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- This topic has 137 replies, 18 voices, and was last updated 11 hours, 58 minutes ago by ubiquitin.
February 1, 2023 9:47 am at 9:47 am #2161531
Happy to help
Explain to your kid that society needs certain things to function. roads is an easy example that he can see. We all need roads, to get to school, work fun places. Even someone how doesn’t have a car needs roads for the bus that he takes.
Even someone who says I’ll never take busses still needs roads for deliveries to his local store, and of course for emergencies like fire department.
so how should we pay for roads? We can’t just hope everyone will on their own understand this. Many have trouble with this simple concept. so we have the government in charge they collect taxes from everybody and use that money to pay for things that we all need including roads.
S oalthough it feels free to use roads, they do in fact cost money, this is a cost that is paid by all of us
where it gets a little trickier is what “jobs” fall into the governments purview.
Many believe healthcare is such a thing. Just like we all pay taxes to be used for roads that we as a society need, regardless of how much you personally use the road. Same thing for healthcare we all pay taxes to fund healthcare that we as a society need.
now before you get nervous that this would cause taxes to go up by a lot, keep in mind we already pay a ton for healthcare it isn’t “free” I pay 11,000 in premiums my employer (boss) pays the same for me. My taxes could go up by a bit over 20,000 dollars and I’d still end up ahead
hope this helps, Once your kid gets it have him explain it to you.February 1, 2023 2:08 pm at 2:08 pm #2161604
“I agree that the government is supposed to help the population”
Great so we fundamentally agree.
We can hammer out nitty gritty details another day, if you want the Government to deter people from smoking, deter people who don’t exercise or eat too much red meat, I can get behind that. It makes me a bit squeamish (I love government oversight but even I have my limits) but if that ‘s what it takes to get you on board, I can get behind increased government oversight on diet/exercise etcFebruary 1, 2023 2:40 pm at 2:40 pm #2161648ujmParticipant
“I can get behind increased government oversight on diet/exercise etc”
Next the government can get into the shidduch scene and have their shadchanim making shidduchim.February 1, 2023 5:25 pm at 5:25 pm #2161662
To add another 2 cents on taxes:
1) The idea that taxes means “taking away from one (rich) person to give to another (not rich) person ” is a tragically flawed and selfish view of taxation. It benefits everyone that we have a functioning government and society.
2) The idea that republicans are against taxes is absurd. Republicans love taxes or else they wouldn’t be able to pay for anything that a functioning government and society needs.
Rich republicans have hoodwinked people to believe that 1 and 2 are true.
They have built a system over time where the rich people do not have to pay their fair share. They have brainwashed people so that every time they are demanded to pay their fair share they claim that it is unfair.
The tax rate for rich people has gone down drastically. Before 1986 the tax rate for married filing jointly was 50% for 175,00.
Now it is 37% for 687,000
They have also hoodwinked people to believe that red states aren’t bigger takers in federal funds that they give back.February 1, 2023 5:27 pm at 5:27 pm #2161688
Ask your son a simple question. Remind him of any friends or acquaintances that have special needs.
Does he believe that society should just abandon these people since they are incapable of taking care of themselves or does he believe that he should contribute together with other people in order to enrich their lives?
Then ask him if he feels that it is fair that he should contribute the same amount as bill gates and elon musk.February 1, 2023 5:42 pm at 5:42 pm #2161747
“I did read the conversation but you are approaching the conversation exactly backwards.
THe starting point is a question of role of government.”
I guess there could have been different ways to start it depending on what you wanted the outcome to be. Given who the post was meant for I think I started in the correct place- gettting @Jackk to admit that there are times when the govermnent shouldn’t step in (i.e. when Mr. A and his family would suffer the loss of their house and savings due to the shear utter irresponsiblilty of Mr. B).
@Jackk did respond but his response was very vague and didn’t answer the simple “Yes” or “No” question. I asked for clarification but as of now he has yet to respond. Given the outcome I think I started in the correct place.February 1, 2023 6:41 pm at 6:41 pm #2161752
“He has also described every day scenarios where nobody was willfully negligent but still was caught in the death trap of our capitalistic system of healthcare.”
That wasn’t what my question. Answer my simple question and we can move on to the scenarios @ubiquitin brought up.
“I do not understand how anyone can believe that government is NOT supposed to help the population.”
Again- the goverment IS supposed to help the population, what we disagree on is to what extent.
“I do not understand how anyone can believe that Selfish Capitalism is the Torah view.”
If you can show me where in the Torah it says to pay people not to work so that they should vote for a political party that promotes actions that the Torah calls abonimable and murder than we can discuss that.February 1, 2023 6:41 pm at 6:41 pm #2161754
“Dr. P; Not sure who or what your were responding to but you make some good points.”
I was responding to your post, your original post didn’t mention Medicare/Medicaid.
I understood what you were saying and yes if the goverment can spend $100 today to avoid spending several thousand dollars 5 or 10 years in the future (depending on your assumed discount rate), it should do so.
I feel that the government should spend money on these people when they’re young to point them in the correct direction- this will enable them to take care of themselves when they get older and save the goverment much more than the initial investment.
I also feel that the goverment should spend $100 now to lock up petty thieves for the night and teach them a lesson before they potentially spend in the millions when the person becomes a murderer.
However there has to be a line drawn somewhere- as to what the goverment will cover for the takers at the expene of the makers.February 1, 2023 6:41 pm at 6:41 pm #2161756
“why discourage him?”
