descriptions on shidduch resume?

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  • #603668

    yentingyenta
    Participant

    my father and i have differing opinions about having a paragraph(s) on a shidduch resume describing 1-what type of person one is and 2-what type of person one is looking for.

    I say if the person suggesting the shidduch knows who I am/my family, why do they need either paragraph as they can just ask me/parents/relatives etc. and if not, call the references to find out more.

    My father wants me to put a paragraph of what I am looking for on my resume so people who don’t know me will know what type of man i want to marry. but I don’t want to because of misconceptions that can occur, misunderstandings etc. and if they do not know me, they can call the references to find out more.

    what do you think about it? [I’m leaving my resume the way it is (paragraph free) unless someone convinces me very strongly otherwise.]

    #879562

    ambush
    Participant

    um, Kibud Av should be a pretty powerful argument.

    #879563

    147
    Participant

    It is standard protocol to have 1 paragraph about yourself, and another paragraph about the ideal mate you are seeking.

    If composing such paragraphs are hard [& yes, it is,] then take a look at some of the paragraphs that other people have written up, and adapt them to your needs & wishes.

    In addition to these 2 paragraphs that your Dad is advocating you to compose, you also need a photograph:- A picture is worth 1000 words. There is absolutely no way around this one. I am sure your Dad will concur, and he simply forgot to mention the picture to you, or he just understood a picture to be so basic, that it never crossed his mind, that you wouldn’t automatically insert a picture.

    BTW after you have composed a paragraph, they can be redacted, if you find, that based on your 2 paragraphs, you are not meeting the type of guy you would rather be meeting. & a picture can also be changed, if you after a while feel you come across better, with different garb.

    I have been down this road, recently, whereas your Dad has probably not been down this road in over 2 decades, so my advice is sound & up to date.

    #879564

    gefen
    Participant

    I don’t know that it’s necessary to have a paragraph about yourself, as ppl can call your references to find that out. Also it may sound a bit haughty (for lack of a better word) to point out all your wonderful points – let others do that for you.

    However, I do feel it is necessary to write a paragraph describing what you are looking for. Even those who know you well may not know exactly what you want.

    Just wondering – what does your resume look like if you have nothing on it? Just your name, age, parents and sibs names, and schools you went to?

    Hatzlacha in your search.

    #879565

    oomis
    Participant

    Just wondering – what does your resume look like if you have nothing on it? Just your name, age, parents and sibs names, and schools you went to?”

    That is exactly what someone e-mailed me about a prosepctive shidduch for my daughter. I detest these things altogether, but if one insists on sending such a thing to someone else, it would make sense for it to be a little more informative than that.

    #879566

    interjection
    Participant

    The only thing that should be on the resume is name, age, rav, references, and those 2 paragraphs. Everything else is superfluous, and the picture is ridiculous.

    #879567

    RSRH
    Member

    Regardless of whether it is a good idea to put such paragraphs on your shidduch resume, it is a good idea to think long and hard about why you are reluctant to write these two paragraphs.

    I can’t speak for you, but as I imagine this may be read by any number of others, I’ll offer a few words of caution.

    One of the chief reasons why someone may be reluctant to write two paragraphs describing their self and describing what they want in a spouse MAY be that they simply cannot answer these terribly difficult, but absolutely vital questions. It is easy to vaguely want to get married to the perfect/right/bashert person; it is much harder to put down on paper what you imagine that person is like. Writing this all down forces you to be honest with yourself; you can’t hide behind vague senses left in the confines of your own mind. It forces you to be concrete and definite, and that is both scary and difficult. Best be sure you CAN put this down on paper before you go off seeking your life partner. Even if it never makes it to the resume, you will have done yourself a great service.

    #879568

    interjection
    Participant

    “Also it may sound a bit haughty (for lack of a better word) to point out all your wonderful points – let others do that for you.”

    The paragraph should not come across as flaunting, but you want the shadchan to be able to tell your personality from what you write. Are you deep? Are you spiritual? Are you fun? Are you serious? What means a lot to you?

    Just because family backgrounds match up, why make someone make needless phone calls when they can see if there is a purpose in any, from how you describe yourself.

    RSRH: Spot on!!

    #879569

    yentingyenta
    Participant

    first of all regarding the picture, it is given with the resume to the shadchan with explicit explanation the pic is for the shadchan’s reference only and is not to be sent with the resume. i do not believe a picture is an accurate representation of how any girl/women looks regardless if the person is photogenic or not.

    second of all, humans are complex. how am i supposed to accurately describe myself in 1 paragraph and convey the type of person i would like to build a BN”B in a second one? my resume has my education, my parents’ info and shul with Rav, my siblings, their ages and current school as well as a list of references (family friends, teachers and some of my close friends).

    third, the resumes of my freinds and others i have seen do not have a paragraph on the resumes.

