Derech HaLimud of the Vilna Gaon
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Tagged: Gaon of Vilna, Mishnah, Talmud, Tanach, Vilna Gaon, Yonasan Rosenblum
- This topic has 20 replies, 18 voices, and was last updated 2 months, 1 week ago by n0mesorah.
December 22, 2022 1:11 pm at 1:11 pm #2150600SQUARE_ROOTParticipant
The Vilna Gaon taught:
“The Gaon taught that a Jew should learn all of Tanach and the entire Mishnah before studying Talmud.”
SOURCE: The Life and Teachings of Rabbi Eliyahu the Gaon of Vilna
(chapter 13, page 144) by Betzalel Landau, translated by Yonasan Rosenblum,
year 1994, Mesorah Publications, Brooklyn.December 22, 2022 2:05 pm at 2:05 pm #2150932Reb EliezerParticipant
Currently, we would never get to the Talmud. I would say we should learn the Mishnah, Talmud and the halachas on it as Rav Jonasan Steif ztz’l in his sefer Chadashim Gam Yeshanim teaches us.December 22, 2022 2:05 pm at 2:05 pm #2150929koltov7Participant
Did the vilan goan say anything about vacaitons?December 22, 2022 2:05 pm at 2:05 pm #2150925Get-r-dunParticipant
That may be good for gedolim like him he probably finished all that before he was six, but for simple people like meI guess I’d be 90 years old before I opened up a gemaraDecember 22, 2022 2:05 pm at 2:05 pm #2150926Get-r-dunParticipant
That may be good for gedolim like him he probably finished all that before he was six, but for simple people like meI guess I’d be 90 years old before I opened up a gemaraDecember 22, 2022 2:05 pm at 2:05 pm #2150927
The Mishna in Avos said this 1500 years earlier. What’s the Chiddush. We, as a generation, are incompetent in Mikra and the basics. It would be like taking a 6 year old child and teaching him algebra and saying “arithmetic is a waste of time”.December 22, 2022 2:05 pm at 2:05 pm #2150947Ari KnoblerParticipant
Of course. The Mahara”l of Prague and many other Torah giants throughout the generations also held of the same teaching model. The source is Avot 5:21 where Yehuda ben Tema says:
“At five years of age the study of Mikra;
“At ten the study of Mishna;
“At thirteen subject to the mitzvot;
“At fifteen the study of Talmud…”December 22, 2022 6:26 pm at 6:26 pm #2150989
So in this case apparently mesorah doesn’t countDecember 22, 2022 10:11 pm at 10:11 pm #2151046amiricanyeshivishParticipant
No just the opposite
We have mesorah for the last 100 plus years not to follow the mishna in Avos for our generationsDecember 22, 2022 10:11 pm at 10:11 pm #2151024
Anon, our mesorah is from achronim who say that our level of learning is different in our time. Reading mishnayos doesn’t constitute a mesorah. A mesorah is handed down. Who handed down to anyone today to follow the pashtus of that mishnah?
Rav yisroel salanter writes that everything went down one level; our mishnah is like their mikra, our gemara is like their mishnah, etc..
It’s not for nothing that all the yeshivos follow pretty much the same sederDecember 24, 2022 7:11 pm at 7:11 pm #2151142
It’s amazing how excuses are found to justify positions. Minhagim and mesora are sacred, except of course for when the Chassidim discarded centuries of minhagim, mesora and nusach.December 25, 2022 4:11 am at 4:11 am #2151254BaltimoreMavenParticipant
The Vilna Gaon had many different minhogim. As did the Arizal. Why blame Chassidim?December 25, 2022 4:12 am at 4:12 am #2151267fghijParticipant
“That may be good for gedolim like him he probably finished all that before he was six, but for simple people like meI guess I’d be 90 years old before I opened up a gemara” – Get-r-dun –
Just go to the little kids in Aderet Eliyahu in Yerushalayim and see for yourself that children in 7th Grade know Tanach and Mishnah by heart. They open the Gemarah in 8th Grade. But my little boys know more Torah than the Brisker Yeshiva Boys that come to my house.
There are other Chadarim that learn Torah Shel Bal Peh like Chemdas HaTorah in Lakewood.
Given that it’s not mainstream. But it exists.December 25, 2022 4:13 am at 4:13 am #2151268HaLeiViParticipant
That’s weird. Where do Chasidim come into this?December 25, 2022 10:37 am at 10:37 am #2151330motchah11Participant
@ fghij : I don’t understand. what derech halimud do your boys learn and what derech halimud do the Brisker Yeshiva boys learn?December 25, 2022 10:37 am at 10:37 am #2151329motchah11Participant
They stopped teaching Tanach to children around the time of the Reformers/Enlightenment, because 1) it is too confusing and misleading for children, and 2) the Reformers pushed the study of Didduk and Tanach over Torah Sh’baal Peh.December 25, 2022 10:37 am at 10:37 am #2151298
The chassidim were used simply as an example, because it was a large scale example of discarding of minhagim, mesora and nusach.