Because when well meaning people have tried that in the past the results were catastophic- the companies became insolvent and were liquidated while the providers were out hundreds of thousands of Dollars for services they rendered but didn’t get paid for and the policy holders had to start their massive deductibles all over again in the middle of the year (and then again in January).February 1, 2023 6:42 pm at 6:42 pm #2161759
Decreasing taxes stimulates the economy as it turns takers into makers and it gives the rich makers more of an incentive to grow their businesses and hire more takers (who will begin paying taxes instread of taking them). Look at how the economy was soaring for the first three years under Former President Trump (I know in the past you’ve claimed that it was a disaster but haven’t provided a single reason) until President Bidens friends released the virus (probably on purpose to weaken the president).
Increasing taxes does the opposite.
“Ask your son a simple question. Remind him of any friends or acquaintances that have special needs.
Does he believe that society should just abandon these people since they are incapable of taking care of themselves or does he believe that he should contribute together with other people in order to enrich their lives?”
As I mentioned before- if it was only people with special needs that the goverment was supporting (and those temporarily down on their luck) the entitlements disaster would be a non-issue.
“Then ask him if he feels that it is fair that he should contribute the same amount as bill gates and elon musk.”
You mentioned before that Elon Musk didn’t pay any income tax while according to CNN he paid $11 Billion. Would you care to explain the discrepancy or provide your sources?February 1, 2023 9:18 pm at 9:18 pm #2161782
“..to admit that there are times when the govermnent shouldn’t step in (i.e. when Mr. A and his family would suffer the loss of their house and savings due to the shear utter irresponsibility of Mr. B).”
I don’t think anyone here has ever suggested anything like that. that you needed them to “admit” they wouldn’t support that. T ohave one neighbor “chosen” to sponsor his neighbor ? Thats a made up thing that doesnt happen in any socity and I dont think has ever ben seriously suggested to happenFebruary 2, 2023 7:45 am at 7:45 am #2161843
Thanks for everyone trying to help my kid to become smarter. Thanks a lot, government educational system and papers provided already enough material! B’H, kids did not buy into that. I worked hard on that – we watched Bernie-Hilary debates so that they can see an unabashed socialist in the wild, and before listened (sic!) to Obama-Romney debate. For O-R debate, most kids did not know my preferences, and Romney won by a knockout after Obama promised hiring 100,000 math teachers.
For B-H debate, the risk was too high, so I was providing running commentary and it seemed to stick.
Also, when kids finally learned numbers, I showed them the salary I draw and asked them to compute the size of the paycheck, and then showed the paycheck. They felt robbed and started studying all the taxes and fees …
Anyway, all I need is for someone to show up here so that the kids see that such believers exist and I am not making it up. Thanks!February 2, 2023 7:46 am at 7:46 am #2161844
Dr. Pepper, this is how free market works – people are trying to do things, some more, some less risky, and some of them work out. You mentioned insurance problem. We, “the people”, had lot of unsolvable problems – horses were hard to feed, wheat was hard to mill, houses were only 2 floors high, and cows were killed to write on scrolls… somehow, people solved many of these problems, so don”t be so upset about the remaining ones.February 2, 2023 9:33 am at 9:33 am #2161928
That’s exactly the point- I was trying to start on common ground with something that we hopefully both agree on and move on from there by making incremental changes to see where we start to disagree.
I purposely picked a scenario where even the looniest of the loony leftists liberals would hopefully agree with me. I agree that’s it’s unrealistic which is why I emphasized that it was hypothetical.
Eventually I was going to get to the ACA where my savings were wiped out and I couldn’t afford my mortgage after my health insurance expenses went up in the range of $10,000 per year.
@jackk doesn’t seem to have an issue with this so I wanted to see where along the road we diverge. Unfortunately he starts discussions and leaves as well as stating his opinions without backing them up.February 2, 2023 9:34 am at 9:34 am #2161932
The way to solve a problem is to think of something new- not try something that others have already tried and failed catastrophically at.
Unfortunately, the design of the ACA does not allow insurers to put the health of the policy holder first. (I doubt it was intentional but as Nancy Pelosi famously said, “ You need to pass it to see what’s in it”). There have been insurance companies set up to put the health of the insureds first and the outcome was devastating to everyone involved.
(I read a long white paper sent to the architects of the ACA, I think through CMS, outlining why the ACA couldn’t mathematically work out and their one line response was something to the sort of “we read your concerns and they aren’t true”, of course without providing any explanation.)February 2, 2023 10:39 am at 10:39 am #2161950
first I’m sorry to hear about your hardship. ACA ws a while go, I hope things have improved .
I still think you are approaching this backwards. As I think the more FUNDAMENTAL question is one on the role of government. But Of course you can approach it the other way as well.
to answer your question, no, no one specific person whould be forced to support another specific person.
What was the next question going to be?February 2, 2023 2:03 pm at 2:03 pm #2161963
I’m also sorry to hear about your hardship.
We should not be discussing the ACA.
We are discussing basics of government’s responsibility to ensure that Americans do not need to travel to Hungary in order to get dental care because insurance is too expensive, does not cover everything and the premiums are through the roof.
.February 2, 2023 2:03 pm at 2:03 pm #2161967
“first I’m sorry to hear about your hardship. ACA ws a while go, I hope things have improved .”
It was all for the best. Our lives are so much better now, the kids grew much more than had we stayed in NYC, I can get to Shachris in the morning (and make it through the entire day) without having to see the advertisements by the bus stops…
I also learned an important lesson- I was davening to Hashem for all the wrong things and was disappointed when my Tefillos weren’t answered. I asked Hashem if I could please finally get the promotion I was promised which would have enabled me to make my mortgage payments and not have to move. At the time I didn’t understand that I was davening for the wrong things but looking back now I’m so happy that my Tefillos weren’t answered for what I was asking for but for what Hashem knew we needed and what was best for us.
“What was the next question going to be?”
I would’ve taken cues from his response(s) but generally I would have changed the parameters one at a time until I got to the situation I was in due to the ACA.
