Derech of Hasidic Learning

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  • #1922165
    matpalrishon
    Participant

    How does the style of learning in Hasidic yeshivos compare to the mainstream Litvish/Brisker derech and when compared to each respective community (Satmar vs Belz for example)?

    #1922175
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    We explain one thing in terms of another showing he goes leshitosa and the three rishonim, Rif, Rambam and the Rosh are emphasized as the Mechaber paskens according to the majority of them.

    #1922210
    Sam Klein
    Participant

    Reb Eliezer

    Is that the Litvish way of learning or the chassidish way they learn the way you commented?

    #1922281
    Benephraim
    Participant

    You can’t leave out Ger which was established by the Gaon and Baki, Reb Moshele Ruttenberg who brought the derech straight from Reb Meir Shapiro of Lublin. The Litvishe chakira is considered something the Litvakes do. As they say in Chabad, a Litvak is a Litvak. In Ungarin, they learned Noda Biyehuda and the Tumim etc.

    #1922290
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    The litwish way of learning is answering contradictions of Rambam through chilukim by differentiating through chakiros. Some seforim on chakiros as קובץ יסודות וחקירות and חקירות שמואל are available at hebrewbooks.org. The Shlah Hakadash and Orchas Tzadikim were questioning the use of this type of learning if it does not lead to halacha but sometimes it is important to differentiate between halachas as explained by the Chasam Sofer (Chulin,7) that the Rebbi, after the talmidim would compare two things, would say gleich or imgleich, similar or not.

    #1922312
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    By the Chasidim to derive the halacha, we must learn the Tur and Beis Yosef as referenced by the Ein Mishpat on the gemara followed by the SA and its commentaries e.g. Taz, Megan Avraham, Machtzis Hashekel, Sma Shach, Beis Shmuel and then the Rambam and its commentaries.

    #1922314
    BaltimoreMaven
    Participant

    Chassidim learn the exact same chumash with Rashi and Ohr Hachaim as everyone else. Exact same mishnayos with Bartenura. Same gemora Rashi Tosafos. Same Shulchan Aruch. Chassidim also have Shulchan Aruch HaRav and many different minhogim but 99 percent is identical. They keep Shabbos and Yuntiv.
    Mir and BMG many other yeshivas have numerous Chassidim.
    You will find huge Talmidei Chachomim in the Chassidishe community. Many have learned in Litvishe yeshivas as the Chassidishe yeshivas were not fully up and running after the War.
    Don’t forget that Meir Shapiro was a Tchortkover Chossid.
    Some Chassidus emphasize bekiyus over iyyun.

    #1922316
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    There is a small booklet called תנו כבוד לתורה from Rav Shimon Furst available at hebrewbooks.org, which questions the litwish learning about bekios. In Chasan Sofer, to remedy this, we had two sedorim, one in the morning following the litwish derech and the other in the afternoon where we would learn for bekios. So, chasidishe emphasize more bekios as sinai veoker horim, sinai adef whereas the litiishe the sharpness. The was the argument between the Beis Shamai, sharpness whereas the Beis Hilel, bekios. I once heard that this is the argument by Chanukah. The Beis Hilel required sharpness which improves with age, so we light going forward whereas the Beis Shamai required better memory which occurs in the youth, so they went backwards. Also, what are we celebrating? The hatzala, going forward or the mapala, going backwards as by Sukkas with the oxen. The Orchas Tzadikim above is in Shaar Hatorah starting with Veod.

    #1922335
    Benephraim
    Participant

    RE did you learn by Rav Tyrnauer?

    #1922351
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    No, I learned 1959-63 at Adas Yereim, Wien in Williamsburg and 1963-68 in Chasan Sofer, Mattersdorf, originially on the East Side then Borough Park, by Rav Simcha Bunim ztz’l and Rav Shmuel ztz’l who gave once a week a shiur. Rav Tirnauer ztl’z taught a younger class.

    #1922357
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    I learned together with Rav Menachem Fischer Shlita fom Monsey in Adas Yereim (Nachlas Yaakov) and Rav Noach Eisick Oehlbaum Shlita from Kew Garden Hills in Chasan Sofer. Look at his sefer Minchas Chen.

    #1922366
    Benephraim
    Participant

    So you learned by the Hudhauzer, Harav Leibovitch?

    #1922372
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    Yes, I once required to know in camp 10 blat gemora by heart with the lashon.