    RSHS, i have written down the type of person i want to marry (edited many times from the original since sem) but i believe it is a personal list. some of the things that are important to me are the opposite trait of one/both of my parents. putting it down on paper for my father to read is not something i want. i have the list but i’m not looking to spread it around so my father can tell me why each is unimportant. regarding do i know myself? yes, i think i know myself well enough to write a paragraph but one paragraph does not describe an entire person.

    ambush, my father gave me the option of what i want to do and left it up to me

    147, no photo included. read above

    #879570

    SaysMe
    Member

    having seen quite a few resumes from all corners of north america (okay, not mexico yet) i can tell you there is no ‘usual’ in resumes. some have just very basic info- generally those of people looking for suggestions from people who knew of them before getting the resume. some have more info, but still just that. Some have a paragraph describing self, some describing what they’re looking for, and some both. some have these in point form of character traits instead of a paragraph. some people include pictures, some dont, and some include a picture for only the shadchan’s eyes. its true that the descriptions can help someone get a feel for you, and its also true that sometimes that picture can be completely wrong. its a personal choice

    #879571

    MiddlePath
    Participant

    yentingyenta, I know it’s absolutely none of my business, but I think it’s unhealthy to be “hiding” info about what you are looking for from your father just because he may be disapproving. I actually think it’s unfair of him to expect you to want to marry someone that has only similar personality traits as himself. Parents must realize that what is best for their children may not be exactly what is most appealing to themselves. I wouldn’t recommend dating at all until your parents are accepting of what you want in a spouse. They don’t need to LOVE it, but at least to accept it.

    And I think in one paragraph, there is enough room to write about a few of the more important characteristics you have. You don’t need to describe yourself entirely. And about what you are looking for, just a general direction, along with any particular traits, is usually enough. For example, I can honestly and openly say that I would like a girl who is sweet, positive, caring, and open minded. That’s usually enough for others to see what type of person I’d like.

    #879572

    not a tircha
    Participant

    If you were applying for a job, you would like for your resume to be eye-catching. The same should be the case when sending shiduchim resumes. The boys (parents) in today’s Jewish world get flooded with resumes. Do you think the boy’s parents will call every reference on every resume? These paragraphs often help the resume reader decide if it is worth his time to even call the references. This also means that these paragraph should not be just vague generalities thrown down as these words won’t have the desired effect on the reader.

    Good luck with your search.

    #879573

    SaysMe
    Member

    MP- if i can disagree with your last bit. Do you know anyone who wants a girl who is sour, negative or uncaring? (close-minded i can actually hear maybe… though she’s got to be open-minded enough to a guy’s POV) 🙂

    #879574

    apushatayid
    Participant

    Unfortunately, the situation has come to the point where girls are just commodities, passed from one guy to another by the brokers in the middle. You don’t need a resume, you need a PR kit to make sure you stand out in the crowd. It is no longer good enough that you are a bas yisroel, who is a tzanua, is machshiv torah and bnei torah. Now you also need the ability to produce madison ave style PR kits and generate hype, otherwise you are relegated to the trash heap of shidduchim. Of course, if you or daddy warbucks can flash around some cash, that is always the best PR kit and is guaranteed to generate interest in you.

    #879575

    yentingyenta
    Participant

    MP- thanx for the concern. unfortunately, my family dynamics are on the messed up side; certain things can set my father off in unexpected ways. my father knows what i am looking for but not things that would hurt him. ie, he knows i want someone who is calm and does not get angry but details like i want someone who can discuss something that is bothering him before it becomes a major issue i did not tell him. i am who i am today because i made a conscience decision to be different than my parents. part of doing that was making my list of things that are important to me in my future husband based on things i like(or disliked) about my parents.

    another reason i hinted to before. my father says he is open-minded and can accept other opinions yet it is not true. time and time again i will say something i found nice, a chap on a p’shat, something i think is important only to have my father correct me. it is only since sem i have learned to nod my head to him while mentally blocking his words on subject XYZ. the way i think is not for him to correct if i disagree on a certain area. i have learned there are certain topics not to mention and my father does not make a fuss if i leave a certain conversation/topic. it saves alot of stress in the family. because i like my mind the way it is, i rarely ask his opinion on certain topics

    not a tircha and apy-NO NO NO NO and NO. so you are saying i should sell myself? make my resume eye catching? NO. just FYI, i am no looking for a learning BOY, i am looking for a MAN who is WORKING. i’m not looking for the ‘best’ boy in the yeshiva. if i am supposed to meet my bashert, my resume (or how ever it happens) will get to him.

