November 22, 2011 12:30 am at 12:30 am #600735EzratHashemMember
Did anyone see it? Is it ok or objectionable?November 22, 2011 12:57 am at 12:57 am #829587bekitzurParticipant
What’s wrong with seeing it?November 22, 2011 1:26 am at 1:26 am #829588
It has been said that they were written by the tzadukkim.November 22, 2011 2:11 am at 2:11 am #829589RSRHMember
Certainly they were written by one of the non-perushim sects that lived in the end of Bayis Sheini period. What does that have to do with viewing them?November 22, 2011 2:15 am at 2:15 am #829590
It has been said that they were written by the tzadukkim.
What difference does it make if thay were written by Essenes or Sadducees?November 22, 2011 3:43 am at 3:43 am #829591
I never said there is a problem. I have seen them myself in Israel. There is a din of burning a sefer Torah written by a kofer which the tzadukkim def were(that was just a side note).November 22, 2011 4:07 pm at 4:07 pm #829592EzratHashemMember
The exhibit, sponsored by Israel antiquities, also says they have 500 bible-related artifacts. I don’t see much interest in it by the frum velt. Trying to understand why.November 22, 2011 8:08 pm at 8:08 pm #829593
The exhibit, sponsored by Israel antiquities, also says they have 500 bible-related artifacts. I don’t see much interest in it by the frum velt. Trying to understand why.
The existance of Pharisee texts that differ from the Aleppo Codex is not something that they want to acknowledge.November 22, 2011 10:16 pm at 10:16 pm #829594
It seems to be that the mesora goes with the Aleppo Codex.November 22, 2011 11:52 pm at 11:52 pm #829595
But many people use the Mesorah not just to determine the Halacha but to determine historcal facts and when historical facts are discovered that controdict their “Mesorah based history”, they won’t accept those historical facts.November 23, 2011 1:52 am at 1:52 am #829596
Rav Schachter says that such an idea is ridiculous. He says that whenever we can prove something (really prove it) based on history that we have to adjust accordingly. His proof (I think he said the proof; if he didn’t it’s a great proof for the concept anyway) is the Gemara in Bava Basra where one of the Amoraim saw the Meisei Midbar and the other Amoraim called him a fool for not checking to see if their Tzitzis were like Beis Hillel or Beis Shammai. Even though the Mesorah was that the Halacha is like Beis Hillel against Beis Shammai (Beis Shammai B’makom Beis Hillel Aina Mishnah) they would have changed the Mekubal Halacha based on real historical proof.November 23, 2011 2:25 am at 2:25 am #829597yitayningwutParticipant
very nice rayaNovember 23, 2011 2:47 am at 2:47 am #829598tryinghardMember
I bought a lamp as a gift for someone. Can you ppl plz help me w/a poem? You’re doing a good job….
I would like s/t like… We should always give you naches that illuminates your heart…. wtvr, u know…. TIANovember 23, 2011 2:50 am at 2:50 am #829599tryinghardMember
Sorry. I made a mistake…November 23, 2011 3:32 am at 3:32 am #829600
Thanks. I wish I remembered if it was Rav Schachter’s or my own though. I’m pretty sure it’s his but I’m not positive. I’ve been trying to remember which Shiur he said the idea in so I can listen to it again and figure it out.November 23, 2011 2:18 pm at 2:18 pm #829601
This is a big machlokes between Rav Schachter, Rav chaim Herzog, et al on one side and the Chazon Ish, Rav eliashiv, et al on the other.November 23, 2011 2:36 pm at 2:36 pm #829602
Jothar: Can/do they answer the Ray’ah from Bava Basra?November 23, 2011 6:09 pm at 6:09 pm #829604
Sam2, Rabbi Chaim Jachter used to have a whole bunch of essays posted on his website which were taken down now that they are in his book “Grey matter”. I believe, iirc, that the answer was that that was a confirmed site, where they were saying “moshe emes vesoraso emes ve’anachnu badaim”. Any other archaelogical proof isn’t guaranteed. Some say they found the alter of Joshua, so you can measure it and determine the ama. But other archaeologists say it was just a tower. They found a piece of cloth which was based on the murex trunculus dye and it was a darker color. So this means the murex was techeiles, and it was darker? They didn’t find tzitzis. Finally, there is a gemara in bava metzia where the beis din shel maala paskened tamei and Hashem paskened tahor. Rambam paskens against Hashem. the meforshim analyze it and say emes is determined by chachamim. I saw it quoted here in the CR years ago, forgot exactly where.