    #1922375
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    Rav Simcha Bunim tzl’l was a talmid of his brother in law Rav Paler ztz’l where he learned the litvishe way. In the Wiener we learned chasidish, no chakiros. We did make fun of it, where we questioned what sweetens the tea, the sugar or the mixing? The answer was the mixing and sugar was required to know how long to mix.

    #1922720
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    By the Chasidim Avodah brings to Torah whereas by the litvaks Torah brings to Avodah.

    #1922789
    OrechDin
    Participant

    For the record… THIS is the type of discussion I (and others) come to YWN and the Coffee Room to see. The Yeshiva World, not CNN vs. Fox vs. OAN vs. MSNBC. Shkoyach to the OP and those that contributed to this discussion. I learned a great deal. I hope to see more of this.

    #1922933
    Benephraim
    Participant

    Ok OD . Now the part about Musar and Chassidus. In Chabad it is Tanya from the AR. In Litvishe it is Mesilas Yesharim by Ramchal. In Torah Vadaas they learned Kuzari and Moreh Navuchim. What about you RE?

    #1922953
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    The Chasam Sofer said the day he did not learn Chovas Halvovas he was missing something.

    #1923012
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    I will demonstrate the derech halimud (learning methodology) of both litvish and chassidish methods.

    Litvish:

    There is a custom in our shul to relight Chanukah candles in the morning. This is based according to the Sheorim Metzuyonim Behalach on the Kitzur Shulchan Aruch on the Rambam Hilchas Temidin Umosafin (3,12) who says that in the mikdash when the light went out in the morning, they would clean it and then relight it which being part of the cleaning process, so we make a zecher lamikdash, remembering how it was done in the mikdash. The Rashba in his teshuvas argues on this. They would only relight it in the afternoon. The question is, sheraga betahara mai mehana, why light in the sunlight when it can not be seen? I think this question only applies if the reason for relighting in the morning is parsumei nisa, publicize the miracle. However, if the reason is zecher lamikdash, then the opposite is true. In the Mikdash the light was not used to be seen, vechi leorah hi tzarich?

    #1923027
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    Chasiddish:

    The gemora in Eruvin (6,2) says that whoever follows the chumras, stringent views of both the Beis Shamai and Beis Hillel,on him it says kesil bahoshach holech, the fool walks in darkness.
    The Ostrovtzer in Sefer Meir Einei Chachomim explains in a humorous fashion this gemora. The Beis Shamai forbids using kelim on shabbos as their view is shevisas kelim, the dishes and utensils, must also rest on shabbos. Asks the gemora Shabbos (18,2) according to them, how can we light shabbos candles? Answers the gemora that the lighter must give up ownership (mafker) of the canderlabra.
    There is another argument if hefkar must be complete both for the poor and the rich. The Beis Shamai says that it only needs to be for the poor, so their view is consistent and we can be mafker the canderlabra. However, if we go by the Beis Hilel by hefkar and the Beis Shamai by shvisas kelim, he/she will not be able to be mafker because by lighting acquires some ownership but we need to be mafker completely, so the fool will stay in darkness.

    #1923030
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    Another litvish denonstration.

    The difference between aichus (quality) and kamus (quantity). Rav Chaim asks the question, how did they light in the mikdash with the oil added to menorah that burned after the pitcher was consumed being shemen shel nes, oil acquired through a miracle, that we celebrate Chanukah for? He answers that no new oil was added (quantity) but the same oil (quality) burned longer.

    #1923067
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    Another chasiddic demonstation:

    The gemora in Shabbos tells the story of a min (atheist) saw Rava being so involved in his learning that he was pressing his foot on his hand and blood was gushing from it. So told Rava that you are a hurried nation as you preceded at Kabolas Hatorah naaseh (to do) before nishma (to hear). What is the connection? The Kol Aryeh sees as a discussion why Avraham Avinu did not circumcize himself until commanded. Maybe he did not want to harm yourself but you Rava belief that you are allowed to harm yourself. Maybe he waited to be commanded which is greater than not commanded but then
    why they preceeded naasey before nishma. So Rava answered him that we trust Hashem like a father who loves us and will not ask us to do something we are unable to do.

    #1923075
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    Another chasiddic illustration:

    The Chasam Sofer in Nedorim 81 where it says that the chorbun came because shlo borchu batorah techilah, did not say birchas haTorah first, interprets it that they praised the secular knowledge before the Torah knowledge.

    #1923077
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    Should be above, not want to harm himself.