    #879576

    oomis
    Participant

    I am totally, utterly, and unalterably opposed to anything that is called a resume, where shidduchim are concerned. My children need resumes for job interviews. Period. People need to stop this nonsense, which gets worse and worse every year, and just MEET each other.

    #879577

    gefen
    Participant

    Interjection: “The paragraph should not come across as flaunting, but you want the shadchan to be able to tell your personality from what you write. Are you deep? Are you spiritual? Are you fun? Are you serious? What means a lot to you?…etc.”

    I see what ur saying, but I also agree with yentingyenta that we are complex individuals, and it’s kind of hard to really describe oneself. Hey – I’ve been married almost 22 years, and I still can’t describe myself 😉 Good thing we didn’t have shidduch resumes way back then.

    So anyway – Yentingyenta – do the best you can to write something about yourself (see Interjection’s ideas) and probably write more about what ur looking for. I’m no expert anyway, and also there are so many different ways of writing a resume. So once again, I wish you much Hatzlacha and you should find your bashert soon.

    #879578

    MiddlePath
    Participant

    SaysMe, you’re right, but it shows that I value those particular things over other attributes that other people may value most. So it shows where my priorities lie. Meaning, that I would be more interested in a girl who is sweet and caring than a girl who, say, has a lot of confidence and a great sense of humor.

    And I’m with oomis, instead of spending so much time with resumes, people can just meet and see for themselves if they’re a good match.

    #879579

    147
    Participant

    i do not believe a picture is an accurate representation of how any girl/women looks regardless if the person is photogenic or not.

    Very simple solution:- Send in more than 1 picture:- e.g. 1 in your Yom Tov outfit, 1 in Shabbos outfit, 1 in work outfit, and 1 in casual attire. or some combination of this, and possibly 1 B & W picture.

    This will give anyone a broader view of the back ground that you blend into.

    #879580

    yentingyenta
    Participant

    Mods, why isnt my previous comment going through?

    #879581

    SaysMe
    Member

    mp- u’ve convinced me! I got it now, thanks

    #879582

    more_2
    Member

    Ideally The girl should send a picture of herself without makeup. My wife didn’t wear makeup when we were dating and was herself… Girls these days plaster themselves with masks of makeup and it’s impossible to even know what her true features are… My friends brother is having this issue now Shidduchim and the girls are not true to what they are in more ways than one… Before you girls attack my. Post I should mention same with the guys tgey are nit true to what they are these days…

    #879583

    147
    Participant

    i.e. What more more_2 is stating is:- Don’t arrive to your date in a dark suit & white shirt & black hat, if you don’t always dress like this, or at least not on the 2nd & 3rd date.

    #879584

    Loyal Jew
    Member

    Middle Path says: “I’m with oomis, instead of spending so much time with resumes, people can just meet and see for themselves if they’re a good match.” R’l! First, “just meeting” is the way of animals and goyim. Animals are okay with it but the goyim have used it to turn their society into a wasteland, Hashem spare us. Second, carefully researched shidduchim are as old as the Avos, do our children have better judgment “just meeting” than Avrohom Avinu did? Third, we parents are on the hook to support our daughters’ families. This makes us a party to whatever happens, and “just meeting” may saddle us (not just our daughters) with the wrong type.

    #879585

    interjection
    Participant

    “I see what ur saying, but I also agree with yentingyenta that we are complex individuals, and it’s kind of hard to really describe oneself. Hey – I’ve been married almost 22 years, and I still can’t describe myself ;)”

    It is a huge process toward self actualization. Forget shidduchim, every person should know him/herself at least to the point that they could write one honest paragraph of who they are and what they want to be.

    The second paragraph should not be what you want you want in someone else, but the traits that you think fully complement yours.

    #879586

    mom12
    Participant

    however you write the profile is fine.

    basic details.. everyones ‘jewish’ name

    cuz thats whats important,

    the type of boy or girl one is looking for is a good idea.

    Your references dont always know the answer,,

    for instance- does the girl want a full time learning boy?

    how would the references know what to answer?

    I’ve asked this question, and was told to ask the girl herself,

    which is true.. she is the only one that wouls know the lifestyle she would like to lead, regardless of what her brothers or brothers in law are doing..

    Its just very helpful.. good luck

    #879587

    apushatayid
    Participant

    I was being sarcastic. I think the entire “shidduch resume” concept should be abolished. It is demeaning at best. If enough females in shidduchim and their parents said no to a “resume” (at least have the decency to call it a bio) and were opposed to attaching photos, people would get the message and stop asking for them.