1. What if Mr. A is replaced with many Mr. A’s and each one is only charged $10,000?
2. What if Mr. B is replaced with many Mr. B’s, some of which are in their situation due to irresponsible choices while others are there from sheer bad luck?February 2, 2023 5:35 pm at 5:35 pm #2162037
Glad to hear things are doing better
To answer your question
Yes without question We should collect from the A’s (and the B’s) to fund the healthcare of the B’s (and the A’s).
The reason for this is I don’t think there is any realistic way to ensure the B’s behave. Nor is there a real way to sepperate health costs based on “irresponsible choices” vs “bad luck” That said, As I mentioned I could be convinced to have more government oversight on behavior to ensure the B’s “behave” perhaps some financial penalty for smoking, not excercising , eating too much meat etc etc .
I cant say I love it, but if this would get you on board I’m in. Is that your suggestion?February 2, 2023 6:19 pm at 6:19 pm #2162109
Next question- could the government collect to the extent that a hard working family would lose their house?
“I cant say I love it, but if this would get you on board I’m in. Is that your suggestion?”
No, I think the government needs to step back and let people (again those who are capable) take care of themselves.
On a different thread I mentioned numerous items that are big issues now because people don’t take responsibility for themselves and rely on the government. This is bankrupting the country and can’t continue like this forever.February 2, 2023 6:20 pm at 6:20 pm #2162105
“I’m also sorry to hear about your hardship.”
So now that you see the devastating effects that the ACA had and continues to have on millions of hard working families, who were struggling beforehand to pay for their own healthcare, do you still think it was the right decision?
“We should not be discussing the ACA.”
Technically this discussion is about Dental care so you are correct but it would be foolish to not learn from the mistakes of the ACA.
“We are discussing basics of government’s responsibility to ensure that Americans do not need to travel to Hungary in order to get dental care because insurance is too expensive, does not cover everything and the premiums are through the roof.
The governments responsibility needs to stop somewhere already. The government should be in the business of building infrastructure for everyone, showing citizens at a young age how to be responsible for themselves later on and being there for those who physically or mentally can not take care of themselves as well as those who are temporarily down on their luck.
I explained earlier what the problem is with dental insurance. Insurance companies are a business that makes money by calculating risk and charging a premium to take the on the risk. The nature of dental claims is that large claims can sometimes be pushed off until the insured temporarily purchases a higher level of coverage. This behavior changes the “risk” into a “known” and the insurance company needs to raise the premiums through the roof and only cover part of the claim.
Let’s say drivers could look into a crystal ball to see if they’re going to be at fault for an accident for the upcoming year and only purchase insurance if they’re going to need it. Do you see why the insurer would need to dramatically raise the premiums and cut down on coverage in those cases?
As far as why the Hungarian dentists are so much cheaper- maybe the standard of living is less in Hungary so they could afford to charge less, maybe education is cheaper since they’re only paying for their education and not for all those people who took out loans for $400,000 to get a degree in gender studies and have no plans on paying it back or maybe they don’t have to spend enormous amounts on malpractice insurance as the population there isn’t so trigger happy to sue.
Ask your dentist next time you go.February 2, 2023 10:39 pm at 10:39 pm #2162136
I think you can still have private insurance? Are yo saying that ACA distorts the market to such a degree that it makes insurance impossible? I am not a baki. I believe large companies, like walmart, self-insure – does their method work?
Is it possible to create an association of responsible daveners who also do not smoke and machmir in middos and pool an insurance coverage? maybe, self-insure? As an example, R Avigdor Miller mentions that shabbos saves us from risky saturday driving and other risky behaviors – we should be able to get better rates…
My mesroah says that there are at least 36 potential members in every generation – is this large enough for a pool?February 2, 2023 11:05 pm at 11:05 pm #2162140
“Next question- could the government collect to the extent that a hard working family would lose their house?”
Though taxes will go up if as a result of that Their mortgage is too expensive then I guess yes.
Of course some would argue that Having gotten a mortgage that leaves Them so vulnerable to a tax increase is irresponsible behavior what we would expect from Mr. B not A. nonetheless even though some would call him irresponsible I still think he should have access to affordable health careFebruary 2, 2023 11:07 pm at 11:07 pm #2162151
“Next question- could the government collect to the extent that a hard working family would lose their house?”
I have a pending answer
to be clear, this isn’t limited to Healthcare
The Government can raise taxes for los of things that fall into their purview. If the government feels they need to raise taxes to better arm Ukraine, even if I don’t care about Ukraine they can do that.
Same thing here IF (big IF, as I said this is THE key to all the other questions) it is the governments role to fund healthcare for all. then they can raise taxes even if an overextended few may lose their housesFebruary 3, 2023 9:45 am at 9:45 am #2162232CTLAWYERParticipant
Here in CT, yesterday the Governor announced a plan to pay off individual’s medical debt. We as a community have an obligation to provide healthcare for all.
Mrs. CTL’s final hospital stay in August resulted in a bill of $198,000. My share after insurance and adjustments was a number of thousands of dollars. B”H I can afford to pay this, but it could put some people over the edge and cause loss of home. Medical debt is an obligation of both spouses, by law. Take a lower middle class working or retired couple hit with a large medical bill, couple it with death of a spouse and loss of income (paycheck, social security, pension) while fixed housing expense continues and it is a recipe for disaster.
I am not dependent on the lost income, but the almost $4,000 a month in retirement income she received is no longer funding it’s way to Tzedaka each month.February 3, 2023 11:51 am at 11:51 am #2162240
I had private insurance at the time (and still do) through my employer so while the premiums and deductibles skyrocketed they weren’t nearly as draconian as it was for those who didn’t have through their employer. (People who come in to work every day tend to be healthier and do less dangerous things than the general population so the part of the premium that insures them will be less while the part of the premium that insures the takers will be the same.)