    #1923093
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    Another litvish illustration:

    Matzah, is called lechem oni. Is this a din in sipur yetzius mitzraim (telling the story of yetzias mitzraim) or matzah? If it is a din in matzah, then we are not yotzei if the matzah is not left open on the table but otherwise not every matzah must be on the table just that we should tell it on any matzah.

    #1923125
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    Another Chasiddish Derech:

    The Chasam Sofer on Shabbos 24 where the mishna says not to burn kodoshim on yom tov explains how the mishna can be interpreted according to the smart woman, the wife of the Sma. She holds that by yom tov lighting, the brocho should be said first before lighing and to light early. He explains that the two views of her are related leshitosa, once a brocho is said first it is yom tov and therefore even lighting early would be a question of burning kodoshim.

    #1923128
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    Another litvish learning:

    From the Griz son of Rav Chaim, who questions what is the meaning of shomeah keoneh? If it means that the listener is speaking then where is his megilla and loud voice, so it must be that the one listening is speaking with the speaker’s voice who has a megilla and speaks in a loud voice. A kohen who wants to be yotzei duchenen from another kohen must still raise his hand as that is physical mitzva lieing on each kohen personally which does not transfer.

    #1923208
    rational
    Participant

    Someone here is confusing “Litvish learning” with the Brisker method. There is no such animal as “litvish” learning. There is pilpul, L’shitasoi, Telz, Brisk, Higayon, and others. Each has their unique qualities. To the surprise of many, Lithuanians studied Torah before Lithuanian yshivas came into existence, and they also had a derech limud. I don’t know what the “chassidishe” method is, but I assume it is not pan-chassidish. Just look at what recently happened to the Gerrer Chassidim in Israel because of a difference of opinion in derech halimud.

    #1923274
    Benephraim
    Participant

    Ok. Now that you have it clear, I hope , can anyone in the CR reminisce for a moment about the Derech Halmiud of the great Gaon Reb Aharon Kotler whose yahrzeit just came by. While you RE mention Harav Fuerst’s sefer and Rav Keshet in Yesodei Hachakira etc. But what about Harav Zevin ? Many thanks

    #1923307
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    Sometimes a statement can also be interpreted baderech halotza, a joke. It says על שלשה דברים העולם עומד the world stands on 3 pillars. The Yalkut Hagershuni interprets this, that people stand up, have no patients, when it comes to these 3 things. Torah, people want to leave a drasha being too long, Avoda, davenen lasting long, Gemilas Chasodim, an Appeal. ברוך שבחר בהם ובמשנתם praised is the one who chooses them and their learning. People want to listen to the Torah of talmid chachamim but marrying them, were parnasa is hard, is thought twice and being held back.

    #1923324
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    A view can also be interpreted for mussar. The Yalkut Hagershuni interprets the view of Rav Yehudah מין בשאינה מינה בטל בששים, one kind mixed with a different kind is nullified by a multiple of sixty, מין במינה אפילו באלף לא בטל, but one kind with same kind (having the same name, RMA, having the same taste, Shach) mixed with a multiple of a thousand cannot be nullified. A min (one who violates the Torah), if done lateovan, from desire, at sixty, the desire ceases and will stop, but if done lehachis, to anger, irritate, even he lives a thousand years, wil not stop.

    #1923339
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    There is an interpretation of mussar:

    כל הפוסל במומו פוסל – whoever faults someone, faults him with his own faults.
    אין אדם רואה את נגעי עצמו – one does not recognize his own faults
    שלך אי אתה רואה אבל אתה רואה של אחרים ושל גבוה – you don’t recognize your own faults but you recognize the faults of others and specially the faults of the holy. When someone degrades others, thinks he becomes greater.

    #1923355
    Benephraim
    Participant

    The Derech Halimud using the double entendre can not be fairly compared to a logical inference based on lomdus and halacha. Rebbeim in Yeshivas usually maintain the achrayus of loyalty to the text when they decide pshat and Halacha. The proof is that no Rishonim say such things. So it is not part of our Mesorah. Sorry RE.

    #1923366
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    The Arizal said on the hesped of Remak כי יהי-ה באיש חטא משפט מות ותלית על עץ when some one sins deserving death, hang them first on the tree. He translated it, If a person lacks judgement of death (so he didn’t deserve to die) apply the reason for the eitz hadaas.
    He also said ‘כל מעשר בקר וצאן כל אשר יעבר תחת השבט העשירי יהי -ה קודש לה he applied to the ten martyrs each died representing his shevat. Hashem was included in selling of Yosef, so Rav Akiva coming from gerim was in place of Hashem. Benephraim, don’t dismiss this, the rishonim had no reason to do this, they knew enough to find a pasuk directly related. It might be included in remez as gematrias are. We find remozim on halacha. A nazir thirty days is a gematria יהי-ה.