    #879588

    yentingyenta
    Participant

    apy, ok got it. i also like your suggesting calling it a ‘bio’. better than resume or profile.

    147, no not gonna do that either. my way of dress has yeshivish leanings but i am not yeshivish. if i did that, i’d definitely get the wrong type of suggestions

    MP, oomis i agree with you. really i do. the only reason i have a resume is because the shadchanim ask for it. if i didnt need one, then i dont need one but once the shadchan asks then i have to send it. personally i find the shidduch system as is in need of some fixing. i’ve been in the “parsha” over a year yet not one shidduch that has been redt has been even close to being a yes. i’m thinking of ditching the system and trying something else cuz this isnt working.

    loyal jew, just fyi, my father will have no problems if i come home one day and said i met a boy in shul, school, through a freind and “he seems my type. please look into him.” go rant somewhere else if you have a problem

    #879589

    oomis
    Participant

    yentingyenta – I wish you much mazel and hatzlacha in finding your true basherte on your own. I hope he walks in the door somewhere that you are, and makes the first move. I met my wonderful spouse that way, and so did two of my kids. And Hashem sent us our zivugim without the need for external shadchanim. So much less pressure and so much more enjoyable experiences. I realize not everyone feels comfortable with meeting on their own, but likewise, many people feel the shadchan process is awkward and uncomfortable. To each his (or her) own.

    #879590

    mom12
    Participant

    Not all shadchanim ask for resumes, profiles or bios..

    not I nor my friends request one.

    we do a semi interview on the phone and ask the questions we need to know. if the other party asks questions we dont have the answer to we just call back..

    your ‘papers’ just makes it somewhat easier for the shadchanim.

    #879591

    oomis
    Participant

    “R’l! First, “just meeting” is the way of animals and goyim. Animals are okay with it but the goyim have used it to turn their society into a wasteland, Hashem spare us. Second, carefully researched shidduchim are as old as the Avos, do our children have better judgment “just meeting” than Avrohom Avinu did?”

    That first sentence is a little harsh, and a bit hysterical, as well. Many non-Jews meet through introductions (on-line matchmaking) today. They have a wasteland, because that is how many choose to live. They did the same thing when they were introduced solely by marchmakers, or to people whom their parents picked out for them.

    Shidduchim had to be researched by the Avos (and it really was ONLY Avraham Avinu anyway)because kids had no say in ANYTHING. Fathers basically arranged their children’s marriages. Like it or not. Our children WOULD have better judgment, were they allowed to grow up and act like the adults they purport to be.

    Most kids today are PLAYING at getting married. They have little or no real concept of what marriage really entails, the give and take, the need to be flexible and roll with the punches, the need to do without when you cannot afford something. They buy into the glamour of the “idea” of marriage, when all they are really doing is playing house (something they should have done when they were toddlers and still knew it was all pretend).

    Other kids are a little more mature and do have better judgment than one would think. They have a value system that is way more shayach than what kind of tablecloth their mother uses, or whether or not the kallah got the right size engagement ring. Getting married is for the purpose of building a bayis ne’eman b’Yisroel, and not to show off what kind of shower presents the kallah got, if she got pearls in the yichud room, and if her chosson is the “best boy” in the yeshivah.

    Moshe Rabbeinu met his wife at the well, so did Yaakov Avinu. I don’t hear anyone criticizing them for not going through a shadchan, or chalilah comparing them to those whom you mentioned in your first sentence.

    #879592

    interjection
    Participant

    Perhaps the reason none of them have been a yes is because you don’t have a bio.

    Well, that and because G-d runs the world. But writing a bio is tremendously awkward enough that it should be sufficient hishtadlus.

    #879593

    Belev Echad
    Participant

    from a practical viewpoint, if ur going to send a resume at all then just write the paragraphs. from my experience, it is the most annoying thing when u get a resume with just the basics. most people dont care what shul you go to, and who your relatives are.

    they want to know, in ur own words, a quick summary of ur priorities and what ur looking for-and NO not just a “nice person”. of course no ones looking for a mean one.

    but it gives people a lot more to build on when someone specifies things like “be happy making do with little” – “someone who loves to laugh” -” someone who loves doing fun things”- or “someone who is happy just enjoying doing nothing”.

    the way you describe yourself, and the person u r looking for is a thousand times more valuable than anyone else’s account-and by the way, other people often mess things up with a distorted perception. no one knows u better than u.