“Are yo saying that ACA distorts the market to such a degree that it makes insurance impossible?”
I wrote that the design of the ACA doesn’t make mathematical sense and has a 0% chance of working as intended. Last I checked it was on life support and the government just keeps throwing more and more money into it. Do you recall when Former President Obama said that the average family will save $2,500 annually through the ACA? Have you seen that money yet?
“I believe large companies, like walmart, self-insure – does their method work?”
Some large companies to self-insure (they don’t need to be as large as Walmart to self-insure) but their rates went through the roof as well. There’s a checklist a health insurance plan needs to pass to be compliant and those plans need to pass them as well. (And like I said earlier- the premiums contain a huge chunk to cover the takers.)
“Is it possible to create an association of responsible daveners who also do not smoke and machmir in middos and pool an insurance coverage? maybe, self-insure?”
It’s highly unlikely. You probably don’t know much of what goes on in the background but such a pool woulnd’t be part of a network and would have to pay claims at the out of network rate. (Labs are notorious for charging hundres of Dollars for tests that get reduced to under $10 after the negotiated rate.) And as mentioned before- the pool wouldn’t be in comliance with the ACA.
“My mesroah says that there are at least 36 potential members in every generation – is this large enough for a pool?”
Uh, no- it’s not enough to spread the risk around for the medical conditions that don’t arise through negligence.February 3, 2023 11:51 am at 11:51 am #2162241
“Of course some would argue that Having gotten a mortgage that leaves Them so vulnerable to a tax increase is irresponsible behavior what we would expect from Mr. B not A.”
There’s got to be a line drawn here as well. Would you say that someone who can’t afford a $100 annual tax increase without defaulting on their mortgage is irresponsible? Definitely.
How about $10,000 – Possibly.
How about $100,000 Definitely not.
Where do you draw the line?
“nonetheless even though some would call him irresponsible I still think he should have access to affordable health care”
I agree to this 100%, but the money needs to come from somewhere and we seem to disagree on where it should come from.February 3, 2023 11:51 am at 11:51 am #2162252
My deepest sympathies to you and your entire family on your tragic loss. May Hashem give you all the strength to move forward.
“We as a community have an obligation to provide healthcare for all.”
This isn’t something I’m arguing on. However, as I’ve mentioned before, the money has to come from somewhere and I seem to disagree with others here as to where the money should be coming from.
I’ve also been stating for some time that the goverment should be teaching people at a younger age how to lead a healthy life style and set them up for success later on in life where they won’t have to rely on the goverment for food, housing, transportation, healthcare…
A Gutten ShabbosFebruary 5, 2023 1:35 am at 1:35 am #2162459
there are 2 questions here:
1) why healthcare is so expensive
2) how to pay for it
for one, US spends more than others, but not astronomically (I recall 17% of GP v 12% for other OECD countries). This is not that bad. And other than Torah learning and defense, what else should country spend on? Even if some of that is waste, still it is an indicator that the country throws money at people’s health.
2) You can’t convince me that a fully socialized medicine does not create moral hazard – for not taking care of themselves and not working to cover expenses. When we show kids dental bills – they start brushing more often for a week or two. So, covering catastrophic cases and showing chesed – yes, but making it free-for-all – no. One less explored direction is to make capitalism work rather than trying to socialize it –
allow insurances compete across state lines
transparent pricing rather than secret bargaining between large groups. Under Trump, there was a new rule requiring hospitals to post their prices. I believe it went into affect at the early months of Biden, and that was the last time I heard about it. Not sure what happened.February 6, 2023 10:05 am at 10:05 am #2162864
“There’s got to be a line drawn here as well. …Where do you draw the line?”
oh fur sure theres a line.
Though probably more of a percentage than a real number. MEaning
If a person makes 100,000 one year then 1,000,000 then next year yes his taxes should go up by > 100,000.
you say “How about $10,000 – Possibly. How about $100,000 Definitely not…”
no politiican would dream of raising taxes that much (for the average worker who didnt get a 10 fold increase in salary .
However as I mentioned before there is an easy solution
I pay > 11K in premiums my boss pays the same
My boss pays me that money I sto ppaing private company. My taxes go up by 20K I pocket the remaining `3 K win win win
Again. I f you dont think the government should be involved in health care this comment is crazy. As I said that is the starting point
…”the money needs to come from somewhere and we seem to disagree on where it should come from”
Exactly s Ive been saying I think it should be government run with the money coming from taxes, think of an expanded medicareFebruary 6, 2023 11:43 am at 11:43 am #2162900
I thank you for going back and forth about taxation and healthcare with DrP. He is getting answers that are very close to what I have written but I simply do not have the patience to go back and forth.
My 2 cents are that the Government has an infinite ability to spend money that it does not have. It simply prints it.
When it does , it is called a deficit. The current deficit is 31 Trillion. If we wanted to pay it all off, the government could raise taxes on everyone this year to raise it. That would never be done, because it would cause the economy to tank, impoverish everybody and cause a civil war.
The standard options to pay for what the government spends are either raising taxes or let the deficit grow and hope that tax revenue will also grow without the need to raise taxes.
There is never a one to one relationship between new government spending and raising taxation.February 6, 2023 1:39 pm at 1:39 pm #2162930
The bulk of health care expenses in the US could be avoided if people were to take responsibility for themselves I.e. be health conscious from a young age, eat healthier, do less stupid dangerous things…
Instead of thinking about how to pay for it the government should be thinking of how to avoid the expenses in the first place. If more takers were makers there would be more people taking responsibility for their health, less people with too much free time on their hands to do dangerous things, less crime and more people paying health insurance premiums (that help pay for the medical care for people who need it due to no fault of their own). There would also be less people voting Democrat so the liberals in the government would never allow that to happen.
