Debate Lakewood VS Chovevei Torah
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- This topic has 30 replies, 16 voices, and was last updated 13 years, 6 months ago by Bemused.
November 10, 2009 7:08 pm at 7:08 pm #590777yeshivaboy88Member
On Wednesday night November 11 at 7:30pm in the Teaneck JCC there will be a debate between Lakewood & Chovevei Torah (Avi Weiss’s Institution). I really feel bad for Chovevei Torah. Rabbi (Yitzchok) Feldheim (formerly the Rav in Yardley PA) Will be debating for Lakewood. Nobody can debate better than him. Rabbi feldheim is one amazing man. Can’t wait to be there when he wipes the floor with Avi Weiss is people.November 10, 2009 7:11 pm at 7:11 pm #667731John DoeMember
Yeshivat Chovevei Torah: Is It Orthodox?
February 21, 2007
The following article was printed in last weeks Yated. It is long, but it is a must read!November 10, 2009 7:27 pm at 7:27 pm #667732A600KiloBearParticipant
It is interesting that anyone who represents Lakewood is even willing to participate in a debate against what may well be the replacement for the dying CONservative movement. I am sure Rav Feldheim is doing it with full Daas Torah and will be very successful.November 10, 2009 7:33 pm at 7:33 pm #667733Josh31Participant
Both “Lakewood” and YCT come across to me as being too innovative, although in opposite directions.November 10, 2009 8:08 pm at 8:08 pm #667735tzippiMember
What does that mean, YCT vs. BMG? Isn’t YCT vs. a typical yeshiva? I would think Rabbi Feldheim, like it or not, is representing a wide gamut of yeshivos, at least in the eyes of the YCTniks who’ll be there.November 10, 2009 8:24 pm at 8:24 pm #667736
What’s the point of such a debate?November 10, 2009 8:42 pm at 8:42 pm #667737charliehallParticipant
YCT is Orthodox; I know a number of students there. And I know a Lakewood-trained rabbi who has had YCT Rosh Yeshiva Dov Linzer give shiurim at his shul.
I personally think joint appearances with rabbis from two yeshivot that have different hashkafot is very dangerous. If we religious Jews actually can get along with each other while disagreeing, that might bring mashiach. We can’t possibly permit that!November 10, 2009 8:48 pm at 8:48 pm #667738
I assume they have good reasons, but it is not readily apparent to me what good can come from a debate like this.November 10, 2009 8:49 pm at 8:49 pm #667739
I’d like to get a YWN report from this event, or better still, a video or audio link.November 10, 2009 9:16 pm at 9:16 pm #667740
Just-a-guy I look forward to reading reports of the event here, in the Yated and in the Jewish Week.November 10, 2009 9:26 pm at 9:26 pm #667741cholentkugelkishkeMember
Can YWN post a live hook-up or a video afterwards?November 10, 2009 9:30 pm at 9:30 pm #667742jewish sourceParticipant
CHOIVLEI TORAHNovember 10, 2009 9:44 pm at 9:44 pm #667743tzippiMember
I’m not one for needing haskamos for everything but do wonder if there’s anyone else behind this. I can’t help but think of the R’ Reinman-Hirsch appearances (that weren’t) and the resulting flak. I know, apples and oranges but I do wonder what the backstory to this one is.November 11, 2009 5:17 am at 5:17 am #667744shaatraMember
What’s the point?November 11, 2009 5:26 am at 5:26 am #667745charliehallParticipant
As to the “What’s the point”? I would think that Torah would be the point — these are both Orthodox yeshivot!
What I would really love to see would be for Rabbi Mattisyahu Solomon to debate Rabbi Hershel Schachter on Zionism.November 11, 2009 2:16 pm at 2:16 pm #667746
charliehall wrote: “As to the “What’s the point”? I would think that Torah would be the point — these are both Orthodox yeshivot!”
But what specifically about Torah, and what will the debate actually be about?November 11, 2009 2:47 pm at 2:47 pm #667747Feif UnParticipant
I just wonder where it’s taking place… there is no JCC in Teaneck. Did you mean Tenafly?November 11, 2009 3:06 pm at 3:06 pm #667748
[blockquote]charliehall wrote: “As to the “What’s the point”? I would think that Torah would be the point — these are both Orthodox yeshivot!”[/blockquote]
With the female track for rabbincal ordination (calling them Mahara’t does not effect the nature of this endeavor), encouraging interfaith outreach and joining with Reform, Conservative and even Christians in religious functions, and in general looking for ways to relax the halacha under the guise of kiruv raise serious questions about the nature of YCT and if in fact it represents Orthodox Judaism.
