Did Dell Bigtree change your perspective about anti vaxxers?

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  • #1625227

    Haimy
    Participant

    I heard Dell Bigtree’s interview & thought he was cogent, sensible, & responsible. I personally vaccinate my children but I believe the narrative the doctors are saying that vaccines are 100% safe is based on false assumptions. What do you think?

    #1625540

    👑RebYidd23
    Participant

    You antiantiantivaxxers are really weird.

    #1625538

    2scents
    Participant

    Not heard the interview yet i have personally researched the topic and have come to the conclusion that vaccines are effective and safe.

    Saying that you personal vaccinate, seems like your trying to come across as credible, however you are trying (very hard) to spread doubt and confusion regarding vaccines.

    #1625519

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    the doctors are saying that vaccines are 100% safe is based on false assumptions.

    No one says vaccines are 100% safe. There is always a risk. However, the risk is so small and the reward (in terms of public good) is so large that the benefits far outweigh the risks.

    No one lives their lives doing only things that are 100% safe.

    The Wolf

    #1625524

    Joseph
    Participant

    How are vaccines potentially unsafe?

    #1625560

    👑RebYidd23
    Participant

    Don’t personally vaccinate your children. Bring them to a doctor instead.

    #1625564

    Health
    Participant

    Wolf -so large that the benefits far outweigh the risks.

    That is what medicine is ALL about! When I look up a drug, I never found one with NO Side effects!

    #1625571

    Takes2-2tango
    Participant

    Breathing in the outside polluted air is far from being 100% safe.
    I think you should tell your doctor that you no longer want vaccinations and you know longer want to breath outside air so hr should prescribe for you an breathing apparatus , and that way you will show the world how right you are.

    #1625602

    truthishidden
    Participant

    Joseph
    Research the ingredients (vaccine ing. found on the CDC website) and their impact.

    #1625621

    Uncle Ben
    Participant

    Health; So why should one suffer from the side effects if there are in many cases natural alternatives that do not have such potentially serious side effects?

    #1625649

    apushatayid
    Participant

    “I believe the narrative the doctors are saying that vaccines are 100% safe is based on false assumptions”

    As has already been pointed out, there is no narrative anything is 100% safe. 99 maybe. The narrative is, the pitebtial bpositives far outweight the potential negatives

    #1625654

    👑RebYidd23
    Participant

    Natural medicine can be very effective, but it is usually too dangerous.

    #1625686

    DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    So why should one suffer from the side effects if there are in many cases natural alternatives that do not have such potentially serious side effects?

    They haven’t been proven safe or effective.

    #1625688

    DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Research the ingredients (vaccine ing. found on the CDC website) and their impact.

    How about you research the overall negatives of the vaccines vs. the negatives of the diseases they prevent?

    #1625778

    Health
    Participant

    Uncle Ben -“Health; So why should one suffer from the side effects if there are in many cases natural alternatives that do not have such potentially serious side effects?”

    Who says I’m against natural alternatives? The facts are they haven’t been proven to be safe.
    My main issue is effectiveness! If I think it might work, I’ll take it myself and recommend it to others.
    There’s a reason they discovered modern medicine, because ancient medicine has been around for thousands of years. If it worked, you wouldn’t need Modern Medicine!

    #1625801

    2scents
    Participant

    Alternative is not necessarily more natural than evidence based medicne, nor is natural more safe than synthetic.

    There are some medications that are natural yet they are not without side effects.

    Alternative usually means, not evidence based, not tested, not regulated, why would that be beneficial?

    #1625808

    👑RebYidd23
    Participant

    In rare cases, alternative is safe, effective and about to be FDA approved.

    #1625840

    truthishidden
    Participant

    DY
    I have and have come to the conclusion that the risks of vaccines far outweigh the benefits.
    But I am open to change my mind if someone reliably proves the opposite.

    #1625865

    Haimy
    Participant

    I’m not condoning people’s decision not to vaccinate during an epidemic, I do think he raised legitimate concerns with the oversight of vaccines. I personally do vaccinate though at a later age than what’s recommended by the CDC. Vaccination doesn’t need to be all or nothing, we need a state of balance. The anti-vaxxers are not a bunch of fools, they have well-respected poskim supporting them. As long as they have rabbinic support, you have no right to call them rodfim or humiliate them. You may have a right to keep their children out of school since schools are generally private institutions.

    #1625901

    2scents
    Participant

    A. Its rabbonim that called them these names.

    B. What rabbonim have come out in writing in support of defying accepted medical opinion?

    #1626022

    apushatayid
    Participant

    “The anti-vaxxers are not a bunch of fools, they have well-respected poskim supporting them.”