Do you sit down and try to figure out where you’re going to get the money to pay for a new car when it dies because you refuse to get an oil change or do you get and oil change at the manufacturers recommended intervals?February 6, 2023 1:40 pm at 1:40 pm #2162942
“oh fur sure theres a line.
Though probably more of a percentage than a real number. MEaning
If a person makes 100,000 one year then 1,000,000 then next year yes his taxes should go up by > 100,000.”
Agreed, but that’s not what we’re talking about and you know that.
“no politiican would dream of raising taxes that much (for the average worker who didnt get a 10 fold increase in salary .”
Do you recall a former President named Barak Hussein Obama? He did exactly that. It may not have been in income tax or sales tax but it was a forced tax on the hard working makers to pay the premiums for the lazy takers and yes, my salary remained relatively the same but my health insurance costs skyrocketed by around $10,000 a year.
“However as I mentioned before there is an easy solution
I pay > 11K in premiums my boss pays the same
My boss pays me that money I sto ppaing private company. My taxes go up by 20K I pocket the remaining `3 K win win win”
As I mentioned before that’s not going to work. Your expensive health insurance plan is cheaper because they know that you’re working which puts you in a healthier and more responsible class (which is a reason employers offer it in the first place). Once you don’t get insurance through your employer you’re not in that same group anymore.
“Again. I f you dont think the government should be involved in health care this comment is crazy. As I said that is the starting point”
I’ll mention again what I’ve been writing all along. The government should be involved in health care for those who (for mental and physical reasons) can not take care of themselves as well as those who are temporarily down on their luck, I.e. as a safety net. Not for lazy people who want society to do everything for them.
”Exactly s Ive been saying I think it should be government run with the money coming from taxes, think of an expanded medicare”
Again, this will not work until people start taking responsibility for themselves and the ratio of avoidable medical expenses to unavoidable expenses gets flipped.February 6, 2023 1:43 pm at 1:43 pm #2162947
“I thank you for going back and forth about taxation and healthcare with DrP. He is getting answers that are very close to what I have written”
You’re answers have been purposely vague and do not address the points that I’ve made.
“but I simply do not have the patience to go back and forth.”
Excuse me for being blunt about this but you’re a LIAR. You’re not answering because you don’t have a valid answer. If you felt you had a reasonable response you’d have more than enough patience to respond.
“ standard options to pay for what the government spends are either raising taxes or let the deficit grow and hope that tax revenue will also grow without the need to raise taxes.”
Or to decrease taxes to the makers to stimulate the economy, encourage takers to become makers (which increases the amount of taxes collected, decreases the amount of taxes spent on takers, reduces the amount spent on crime and shrinks the overall deficit). But again, of course the liberals wouldn’t let that happen as the former takers will start voting Republican.February 6, 2023 3:38 pm at 3:38 pm #2162975
“Do you recall a former President named Barak Hussein Obama? He did exactly that. It may not have been in income tax or sales tax but it was a forced tax on the hard working makers to pay the premiums for the lazy takers and yes, my salary remained relatively the same but my health insurance costs skyrocketed by around $10,000 a year.”
This is not true
The increase in tax was $695 that is ti . And it ONLY applied if you dindnt have health insurance .
“Once you don’t get insurance through your employer you’re not in that same group anymore.”
right , a complelty insane system. so if I change jobs I may need a new doctor. If my employer gets a better deal I and chanegs companies I may need a new doctor it is crazy.
what on Earth does my insirance have to do with my employer
“I’ll mention again what I’ve been writing all along. The government should be involved in health care … Not for lazy people who want society to do everything for them.”
Yes youve said that the problem is it isnt the just the “lazy” who get cancer . Read the recent Propublica story “UnitedHealthcare Tried to Deny Coverage to a Chronically Ill Patient. He Fought Back, Exposing the Insurer’s Inner Workings.” The fellow involved doesnt sound lazy.
“Again, this will not work until people start taking responsibility for themselves and the ratio of avoidable medical expenses to unavoidable expenses gets flipped.”
and Again if it got you on board, Id support increased oversight on halthier diet/excerices increased regulations on smoking etcFebruary 6, 2023 3:38 pm at 3:38 pm #2162977
“but my health insurance costs skyrocketed by around $10,000 a year.”
Yes health insurance companies are greedy. I hate them too. Not sure why you blame that on Obama.
If you dont mind my asking what was the change in benefits? Why dd it go up so much?February 6, 2023 5:27 pm at 5:27 pm #2163067
“This is not true
The increase in tax was $695 that is ti . And it ONLY applied if you dindnt have health insurance .”
Again- you’re purposely totally missing the point. I specifically wrote that it wasn’t an “income tax or sales tax but it was a forced tax on the hard working makers to pay the premiums for the lazy takers”. My portion of the monthly premiums went up by around $200 and my employers portion went up by $200 as well. The annual deductable went from $250 to $7,500. Again- this was not a typical tax per se but an extra expense forced on me by the ACA through former President Obama.
“right , a complelty insane system. so if I change jobs I may need a new doctor. If my employer gets a better deal I and chanegs companies I may need a new doctor it is crazy.”
Complain to your employer if they keep switching insurers or complain to your doctor if he / she isn’t in enough networks. Insurers attempt to keep premiums down by agressively negotiating with providers who want to be in network. If your provider is too greedy to agree to the insurers terms you can’t blame the insurer.
“what on Earth does my insirance have to do with my employer”
As I explained earler- the fact that you can report to work makes you appear healthier than the general population and makes the premiums cheaper. If you’d rather pay more to have a consistent policy that doesn’t change from year to year go ahead a buy one on your own. The percentage that the premiums increase from year to year will be significantly higher.
