the one behind it all and he has the true power to allow something or not.Rav Avigdor Miller on Kivrei Tzadikim
Q: What is the function of going to a kever of a Tzadik?
A: And the function is what we spoke about today. And that is, in order to advertise to the world that the greatest thing in the world is to be a tzadik. And in the zechus of you going there and demonstrating that you appreciate the greatness of a tzadik, Hashem will reward you and listen to your tefilla. But you’re not praying to the tzadik, chas v’shalom.
Hakodosh Boruch Hu says, ‘If you understand how much I love this man, and not only him, but I even love his body because his body was kadosh. And now you come there, where his body was placed, for that purpose of showing that you appreciate the greatness, the holiness, of his body, then I’m going to reward you by listening to your tefilla. Thats the purpose of kivrei tzaddikim.
TAPE # E-8 (May 1995)
The verb for praying is in binyan hispael- l’hispallel, meaning the one praying is effecting (the e is not a typo) a change on himself. When one is praying at a kever, similar to a makom kadosh like the kosel, he is more likely to get inspired, by thinking about the tzaddik, how he lived, what Hashem wants from us (along the lines of what R’ Miller is saying in Joseph’s quote), and thus more likely to approach the tefilla in a way that it makes a difference in himself, his growth, and thus his tefilla has more meaning, and is more likely to be accepted.
It is simplistic to view a trip to Kever Rochel as an opportunity to ask Mamma Rochel to intervene for us. But rather, it could be used as an opportunity to think about galus, about what it means for Mamma Rochel’s children to be far from their borders, about Rochel’s sacrifice for Leah, about her yearning for children. These thoughts can inspire our own yearnings, and hence change our tefillos.Winnie – yashir koach.
Thanks, Joseph and WinnieThePooh. Those are the best explanations I’ve seen regarding davening at a burial site.
Look at Rashi Bamidbar 13:22 on 讜讬讘讗 注讚 讞讘专讜谉 Kalev went to pray at the Meoras Hamachpelah to the avos not to be influenced by the Meraglim.
I just checked this in the old Linear Chumash with Rashi (the blue one) and with R’ Hirsch’s Commentary. The Linear Chumash translates 讜谞砖转讟讞 as “prostrated himself” on their graves. R’ Isaak Levy’s translation is “went to pray on the graves of the forefathers for strength.” Neither makes any mention of davening TO the Avos, just that he went to the graves to pray.
Jews don’t daven VIA anyone but Ha-Shem. You must be confusing us with Catholics.
Pray to the Hashem to have the avos intervene in his behalf giving Kalev resistance not to be influenced using their zechusim.
What I said is incorrect. Look at gemora Sotah 34b rather than pray, he asked the avos to intevene in his behalf.
Look at Rashi Bereshis 48:7 on 讜讗谞讬 讘讘讗讬 诪驻讚谉 where Rachel will get up from her grave to pray for us
What? don’t all litvish know the beautiful story with r chaim shmuelevitz?
“vein mameh vein”?See Kitzur Shulchan Oruch 128 13.
谞讜止讛植讙执讬谉 诇值讬诇值讱职 讘旨职注侄专侄讘 专止讗砖讈 讛址砖旨讈指谞指讛 讗址讞址专 转旨职驻执诇旨址转 砖讈址讞植专执讬转 诇职讘值讬转 讛址拽旨职讘指专讜止转 诇职讛执砖讈职转旨址讟旨值讞址 注址诇 拽执讘职专值讬 讛址爪旨址讚旨执讬拽执讬诐, 讜职谞讜止转职谞执讬诐 砖讈指诐 爪职讚指拽指讛 诇址注植谞执讬旨执讬诐, 讜旨诪址专职讘旨执讬诐 转旨址讞植谞讜旨谞执讬诐 诇职注讜止专值专 讗侄转 讛址爪旨址讚旨执讬拽执讬诐 讛址拽旨职讚讜止砖讈执讬诐 讗植砖讈侄专 讘旨指讗指专侄抓 讛值诪旨指讛, 砖讈侄讬旨址诪职诇执讬爪讜旨 讟讜止讘 讘旨址注植讚值谞讜旨 讘旨职讬讜止诐 讛址讚旨执讬谉. 讜职讙址诐 诪值讞植诪址转 砖讈侄讛讜旨讗 诪职拽讜止诐 拽职讘讜旨专址转 讛址爪旨址讚旨执讬拽执讬诐, 讛址诪旨指拽讜止诐 讛讜旨讗 拽指讚讜止砖讈 讜职讟指讛讜止专, 讜职讛址转旨职驻执诇旨指讛 诪职拽只讘旨侄诇侄转 砖讈指诐 讘旨职讬讜止转值专, 讘旨执讛职讬讜止转指讛旨 注址诇 讗址讚职诪址转 拽止讚侄砖讈, 讜职讬址注植砖讉侄讛 讛址拽旨指讚讜止砖讈 讘旨指专讜旨讱职 讛讜旨讗 讞侄住侄讚 讘旨执讝职讻讜旨转 讛址爪旨址讚旨执讬拽执讬诐.
Translation from Sefaria.org
It is customary to go to the cemetery erev Rosh Hashanah after the Shacharis prayers and bow prayerfully at the graves of tzaddikim [righteous men]. Charity should be given to the poor, and many fervent supplications offered to arouse the saintly tzaddikim, in their eternal resting place to intercede for us on the Day of Judgement. An additional reason for going to the cemetery is that the place where tzaddikim are buried is sacred and pure, and prayers are more readily accepted when they are offered on sacred ground, and the Holy One, blessed is He, will show us kindness for the sake of the tzaddikim.
There are Poskim, that say, that there is nothing wrong if person ask Tzaddikim to intervene on his behalf and there are Poskim that do not recommend this.
Check Mishna Brura and Piskey Tshuva on Halachot Erev Rosh HaShana.
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.