    This may be true. Who are they? Why dont we hear from them during this time? I’m related to a school administrator with unvaccinated kids in the school, and those families claiming religious exemption have not, depsite being asked, produced a letter from a single rav who provided that religious exemption. This is a yeshiva that has a long list of rabbonim telling them to keep unvaccinated children out, for now, and they are willing to work with these families, providing they tell them which rav gave them this religious exemption. it isnt a game, where one magically pulls a “religious exemption” out of a hat. It is legitimate to ask, what religion? presumably you choose our school because you subscribe to our religious beliefs. our religious leaders have told us children should be vaccinated. the school understands that not all rabbonim agree on everything, and like everything else, if your rav says differently, tell us who he is? (in this case, the school knows the shul rav where they daven, and he is a strong advocate of parents vaccinating their children, so the question is, what religious leader, from what religion provided an exemption).

    #1626038

    Haimy
    Participant

    Which Rabbonim have called them rodfim?
    Why does it need to be in writing? I personally asked one of the most respected Rabbonim in Lakewood who said he supports the decisions of anti vaxxers. He’s not interested in being harassed by the multitudes of hysterical people so it’s not in writing.

    #1626062

    Health
    Participant

    Haimy -“Which Rabbonim have called them rodfim?”

    Here they are:
    From YWN News:
    “Whoever isn’t vaccinated is a murderer” – so reads a Kol Koreh signed by leading Gedolim and Poskim in Eretz Yisroel.
    The Gedolim who signed the Kol Koreh include: Hagaon HaRav Yitzchak Zilberstein, Hagaon HaRav Shimon Ba’adani, Hagaon HaRav Sriel Rosenberg, Hagaon HaRav Moshe Shaul Klein and Hagaon HaRav Menachem Mendel Lubin”

    “Why does it need to be in writing?”

    Because if he thinks he has the Playtzus to argue with these Gedolim – it has to be in writing!
    I doubt he even knows that Gedolim weighed in on the Shaila.

    #1626102

    Yserbius123
    Participant

    I don’t need rabbinic support to tell me what any first year medical student knows.

    The sad fact is that in the case of vaccines, there are several prominent rabbonim that have been misguided by fools and liars. Since there is no Torah nor halachic cheshbon to use to figure out if vaccination is the right thing to do, Rabbonim have to rely on secular knowledge. And some rabbonim, R”L, mistook the fools for the educated ones.

    #1626132

    chan56
    Participant

    A religious exemption does not have to be signed off by your shul rabbi; it has to be based on sincere personal religious beliefs. If someone feels that the risks of vaccination outweigh the benefits, then that person would have a real halachic issue putting his healthy children at risk for the theoretical benefit of the klal.

    #1626139

    Meno
    Participant

    A religious exemption does not have to be signed off by your shul rabbi; it has to be based on sincere personal religious beliefs. If someone feels that the risks of vaccination outweigh the benefits, then that person would have a real halachic issue putting his healthy children at risk for the theoretical benefit of the klal.

    I don’t understand. If you say it’s a real halachic issue, then you should be able to produce a letter signed by a legitimate rav stating so. If you can’t produce such a letter, then any “sincere religous belief” you have is apikorsus.

    #1626140

    Joseph
    Participant

    I posted a letter signed by Rav Malkiel, Rav Salomon, Rav Shmuel Kaminetzky, Rav Aharon Schechter and five other rabbonim three years ago saying that parents do not need to vaccinate their children if they choose not to. The post wasn’t approved but it seems legit. It’s been making the rounds online in the last half a day.

    #1626191

    👑RebYidd23
    Participant

    Religious exemptions exist for JWs, not Jews.

    #1626245

    Meno
    Participant

    Joseph, do you think they would sign the same letter today?

    #1626295

    Health
    Participant

    Joe -“I posted a letter signed by Rav Malkiel, Rav Salomon, Rav Shmuel Kaminetzky, Rav Aharon Schechter”

    Those Rabbonim (more like Rosh Yeshivos) are the ones people go to for Eitzas. They aren’t known as Gedolay Psak Halachah.
    Here is the Psak – the Gedolim in our generaion came out with:
    “Whoever isn’t vaccinated is a murderer” – so reads a Kol Koreh signed by leading Gedolim and Poskim in Eretz Yisroel.