“Yes youve said that the problem is it isnt the just the “lazy” who get cancer .”
I’m not sure what you meant to write over here. But again, too much of health care costs in the US are avoidable if people were to ask responsibly. Some costs are unavoidable and the government should be there if the patient was someone who for reasons beyond their control couldn’t get adequate coverage.
“and Again if it got you on board, Id support increased oversight on halthier diet/excerices increased regulations on smoking etc”
Yes, that would get me on board.
“Yes health insurance companies are greedy. I hate them too.”
Health insurance companies are there to make a profit just like any other company. Their business model is to take payments to assume a risk. Why do you consider them any more greedy that any other company that wants to make a profit?
“Not sure why you blame that on Obama.”
I don’t blame Former President Obama for insurance companies wanting to make a profit- I blame him for forcing me and tens of millions of other hardworking people to pick up the slack for those who choose not to work.
“If you dont mind my asking what was the change in benefits? Why dd it go up so much?”
Any changes in the benefits were negligible. The extra premium was to cover the premiums of those who aren’t going to be paying the premiums on their own. A deductible (and copayment) is to discourage people from calling an ambualnce to be rushed to the emergency room for a paper cut. The skyrocketing deductibles were to cover those who don’t have a deductible (or copayment) and will be calling an ambulance to be rushed to the emergency room for a paper cut. (As it’ll be cheaper for them than buying a Band-Aid from CVS.)February 6, 2023 5:27 pm at 5:27 pm #2163076
Yes. health insurance companies are greedy.
On this I am in complete agreement with Ubiquitin. The insurance companies are part of our capitalistic system. There is nothing stopping them from raising premiums and lowering coverage. All this was happening before Obama. Individual Americans have no recourse.
The insurance company lobby will destroy all dissent.February 7, 2023 1:17 am at 1:17 am #2163125
As I’ve mentioned before and I’ll mention again- insurance companies are in the business of collecting premiums to assume risk. The higher the risk the more premiums they charge.
Insurance companies lost hundreds of millions of Dollars due to the ACA and many companies were put out of business causing providers and their insureds to lose additional hundreds of millions of Dollars.
Why do you consider insurance companies any more greedy than any other corporation that’s trying to make a profit (e.g. a car dealership, a cruise line, and an amusement park…)
“There is nothing stopping them from raising premiums and lowering coverage.”
That’s another one of your lies! Insurance companies have to file proposed rates hikes with the state, justify them and wait until they get approved. Check out the CMS website for more information.
“All this was happening before Obama.”
That’s true- he didn’t invent the freeloaders, he just came along and exasperated the problem exponentially.
“Individual Americans have no recourse.”
That’s another lie! Just because you don’t want to do something doesn’t mean that you can’t. Individual Americans can go ahead and vote Republican.February 7, 2023 1:26 am at 1:26 am #2163160
“Again- you’re purposely totally missing the point.”
no, I’m mising YOUR point. yo uare trying to make this about Obamacare and your specific circumstance (not that I blame you)
reread my comments, I am not discussing Obamacare.
“Complain to your employer if they keep switching insurers or complain to your doctor if he / she isn’t in enough networks…”
I did but they don’t care. and there is not much I cna do about it other than quit. and a system where you have to quit to keep your doctor is even crzier than finding a new doctor in my opinion.
“Yes, that would get me on board.”
Great We agree then!
Medicare for all!!! HuzzahFebruary 7, 2023 8:02 am at 8:02 am #2163203
jackk > The insurance companies are part of our capitalistic system. There is nothing stopping them from raising premiums and lowering coverage. All this was happening before Obama. Individual Americans have no recourse. The insurance company lobby will destroy all dissent.
jackk, do you have your degree from Havana University? Competition is the “thing” that typically stops suppliers from raising prices. Econ 101. It is harder in some industries than others, but it works better if you increase fair competition by providing markets (midrash says this is what Yaakov did, forgot exact citation). Excessive regulation and government intervention limits competition and allows near-monopolies to raise prices indeed. This way, it seems that the progressives are sneaking in their market-destroying policies in order to then tell people – see, the markets do not work. I think freedom, like education, are expensive – but cheaper than slavery/ignorance.February 7, 2023 9:24 am at 9:24 am #2163294
“Competition is the “thing” that typically stops suppliers from raising prices. Econ 101.”
Problem is after Econ 101 you need to take more advanced courses.
Many basic tenets of Econ 101 do not apply to healthcare.
Take the most basic tenet, that of supply and demand . In Econ 101 you are taught if strawberries are too expensive then people will stop eating strawberries and buy blueberries forcing the price of Strawberries to come down.
If stents become expensive its not like the demand for them (ie Heart attacks) will go down. Furthermore if someone is having a heart attack they can’t exactly shop around for the cheapest care.
Even if it ISN’t an emergency shopping around is almost impossible,. This experiment has been done. One of the most frequent reasons people go to a hospital is for childbirth. OF course there are occasionally complications, but generlaly the stay is pretty routine and predictable. Furthermore you have a 9 month headstart to plan where to give birth. You would think finding he cheapest place is straightforward. Yet it is near impossible. There was an attempt to chaneg this with the Hospital Price Transparency Law signed by President Trump, but it is still near impossible to find this information.
Furthermore there is a Knowledge discrepancy between you and the healthcare system, underming basic economic principals (which assume a level playing field). Yo ucan easily dewtermine the difference between strawberries and blueberries. IT is much harder to determine the difference between getting a few stents vs bypass surgeryFebruary 7, 2023 12:22 pm at 12:22 pm #2163364
“no, I’m mising YOUR point. yo uare trying to make this about Obamacare and your specific circumstance (not that I blame you)
reread my comments, I am not discussing Obamacare.”