    • This reply was modified 1 month, 4 weeks ago by Reb Eliezer.
    • This reply was modified 1 month, 4 weeks ago by Reb Eliezer.
    #1923389
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    Beephraim, you should be sorry but not to me but gedalim using this technique, The Arizal, Binah Leitim, Rav Nasan Adler ztz’l, Chasam Sofer etc.

    #1923412
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    The Bnei Yisoschor says that lo motzo monoach, as Monoach was an am haaretz, so no am haaretz was found. Everyone knew whoever hurts the Bnei Yisroel will be elevated.

    #1923440
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    There was a chidud for a Bar Mitzva אור לארבעה עשר בודקין את החמץ לאור הנר after thirteen towards fourteen, a Bar Mitzvah boy must watch out against the yetzer hara by monitoring his behavior.

    #1923589
    Lemayseh
    Participant

    rational: Well said.

    The Vilna Gaon was a Litvak who learned Torah before R. Chaim Brisker, and before the Beis Halevi too. And he was able to become a גדול שבגדולים without them somehow. Can you imagine that?

    Was Rav Moshe Feinstein a Brisker? Was Rav Henkin a Brisker?

    Brisk is a city, not מדינת ליטא overall. The whole idea that some people have that every Litvak is or must be some type of Brisker clone is absurd and offensive.

    #1923645
    rational
    Participant

    Lemayshe: well said.
    In addition to Reb Moishe zt”l and Rav Aharon Kotler, here’s a short list of well known (sic) Rabbonim who were not enamored by the Brisker derech:
    Rav Yankev Kaminetsky
    The Chazon Ish ( a well-known adversary to the Brisker method)
    The Ridbaz (called it Alchemy)
    Reb Chaim Ozer
    Reb Leizer Gordon
    Reb Shimon Shkop
    Rav Elchonon Wasserman
    Quite an impressive list, no? It can go on and on.

    Among litvish yeshivas , and due to sociological reasons only, the Brisker method has effectively monopolized the study of Shas and Rishonim, and has also changed practical halachah as well. Times will eventually change, life is a ferris wheel.

    #1923646
    rational
    Participant

    To the learned Reb Eliezer,
    I respectfully disagree with your analysis of the The Chasam Sofer’s use of double entendre. The Chasam Sofer was not a Chossid, to imply this is highly misleading. His brilliant and clever double entendres were used as an intellectual exercise to drive home a point. They were not used to pasken halachah on their own without clear proofs from Shas and Rishonim.

    #1923657
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    rational, that is why I mistakenly thought that this is also the litvish derech halimud.

    #1923668
    Benephraim
    Participant

    Hi everybody. I think that it may be suggested that there are 2 types of Brisk. Saying over Tayre from Reb Chaim and his Talmidim , is the first type. Then there is the application of the Derech to answer new issues . It is well known that the Satmar Rov ( vayoel Moshe) was chalishing to hear the Torah of the Brisker that were heard from the Tatteh in the name of the Zaydeh. I will explain why if anyone wants to know.

    #1923710
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    A cute double entendre I heard:

    How שלוחו של אדם כמותו – a messenger of person is like himself. How is it that Adam Harishon did not die right away? One answer is 1000 years of Hashem is like a day. Another by being chased out of the Gan Eden is like dying.

    #1923744
    Benephraim
    Participant

    So then why didn’t the Gemara list it among the 4 that are considered like meysim. Very nice Toyreh . RE you are a repository of the Oilomos Shecharvu. Keep up your good writings. Kesiva Vechasima Tovah a gantz yohr. BTW did you know Rav Chaim Shpitzer ,the Viener dayan. A landsman from Bisermin?

    #1923749
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    No at my time Rav Yosef Steiner Hakohen was the Dayin but I knew him. You know, ein mashivin al hadrush, you can ask but I don’t have to answer. I asked Rav Yosef whether you can put food on radiator before its get hot. Rashi goes by the time being there but the Rosh goes by the place according to which we pasken and would not be allowed.

    #1923786
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    Benephraim, I try to answer your kashyeh, the 4 are mesim even currently, but that was a onetime situation.

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