    #1626362

    Joseph
    Participant

    My strong view is that everyone should vaccinate. Even if a parent believes their children are healthy and could withstand if they contact a contagious virus without significant danger, nevertheless there’s a societal basis and need that everyone should vaccinate in order to protect those that cannot vaccinate. (Not referring to those that choose not to.) And there’s a society benefit of herd immunization preventing the spreading of the virus, which is lost if too many children aren’t vaccinated.

    That said, I think some or all of the nine signatories likely stand by their position today.

    #1626345

    anonymous
    Participant

    Let’s be clear: Almost no Gedolim or Rabonim came out wither way. No major names at least. It’s all “he said this” and ” he said that”.

    The only thing we have from the big names is the few letters saying that Dr. Shanick unsuccessfuly tried to plead his case to Reb Chaim. We have Reb Shmuel, Reb Malkiel Reb Matisyahu on to different letters I have, Reb Eliezer Dunner, Reb Aaron Shechter, Reb Elya Ber and more signing that Reb Chaim paskened one does not need to be vaccinated, and a school has no right to keep the unvaccinated out.

    The only big names we have on the vaxxers side is a quote from Reb Elyashiv. Maybe he said it, and maybe he didn’t. But the letter also said the information the questioner told Reb Elyashiv, which is extremely one sided. Reb Chaim listened to both sides.

    People are saying “Why don’t the anit-vaxxer Gedolim say anything?” They are saying plenty. Reb Shmuel, when we need him and agree with him, is the Zekan HaGedolim in America. And besides, most people don’t look as well as he does at 94, bli ayin hara. Maybe, just maybe, he does know what health is all about. Many people have recently tried to convince him to change his mind. He wont. Reb Malkiel is also very strong. There have been many meetings, with both sides with these and other Gedolim. You would be in total shock if you heard the horrible scary stories which are being presented at these meetings which were caused from the vaccines.

    Unfortunately, this side and their stories is not being reported.

    Let me tell you, most of my kids were vaxed. Except for one. After his first dose, he turned white, got a horrible high fever and needed to be rushed to the hospital. The doctor would not give him his second shot.

    I understand with the news being reported, it is difficult to even hear the anti-vaxxer side. But we must keep our Emunas Chochomim. Like the Torah tells us, “Al Yamin Shehu S’mol”, even if it does not make sense to us.

    That is what Emunas Chochomim means. Not just to listen when it makes sense to you. And for those who say “it’s their wives”, it’s not true. It’s them. I have verified this with their families.

    The pro-vaxxer Gedolim are also not comin g out in public. Just a very few of them. And none of the big names. They are paskening for their talmidim, they wasy it should be. The publicizers are the Vaxxer PR guys, probably being paid by the frum “Soros”. If they would not have made such a ruccucs, the schools would be followong the Gedolim and wouldn’t buckle under pressure. They would still allow religous exemption.

    #1626461

    2scents
    Participant

    Anonymous,

    Not sure which planet your on, but the Bedatz and others have come in writing very clearly about vaccinations.

    Your conspiracy like talking sits well with the scare tactic way of the anti vaxxers.

    Talking about money involved, you probably meant the money made by those practicing alternative medicine, they use scare tactics and twisted anecdotal stories to get people skeptical and scared to follow evidence based medicine.

    They have a lot to earn from making up claims and planting skepticism against accepted medicine, in fact they are probably completely dependent on spreading this nonsense.

    #1626471

    Health
    Participant

    Anon -“Let’s be clear: Almost no Gedolim or Rabonim came out wither way. No major names at least. ”

    Why do you Anti-vaxxers always lie?!? I guess these people aren’t Gedolim or Rabbonim in your eyes! “Havana Harav Yitzchak Zilberstein, Hagaon HaRav Shimon Ba’adani, Hagaon HaRav Sriel Rosenberg, Hagaon HaRav Moshe Shaul Klein and Hagaon HaRav Menachem Mendel Lubin.”

    Some people think it has to be my way or the highway.
    You’re not fooling anybody, but yourself!

    #1626481

    takahmamash
    Participant

    Pardon me for asking, but who is Dell Bigtree? Is he famous?

    #1626544

    apushatayid
    Participant

    If one claims a religious exemption let them state which religion. If the claim is yiddishkeit let them produce the psak. This is the position of one administrator I know.

    #1626587

    👑RebYidd23
    Participant

    Antivaxxers, can you name a gadol who currently supports not vaccinating, or are you refusing because it would be lashon hara?

    #1626601

    Joseph
    Participant

    RY23, see my comment above.