My point was specifically regarding the catastrophic consequences on hard working families caused by the ACA and I explicitly mentioned that.
If you were referring to a different point can I respectfully suggest that you mention that instead of saying that something I wrote wasn’t true? It disturbs the peaceful flow of this discussion.
“I did but they don’t care. and there is not much I cna do about it other than quit. and a system where you have to quit to keep your doctor is even crzier than finding a new doctor in my opinion.”
I feel bad for you, it’s definitely not a good situation, but it seems like this issue is caused by your employer and providers, not the insurance companies. When my employer switched insurers the providers were in both networks so I’m wondering what’s going on as it seems like the premiums you and your employer are paying are much higher than the premiums paid by me and my employer (I.e. the networks should be around as good)? Do you work for a Frum place? Frum employers tend to have higher premiums.
The only doctors I recall switching from where two that weren’t honest (one billed me for a sick visit by my annual physical even though I felt great and one diagnosed me with a disease I didn’t have).
“Great We agree then!
Medicare for all!!! Huzzah”
Whoa- not so fast. It’ll take generations to implement. First we need to get people to take responsibility for themselves. A major part of that is getting rid of the culture embedded into the youngest of our citizens that their health isn’t their problem. Keep in mind that there’s a major political party paying people to be takers and vote for them. Even if the makers are still a majority the takers are reproducing at a much faster rate.February 7, 2023 4:37 pm at 4:37 pm #2163424
“My point was specifically regarding the catastrophic consequences on hard working families caused by the ACA and I explicitly mentioned that.”
Yes I know. I understand that is your point.
“If you were referring to a different point can I respectfully suggest that you mention that ”
Sure! in one of my first comments to you
here it is:
“To be clear I’m not arguing. I think reasonable people can disagree. Your examples though are designed to bias and not really to inform.
If you maintain that it isn’t the Government’s job to get involved whether you worked out and saved (Mr A.) or didn’t (Mr. B) I understand that. I disagree (as to most people Even Trump running as a Republican promised to provide “the best healthcare plan” and Medicare is wildly popular )
But again I think people can disagree as to the role of government…”
I am not talking about ACA specifically
rather about general role of govt.
“I feel bad for you, it’s definitely not a good situation, but it seems like this issue is caused by your employer and providers,”
Yep, not just me thats the way it is in this country. My employer chooses my plan #Freedom! And I guess I have high premiums, no its not a frum place. Is there anything I can do about it. Again, not really.February 7, 2023 9:37 pm at 9:37 pm #2163597
uniq, I agree re: market distortion in healthcare, and I also mentioned transparency regulations by Trump. The answer to that is improving the markets as much as possible – publishing prices, enabling competition.
I did not study healthcare, but I studied defense industry under Reagan – who introduced competition by partitioning weapon development into R&D and production, and bidding them separately, with government fully acquiring R&D results of the bidder after Phase 1 and making them available to all competing companies. During Phase 2, several companies get part of production, and deciding on one contractor after a couple of years of competition.February 8, 2023 9:14 pm at 9:14 pm #2164050
“Sure! in one of my first comments to you
here it is:”
I posted a point that I was trying to make which was 100% true and you said that it wasn’t true. I asked if you could respectfully mention that you had a different point in mind instead of accusing me of lying. You left out the second half of my sentence in your response. (And no, an earlier post of yours cannot constitute a response to a later post of mine.)
Anyway- from my point of view this thread has run its course- I answered a number of questions other posters had but they still want to point the blame in the wrong place. I don’t think there’s anything else I can add.
I explained why actuarially it’s not possible to have reasonable premiums and coverage for dental care but people still think that insurance companies are selfish capitalists.
I mentioned that the ACA mathematically had a 0% chance of working as designed (it’s more complicated than dental care but I was willing to discuss it if anyone had any questions) but posters still consider health insurers to be greedy corporations.
The issues that you brought up, having to find new doctors every time your employer switches insurers, is more of a problem with your employer not keeping the same plan and your providers not being in consistent networks than with health insurers trying to be stingy. Sure, it’s annoying and I sympathize with you but you need to put the blame where it belongs.
I didn’t read the story you mentioned but I’ll agree with you that there can be some bad apples out there just like there is in any industry, that doesn’t mean that the insurance industry is rotten to the core.
As far as insurance companies raising rates whenever they want to make the greedy executives even richer- that’s a lie. As I mentioned before- insurers have to file a rate increase with the state before they can raise the rates and the state usually doesn’t allow the full increase applied for. This is on the CMS website.
Also, on the CMS website you can read about the MLR- Medical Loss Ratio. Depending on the plan 80% to 85% of premiums have to go to medical claims, the other 15% to 20% can go to marketing, salaries, benefits, real estate, bonuses… If the claims ratio doesn’t reach the threshold the insurer needs to return the excess to the policy holders- they cannot pocket it.
So, in short- NO, insurers cannot raise premiums on their whim to enrich themselves.February 9, 2023 9:23 am at 9:23 am #2164148
The only point I said wasn’t true was this
““no politiican would dream of raising taxes that much (for the average worker who didnt get a 10 fold increase in salary .”
Do you recall a former President named Barak Hussein Obama? He did exactly that…”
That wasn’t true. He didnt Do “EXACTLY THAT”
As you acknowledged in your post. I didnt say you were a liar, becasue you knew what you were saying, I would characterize it as misleading more than lying. I pointed out that what you were saying was “not true” it wasnt and isnt
” from my point of view this thread has run its course”
Yep along time ago
“I didn’t read the story you mentioned but I’ll agree with you that there can be some bad apples out there just like there is in any industry, that doesn’t mean that the insurance industry is rotten to the core”
you should read it.