The concept of minhag and mesora was more applicable in 1700″s and prior. People rarely left the village they were born in and the cohesiveness promoted the maintenance of the minhagim and mesora. However , the rise of chassidus, the haskala, massive pogroms and emigration have led to mixing of populations and the difficulty of most people have in identifying their mesora and minhagimDecember 25, 2022 4:36 pm at 4:36 pm #2151402MosheBinyominParticipant
The Gaon upended plenty of minhagim. As did the Chofetz Chaim. Nowadays litvaks hardly have any minhagim, chasidim are the ones who stand by their minhagim. Why the hatred for chasidim?December 26, 2022 1:35 pm at 1:35 pm #2151477Reb EliezerParticipant
מנהג ישראל תןרה הוא – ר’ת מית-ה, We know from the Chasam Sofer that מנהג in reverse is גהנם and החדש אסור מן התורה בכל מקום ובכל זמן.December 29, 2022 11:06 am at 11:06 am #2152238
חדש מן התורה ONLY means one thing, which is kemach yoshon. Don’t ever take it out of context. Just because the C’S came up with a clever interpretation does not make it halacha. If it were then we’d not allow IVF, for example. The point of Halacha IS to deal with the new. Otherwise why do I need rabbis? Just to regurgitate what I could’ve been looked up myself? And if you think there’s no Chodosh, you’re dreaming. Yiddishkeit is constantly expanding. Yes, same framework, but expanding.December 29, 2022 4:35 pm at 4:35 pm #2152342
So we have the heiligeh chasam sofer, and we have an anonymous anti -religious troll online.
Which should we follow?December 29, 2022 7:20 pm at 7:20 pm #2152419Always_Ask_QuestionsParticipant
YO has benefit over CS of living after 200 years of chadashDecember 30, 2022 3:14 pm at 3:14 pm #2152646
We should follow a newly yeshivish guy living in a basement in Passaic wasting his time on YWN.December 31, 2022 10:49 pm at 10:49 pm #2152796
Yo – we should follow the Chasam sofer over anyone on here.
What makes you think I’m in Passaic of all places? And a basement? Maybe i live in my car for all you know.
Also, I wouldn’t call 20 years in the Yeshiva world “new.”January 2, 2023 1:41 pm at 1:41 pm #2153130
Is this teaching from the Goan legit? It doesn’t look like it was done in practice by any of his followers until a century later.January 2, 2023 3:53 pm at 3:53 pm #2153195
I disagree that this system will help us with the basics.January 2, 2023 11:59 pm at 11:59 pm #2153486
Punkt fakert! All the leading fighters of the Reform Movement give not learning TaNaCH as a factor in what caused European Jews to look outside Judaism in the first place. The only gemara method of education goes back seven centuries!January 2, 2023 11:59 pm at 11:59 pm #2153485
Okay. But where do you see that your boys will end up? Do they become mainstream?January 4, 2023 6:17 pm at 6:17 pm #2154052efshar azoiParticipant
My Rebbe told me that he holds like reb Meir Simcha bnogea yashan. He is only makpid on yashan when he (my American rebbe) is in dvinsk!
Remember the advice of mark twain..”never let schooling interfere with your education”..
Pick up a Nach with a good translation, read 2 perakim a day, and finish every 11 months…
in a few years you will be a baki…see the book the one minute masmid for excellent ideas of review…January 4, 2023 11:47 pm at 11:47 pm #2154082
Efshar, reading tanach without meforshim will make you think that war is great, people were killed everyday, 80% of klal yisroel served avodah zara everyday, “king solomon” served idols in his advanced age, “king david” got a man killed to steal his wife after having relations with her, life is pointless, the jews didn’t know what sukkos was in the times of ezra…
Want a list of how twisted your head can be from “reading” translations?January 5, 2023 1:50 pm at 1:50 pm #2154291
That may be less twisted than the current way we read TaNaCH.January 5, 2023 6:40 pm at 6:40 pm #2154355JustPlsDontCauseChillulHashemParticipant
nomesorah: explain?January 5, 2023 6:40 pm at 6:40 pm #2154348efshar azoiParticipant
you are right. I forgot that i had already leaned Neviim rishonim with miforshim, I meant that for a ben Torah who learns Chazal, 2 perakim a day is a good chazara…January 9, 2023 3:47 pm at 3:47 pm #2155052
Some people go so far in ‘answer up Navi’ that they distort much, much more than the distortions that Avira mentioned.
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