    #1626789

    Yserbius123
    Participant

    @takahmamash I had to google the name. He’s a guy with a website. I think the only thing that makes him famous is that he hates the government and he’s very against doctors and medical science. That makes him a big name for conspiracy theorists and “alternative medicine” types. A few years ago he made a movie (falsely) claiming that the CDC suppressed data on the dangers of vaccination.

    #1626919

    anonymous
    Participant

    Health, first of all, I am not an anti-vaxxer. Most if my children are vaxxed, besides one who almost died after the first dose

    But who’s the one who is not telling the truth? Did you actually read the letter signed by the Rabonim you are quoting? There is not a word in that letter about vaccinations. It just says that if one is sick ch”v, he need to go to a doctor. It doesn’t talk about vaccinating a healthy person.

    However, the two letters signed by many Gedolim testify that Reb Chaim holds we don’t need to vax, and schools must accept non-vaxxers are being ignored.

    Reb Shmuel is also a pretty big Gadol. Or is that only when we agree with him?!?

    #1626958

    2scents
    Participant

    Anonymous,

    A. Would you mind posting the discharge summary provided by the hospital of your child that “almost diesd” from a vaccine shot?

    B. Can you quote the exact language of the letter quoting Reb Chaim?

    #1626961

    ubiquitin
    Participant

    “Reb Shmuel is also a pretty big Gadol. Or is that only when we agree with him?!?”

    I don’t follow, why does not agreeing make someone not a Gadol?

    #1626965

    Health
    Participant

    Anon – Yes, I agree that is what it said, but I think the question was regarding vaccinations.
    So until I speak to them – I’ll let it go.

    “Reb Chaim holds we don’t need to vax, and schools must accept non-vaxxers are being ignored.
    Reb Shmuel is also a pretty big Gadol. Or is that only when we agree with him?!?”

    I agree that they are Gedolim, but when it comes to Halachah – e/o must follow the Poisek Hador – Namely Rav Shternbach!
    Go look up his letter regarding vaccines.
    Btw, do you only wear an Up-hat, like Rav Chaim?!?

    #1627496

    anonymous
    Participant

    Health, I also agree with you. Evetone must follow there own Rov/Posek.

    My point was exactly what you wrote: “Some people think it has to be my way or the highway.” The vaxxers ae backed by the fum media and the frum Soros, and keep on acting as if there is no other tzad.

    I believe there are two ligit mehalchim, and each one should follow their own Rov.The non-vaxxers are not ripping apart the vaxxers. It is the vaxxers denying there is even another tzad and getting all personal about it.

    #1627776

    2scents
    Participant

    Anonymous,

    I agree with you that there is room for people to exercise their free will.

    However, I strongly disagree with you about the notion that there is this conspiracy pushing vaccines. In fact, I will argue that the ‘following’ and cult-like anti-vaccine movement makes it seem like it is the other way around.

    In fact, the false scare tactics seem to support this notion, If all this is, is some people questioning and hesitations about the evidence based medicine, why make a movement with hotlines, why not just do what you believe is the right thing to do and move on?

    To me it seems pretty straightforward, there is a huge industry that is completely dependant on spreading false information against evidence-based medicine, this is the only way they are able to further their ‘alternative’ practices, these people have their entire livelyhood built based on the idea of convincing people that evidence based medicine is a problem and they offer a solution.

    Once again, I ask you, for the sake of having an honest discussion to disclose what the life threathaning event your child had, what the diagnosis and treatment were. How else can we take you seriously?

    #1627780

    2scents
    Participant

    Can anyone post what Reb Chaim said?

    Did he say not to vaccinate, or he only said that schools should accept all children even the ones that are not vaccinated?

    Furthermore, did he say it at a time that there was an outbreak? Because the poskim that have now come out (in writing) that everyone should vaccinate, did not say this before the outbreak.

    #1627824

    Health
    Participant

    Anon -“Health, I also agree with you. Evetone must follow there own Rov/Posek”

    I never said that – why do you lie? This is what I posted -“e/o must follow the Poisek Hador – Namely Rav Shternbach!
    Go look up his letter regarding vaccines.”
    Also, what other SN’s do you go by?!?

    #1628491

    Yserbius123
    Participant

    Rav Moshe Heineman’s Vaad Harabonim of Baltimore just issued a statement

    We consider it a Halachic obligation for every member of the community – adults and children – to be properly vaccinated according to the standards and schedules established by the medical community as outlined by the CDC (https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/schedules/index.html). These standards have been responsible for the eradication of many terrible diseases and have significantly improved public health in our country. As we are seeing in the current measles epidemic, ignoring or undermining the policy of universal vaccination endangers the community and is Halachically wrong.

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