I deal with insurance companies multiple times weekly (more often as a provider) . rotten to the core is an understatementFebruary 9, 2023 9:36 am at 9:36 am #2164190
I’d like to apologize for accusing you of lying I did not mean to.
allow me to explain what I meant by backtracking.
With a lot of these “hot button” issues I think the main neukdas hamachlokes gets ignored in favor of more emotinal “fluff” points.
A great example of this is abortion. People get up in extreme cases of incest rape life in danger etc etc. The MAIN question is is fetus a life. Once that is settled most other points fall into place . Yet that point is often ignored, and peopel tend to jump to the extreme cases to make their point.
wit hhealthcare the MAIN question in my opinion is what is the government’s role. Once that is settled we can discusss ways to make sure noone takes advantage. but the startign point is there. T ostart with a n extrem example of forcing Mr A to pay for Mr B is silly, Partly becasue that isnt a suggestion anyone is making and because it avoids the main question.
THAT was my point. (I get that you were intentionally starting with an extreme situation and planning to move it towards your specific situation.
I didn’t want to leave yo uhanging so I answered your question that no MR A should not be forced to pay for MR B . you then asked abotu a thusand MR A’s paying for a Thousand Mr B’s
To which I replied (using my starting point) that I think EVERYBODY should pay for EVERYBODY. Even if it means raising taxes. Though a 10,000 tax increase was never going to happen.
You said it did happen. But this was misleading. I did not call you a liar, but when yo usaid he did “exactly that” this was a mischaracterization The government under Obamacare DID NOT take over healthcare. They did not adopt what I think they should , a “Medicare for all plan” I have no interest in defending Obamacare. I realize that you were caught up on your specific point (which was about Mr. A and B) , and perhaps I was not clear. for that I apologize.
Before going though, please do read the stroy “UnitedHealthcare Tried to Deny Coverage to a Chronically Ill Patient. He Fought Back, Exposing the Insurer’s Inner Workings”
Its not just that it highlights “a few bad apples” it exposes as the title suggests the inner workings of one of the largest healthinsurance companies. Comlete with audio clips, depostions of the Medical directors who are in charge of denieg care (in this case for one, but generally for hundreds a week!!!)February 10, 2023 5:05 pm at 5:05 pm #2164754
I read the article (it’s long) and I was shaking and fuming. I’ll get to that later on.
“The only point I said wasn’t true was this”
Can we hit the reset button on this? I was having a pleasant discussion with you where, although we didn’t agree on everything, we discussed things peacefully and respectfully. What I meant to say what that there possibly could have been a better choice of words. You probably didn’t mean any harm but comments like that can potentially be perceived as a personal attack and disturb the flow of the conversation.
Most of the complaints against healthcare were, in my opinion, unfairly pointed at insurance companies. As I mentioned earlier, they cannot raise premiums at their whim and 80% or 85% of premiums must go to providers, any additional premiums collected are returned.
As far as the government providing free health care and dental care- I think theoretically a government should but given the culture of the citizens here we’re way too far away from that becoming a reality. (The money has to come from somewhere and people need to take more responsibility for their health. Until that happens any attempt will implode pretty fast.)
I feel bad for you for the trouble you’re going through with health insurers- I normally don’t have those kinds of stories. The issues I’ve had normally begin with a claim being denied due to a provider putting an incorrect diagnosis code or procedure code (they’re extremely confusing) and then the insurance company not paying until the error is corrected. I then get the run around from the provider who wants to get paid (their billing department says that they can’t change what the doctor wrote) and the doctor who doesn’t have time to call back or review / correct the records. These could take months to resolve and even get sent to collection agencies (I know it’s frustrating) but ultimately, it’s not the insurer at fault.
As far as the story you mentioned is concerned- I hope that’s the exception and not the norm. I found it sickening that they were willing to save money by taking a business risk at the expense of a different human’s quality of life. Equally as sickening was the immature giggling you can hear in their phone conversation when they came up with the excuse to discontinue his drug coverage. (Even if they had a valid reason to deny the claim- any human that can laugh at saving money at the expense of another human has no business being making any health decision for anyone else.)
If this unfortunately does go on on a regular basis then I take back what I wrote earlier and agree that health insurers share a larger percentage of blame in this mess than I earlier attributed to them.
Have a Gut ShabbosFebruary 11, 2023 8:43 pm at 8:43 pm #2164997CTLAWYERParticipant
I question your statement that the bill of healthcare expenses could be avoided if people took care of themselves from a young age.
Mrs. CTL suffered and died as the result of a congenital birth defect that did not make itself known until she was 60 years old.
I and each of my siblings and parents and in-laws had cataract surgeries Post age 65. Nothing we could have done a young age to prevent this.
I had Carpal Tunnel surgery last year, again nothing done as a youth could prevent it. Genetic diseases can not be prevented and costs avoided by lifestyle choices.
Diet and exercise can only do so much
Mrs. CTL’s medical costs exceeded $3,000,000
I am far from poor but could not have afforded this without insurance. Prior to age 65 she was on a policy bought through the Connecticut Health Care Exchange (ACA) at a very reasonable rate. Prior to ACA her policy from the same carrier had a lifetime cap of $1,000,000. Those caps went out the window when ACA became law, as did prior existing conditions as a disqualifying factor. We had a Medicare Advantage Plan from the same carrier after age 65.
One thing I discovered about choosing a plan is that you should choose the HMO option over the PPO option if your doctors abc hospitals are in the plan (every one of ours was). In an HMO plan, if a participating provider performs and bills for a service that is denied by the carrier, the insured is not liable for the bill. I have seen this notation on more than $100,000 in billings on our EOBs in the past two years.
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