June 27, 2013 7:13 pm at 7:13 pm #609817
As you know, there is a commandment in the Torah that states that you must keep your word. Granted, this commandment is stated with regard to a neder (a specific type of vow), but it could be argued that even in the absence of a formal neder, the verse of “Motza S’fasecha Tismor V’asisa” requires a person to keep their word.
My wife needed some information from me regarding work last night. At the time, I did not believe I had access to it outside the office and so I told her that I would email it to her as soon as I arrived in the office. I gave her my word that I would do this.
As it turns out, I tried to access the information the next morning before I went to work and was successful. I left the info for her where she would find it and then went to work.
Since I had already sent the info, I did not do so when I arrived at work. However, a few hours later, it occurred to me that I may have been required to send her the info again anyway. The reason is that I told her that I would send her the info “when I arrived in the office in the morning.” The fact that I sent it earlier does not, necessarily, negate the fact that I obligated myself to send it when I arrived at the office.
This leads to an interesting question — what type of commandment is “Lo Yacheil” (or “Motza S’fasecha”)? Is it Bein Adam LaMakom or Bein Adam L’chaveiro?
If it’s the latter, then when my wife received the information, she presumably released me from any further obligation in the matter, and I’m in the clear.
On the other hand, if it’s Bein Adam L’Makom, then she can’t release me from my obligation — it’s not an obligation to her, but to HKBH. If I had said “I’ll get the info for you in the morning” then I would have been okay. But because I specified “in the office” then perhaps I have violated the injunction because I did not fulfill my words as spoken.
I understand all the usual caveats: AYLOR, etc.
The WolfJune 27, 2013 7:50 pm at 7:50 pm #961383ubiquitinParticipant
BY Nedarim we look out how people speak. When someone says “I would email it to her as soon as I arrived in the office” There is no confusion in anybody’s mind that he means “if he had not already by then” That is understood and assumed by all.June 27, 2013 8:00 pm at 8:00 pm #961384WIYMember
For this reason I try to always think or say “bli neder” when I offer to do something for someone. We never know what may come up and how the situation can change. To answer your question, “libi omer li” that you are fine you had no idea that you would be able to send it earlier. Your whole purpose in saying what you said was that you would send it asap. Not “davka” from your office.June 27, 2013 8:07 pm at 8:07 pm #961385
BY Nedarim we look out how people speak
That may be true, but this was not a neder (which has a very specific format and wording). Hence my mentioning in the OP that this may not really be an issue of “Lo Yacheil” but perhaps more of an issue of “Motza S’fasecha.”
The WolfJune 27, 2013 8:21 pm at 8:21 pm #961386WIYMember
Well I guess you should never say that you will “plotz” if X happens or “go crazy” if Y happens….June 27, 2013 10:56 pm at 10:56 pm #961387ubiquitinParticipant
wow oops sorry i missed that.
I stand by my answer thoughJune 28, 2013 2:48 am at 2:48 am #961388
Well I guess you should never say that you will “plotz” if X happens or “go crazy” if Y happens….
The difference is that no one takes such statements literally. Everyone knows when you say such a thing, it is not literal. However, there is no reason to state that my “when I get to the office” is not literal. I certainly meant it literally.
The WolfJune 28, 2013 3:38 am at 3:38 am #961390jewishfeminist02Member
Correct, this does not qualify as a neder. One should say “bli shevua” rather than “bli neder”.
What you did was commit to something, which is a shevua. A neder would be if you were to prohibit yourself from something.
This was one of the first things my husband taught me when we met and I happened to use the phrase “bli neder”. It seems to be a little known fact in the frum community.June 28, 2013 3:41 am at 3:41 am #961391jewishfeminist02Member
Correction: my husband says that because you did not use shem hashem (I assume) it was not even a shevua and therefore there is no transgression.June 28, 2013 4:29 pm at 4:29 pm #961392dafbiyunParticipant
I don’t see how there could possibly be an issur of moitzi sifasecha or lo yachel.If there was, how would mechila work? For example, i agree to pay (or repay) you $50 or I agree to paint your front porch. You then are moichel.If there was some din bain adam l’makom i would still be required to pay you or paint your porch. (I used the second case to preclude a “k’ilu hiskasbalti” argument.) Moreover, even in the cases of nidrai zeruzin, where one actualy says that he swears that he wont sell an item below a particular price or asssurs his friend from hanaah if he doesn’t attend a simcha…. chazal determined that the neder is simply invalid. I am unaware of any indication in the gemorrah, meforshim or poskim that one should nevertheless” keep his word”. Its either a neder or it is not.June 28, 2013 5:35 pm at 5:35 pm #961393dafbiyunParticipant
An even simpler case: I say I will sell you my car for $500 and you say you will buy it at that price. Then we both change our minds and decide not to go through with the deal.Clearly, we are not both oiver any issur despite not having done what we specifically said we would.
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