    #879594

    golden mom
    Member

    a few resumes that came my way the info describing the person was in third person which makes it sound that a parent or friend might have written it and therefore doesnt come accross as too hauty

    #879595

    Basya
    Participant

    My father doesnt want me go havd a resume. he says im not applying for a job…. Whsts bettrf to hand in resume and have it collect dust somewhere in thier archives or not hand anything in… How am i suposed to get offers this way… it seemd the shadchanim will not look at you without a resume! By listening keeping kibud av and not doing the acceptable hishtadlus that is a given factor now adays hoe in the wotld am i gonna meet my bashert?!

    #879596

    Naftush
    Member

    A few years ago, sites that spoke of “shidduch resumes” did so in a sarcastic tone of voice, as if saying “No one real does this.” Today it’s de rigueur and the only debate concerns the level of detail. What has changed?

    #879597

    oomis
    Participant

    I am with Basya’s dad, philosophically. However, if that hinders her ability to have shadchanim redt to her, then he needs to be realistic and protest on his one cheshbon, not on hers. I nonetheless AGREE with him completely. But when in Rome…

    Just stop calling it a resume. Call it basic info. It is NOT a job search, and I hate that the entire process has been reduced to a business transaction.

    #879598

    golfer
    Participant

    As a mother of a few sons, some having completed the “shidduch process” (and happily married), some still single and dating or soon to be, I have received and continue to receive a lot of resumes, or profiles, or bios, or whatever sounds less offensive to you. I have been busy with this since back in the day when shidduch resumes were not invented yet. I must say, the situation today being what it is, I think they are helpful and do not have to be hurtful or insulting to either young men or ladies. They just consolidate, in an organized the fashion, the info that I used to hastily scribble on whatever paper was handy; i.e. girl’s name, parents name, basic info on parents, siblings’ names and ages, machatonim (if applicable), shul and Rav, schools, camps, education etc of girl, grandparents (if applicable), and other relevant info. My sons & I never like the resumes with the often silly description of the young person in question, even when they try to pass it off as having been composed by a third party. Description of physical attributes (- slim, pretty, hair color etc) draw the most amusement & scorn from my boys, and the other superlatives & adjectives are most definitely NOT an attraction. Girls often come off sounding a bit foolish trying to describe their ideal mate as well. It is probably a good idea to describe what you envision in your future- a long-term Kollel life and te sacrifices it entails, a husband with an education/ profession, or whatever the case may be. If you describe the all inclusive idea of wanting a husband who may be a long or short term learner, in college or working etc etc, the reader will realize you have a brain full of fluff, no convictions, and juat want that diamond ring (!!) so try to be specific & clear. Keep it brief and to the point. We don’t want to hear about your good Middos. Yes it is true that good middos are a major (maybe THE major) component of a successful marriage & a happy home, but the person who dates you will ahve to figure it out for himself, or if he is lucky, through the candid comments of someone who gives info about you. For my part, I never ask anyone, “Does she have good middos?”; it’s like saying, “is she pretty?”- Nobody says, “No” even when the opposite is true. As for a photo, the majority of the resumes i receive do not include one. I’m not totally comfortable with the idea, but a small photo of you looking natural (not professionally prepped with gallons of make up & hair done) might not be a bad idea. One reason everyone ignores for the fact that boys get so many resumes and girls get so few names is the current system where shadchanim redt to the boy first, and pass on the info to the girl only after the boy has agreed to a date. This began by trying to protect the poor sensitive girls from receiving a “no” from a shidduch proposal (erroneously assuming that girls are so sensitive they can’t handle it, and boys don’t care- both totally incorrect!); however, we are not likely to change the status quo, and the mess that has evolved does it make it necessary for you to put yourself forward with a nice resume. Include pertinent info (a date of birth is helpful, and I find usually ommitted by persons of a certain age), type it up neatly & professionally, and leave out the long winded stories about how wonderful you are and what a mentsh you want. That’s where dating comes in! Daven for clarity and the clear understanding to make a good decision! Wishing you much hatzlacha!

    #879599

    yaakov doe
    Participant

    Basya – Ask your father to discuss it with his Rav. The Rav may even have a shidduch for you.

    This resume thing really took off despite the demeaning nature of it. What’s next? Weekly resumes in Torah Times?

    #879600

    Sam2
    Participant

    There is no Chiyuv of Kibbud Av V’em in what type of person you want to marry or how to find a Bashert.

    #879601

    apushatayid
    Participant

    But it IS a business transaction. How much support a year. For how long. You pay for the degree and I pick up yom tov at the hotel. The list is endless. As has already been mentioned several times. Noone cares or has any interest in hearing or reading that a suggested shidduch is a normal everyday person, who attended the local beis yackov and comes from a family of bnei torah, is machshiv torah and who absorbed those feelings as well.

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