As for oats as mezonos (machlokes rashi and rambam, yehuda felix backs rambam based on his research), my own rav is meikel for a bracha but says you shouldn’t eat oat matzos on pesach unless you have no choice, as we should be chosheish for the rambam. Yehuda Felix does not factor into it. Rav Shachter makes a ha’adama on it.November 23, 2011 6:32 pm at 6:32 pm #829605
Rav Schachter also agrees that it has to be definitive (real definitive) proof. As long as you can make a Ta’ana on it then it’s not historical enough. I don’t see what Paskening against Hashem has to do with historical proofs though.November 23, 2011 6:43 pm at 6:43 pm #829606
Sam2: There is another raya in my opinion concerning the gemara (sukka daf 5) with R’Eliezer who saw the tzitz in rome yet the chachamim didn’t go with that shita of how he saw it. They said it could be a b’dieved tzitz which is still usable. Meaning if a b’dieved tzitz would be invalid maybe they would have changed it,or you could learn maybe they had a mesora and they didn’t want to change it(not sure).November 23, 2011 7:23 pm at 7:23 pm #829607
Rav Schachter quotes that story. The Gemara brings that story as proof for what the Tzitz looks like and it seemed like the Maskana is like the Rabbi who says he saw it. The question everyone asks on the Rambam is why he Paskens against that opinion. Rav Schachter said that the Rambam would answer that how did he know he saw the real Tzitz in Rome? Maybe the Tzitz that they have in their storehouses was a fake or maybe those in charge at the end of Bayis Sheni (who were at times Tzeddukim) made the Tzitz incorrectly. (Actually, IMO it would make sense that a Tzedduki Tzitz would be in one line like a Pashut reading of the Passuk, right?)November 23, 2011 8:10 pm at 8:10 pm #829608
The case of it being a b’dieved tzitz is from the kesef mishna 9:1 kli hamikdash.November 23, 2011 8:10 pm at 8:10 pm #829609
The case of it being a b’dieved tzitz is from the kesef mishna 9:1 kli hamikdash.November 24, 2011 12:18 am at 12:18 am #829610
I saw another gemara(zevachim 85) which discuss R’Chanina S’gan Kohanim who said his father would push away blemished animals from on top of the mizbaech. The gemara then asks mai k’mashma lan so the gemara gives two answers, one in which the Tanna Kama did like his father the other answer seemed to go against what his father did in the mikdash.November 24, 2011 12:34 am at 12:34 am #829611
Sam2, you can’t get more definite than Hashem telling you what the halacha is. And yet, lo bashamayim hi. Rambam paskened against Hashem because Hashem TOLD us that we should go like the chachamim, not like Him. So even definitive archaeology wouldn’t overturn anything. Again, this is all off my head, but if someoen has Rabbi Jachter’s book and can quote chapter and verse I would love to hear it.November 24, 2011 1:13 am at 1:13 am #829612
Once again, Hashem Paskening something is different than a historical proof as to what the Sanhedrin Hagadol Paskened. Eilu V’eilu applies to Hashem too. Even though He has His P’sak He gave us the Reshus to overrule Him because of Lo Bashamayim Hi. We don’t have the Reshus to overrule the Sanhedrin Hagadol and Chazal. If we could know, with certainty, what they Paskened then we would have to follow them.November 24, 2011 3:27 am at 3:27 am #829613
Correct. We do not and cannot unless gadol bechachma ubeminyan. That is the main idea of mesorah. That is why we have mishnah and gemara, to know how they paskened. A pair of tefillin found at masada does not qualify for that it it argues on the gemara.
One recent issue that has reversed this whole thing is worms in fish. The gemara and shulchan aruch say it’s muttar, and some are saying we rely on science over mesorah and say they are assur.
Another big issue is the 167-year discrepancy between secular dating and Rabbinic dating- 586 vs 422 bce. The question is, is going like secular dating violating a halacha or not.November 24, 2011 3:50 am at 3:50 am #829614
A bigger issue are the early manuscripts of the Rambam that they are finding ,with girsa changes that imply a different halacha than what made it down through mesorah.
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