I hope the debate will address these issues and spread some light on the YCT phenomenon.November 11, 2009 3:22 pm at 3:22 pm #667749jphoneMember
This sounds like a no win situation for everyone involved.November 11, 2009 4:25 pm at 4:25 pm #667750
The risk for a bizayon haTorah, on both sides of the ideological divide is great in such an event. The OP demonstrates the risk.November 11, 2009 4:46 pm at 4:46 pm #667751
There is a risk as well to not confronting movements which could pose a threat of leading Jews away from Torah due to their departure from mainstream Orthodox halacha.
I know firsthand how detrimental a graduate from YCT can be for a shul.November 11, 2009 4:55 pm at 4:55 pm #667752
Confront it all you want. But not in this type of forum. There are appropriate ways to address what some might consider to be unacceptably divergent views and actions. I don’t think a public disputation is one of them.November 11, 2009 5:03 pm at 5:03 pm #667753
I’m not sure if I have enough information yet, but from what I know so far, I predict that this event will end with at least half the crowd alienated from the other half.
EDITEDNovember 11, 2009 5:32 pm at 5:32 pm #667754
That’s how things already are.
What I hope will come of this kind of exchange is a realization by Avi Weiss and his group that they should consider modifying their approach and seriously considering dropping the label “Open Orthodox” since, IMO, they have done more to divide than unite with their movement.November 11, 2009 5:42 pm at 5:42 pm #667755
There is nothing more alienating/divisive, etc., than for one group of Jews to tell others that they are not real Jews, or true Jews, or good Jews, or Jews who do not properly follow halacha, etc., even if some of those things might be true. I’m not saying that halacha should be compromised at all, I’m saying that attention must be paid to the manner and the forum in which these issues are addressed. There are about 100 ways to push people away, and very few ways to pull them closer.November 12, 2009 5:47 pm at 5:47 pm #667757
Anyone know what happened at the great debate?November 12, 2009 6:22 pm at 6:22 pm #667758Pashuteh YidMember
1) The way to tell if a movement is Orthodox is simply whether they follow Shulchan Oruch and the Rambam’s Thirteen Articles of Faith.
2) Rav Bamberger, the godol hador at the time of Rav Hirsch, was against the Austrit (secession movement), and felt there was nothing wrong with having a unified kehillah along with the Reform.
3) I don’t know which movement is more anti-zionist, Lakewood or YCT. Instead of debating why not become comrades in arms.
EDITEDNovember 12, 2009 6:43 pm at 6:43 pm #667759BemusedParticipant
I really want to know this: why is it smug to call something a Gezeirah and say that we don’t understand? Your tone indicates that there is something wrong with calling something in the Torah a Gezeirah, or something wrong with not understanding. Can you explain what you meant?November 12, 2009 7:15 pm at 7:15 pm #667760Pashuteh YidMember
Bemused, my point is not whether or not there are gezeiros we don’t understand. My point is that if one decides it is morally OK for one to kill based on the teachings of a holy book, that must carry across the board to the holy books of all religions and give them license to kill, as well. The Crusaders were hence justified in killing Jews, if their holy books say one must die for rejecting Jesus.
One can say I will keep kashrus although I don’t understand, because it is a gezeira. But when one is dealing with killing other humans, one better make sure 100% that he does understand what he is doing and the justification for doing so.
When you hear of a suicide bombing, do you instinctively say these were righteous, religious people who meant well and were dedicated to serving G-d even to the point of giving up their lives for Him, or do you say these were reshaim, scum of the earth who would even kill women and children with no human feelings of mercy? I personally do the latter.November 12, 2009 7:23 pm at 7:23 pm #667761
“The way to tell if a movement is Orthodox is simply whether they follow Shulchan Oruch and the Rambam’s Thirteen Articles of Faith.”
Do these fall into that category?
1. Inviting a Reform rabbi to speak from the Bimah on Shabbat (and giving him an aliyah)
2. Holding a women’s service on Shabbat with a Bat Mitzvah doing a Haftorah in the library (while the Torah was being read in the main sanctuary)
3. Allowing a woman to wrap tefillin during Shacharit
4. Teaching Iyov with a Baptist Minister
5. Conducting a “Social Action Seder” (during sefira) along with a Reform Rabbi
6. Inviting a Baptist choir to sing (from the bimah) on Martin Luther King day
7. Inviting a “Scholar in Residence” whose topic was why the Rambam did not really mean you had to believe his Thirteen Articles of Faith.November 12, 2009 7:25 pm at 7:25 pm #667762BemusedParticipant
I’m still not understanding, even though you did try (in three paragraphs yet :). I don’t think the Yated was advocating that people should go out and kill someone. So for my question, whether or not we want others to kill, etc, why is it smug to call something a Gezeira or to say we don’t understand something? Why is it wrong to call something a Gezeria or state that we don’t understand? In what way were the Yated’s words incorrect, or “smug”? Thank you.
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