April 25, 2019 5:59 pm at 5:59 pm #1719487IchVeisNitParticipant
Is this it: Chabad’s main focus is in the here and now, to make the world a Dirah Batachtonim, whereass the other Chassidishe and Litvishe kraizin main focus is for the afterlife, doing as much Torah learning to get a good spot upstairs.
Did I get it right?April 25, 2019 7:22 pm at 7:22 pm #1719503jakobParticipant
The difference is that they believe hashem comes first but their rebbe is an inch after. That’s pushing it WAY TO FAR.
Our rebbes and rabbis are messenger to help guide us through life but their not like a G-dApril 25, 2019 7:22 pm at 7:22 pm #1719499JosephParticipant
Everyone else is like one except Lubavitch?April 25, 2019 7:59 pm at 7:59 pm #1719520
Joseph, Et tu, Brute?April 25, 2019 7:59 pm at 7:59 pm #1719519
jakob – you found an opportunity to spew hatred against other Jews. I hope you feel good. You bring shame to your ancestors.April 25, 2019 8:00 pm at 8:00 pm #1719504
In wide broad strokes, chassidus focusses on the positive connection with HKBH, while mussar focusses on the loss to the person when he lacks connection to HKBH (Gehenim etc). Chabad Chassidus is an intellectual approach *study) while other Chassidus use emotions. There is lots of overlap and similarities in the mutual goal of serving HKBH. All the roads lead to the Kings Palace.April 27, 2019 9:40 pm at 9:40 pm #1719571
Musar is not to Litvaks as Chassidus is to Chassidim.April 27, 2019 11:03 pm at 11:03 pm #1719561YsiegelParticipant
This is a very deep question that has several aspects to it, and can branch out to very many sub-topics if taken in the right direction.
Taken in the wrong direction–and you can bet that it will on these forums, since there are both people who are bent on provocatively stating outright that Chabad is the best etc. etc. better than all the others etc. etc., and people who are imbued with hatred towards Chabad, as I say you can bet that on these forums it may very well be taken in the wrong direction–it will very quickly (probably about a third down of page one all the way to page 24) spiral into an endless bickering about how Chabad is kofrim, changing minhagim, egotistical, but all the same do good things for the benefit of klal Yisroel…etc….etc…etc…
It really pains me that literally thousands of volumes of very deep knowledge have been boiled down to whether Chabadniks sleep in the Sukkah (a minhag they have kept for hundreds of years, alongside prominent Litvisher figures who had nothing to say of the matter) and whether they eat before davening or not (something which has a very clear heter in the Alter Rebbe’s Shulchan Aruch–and you can see his sources there). Of course I’m going to be required to provide sources, be questioned on what I mentioned, but I have no intention of starting any arguments here, just for the record, so don’t anybody expect any responses on these issues.
Regarding what you ask…The Lubavitcher Rebbe himself asked the Previous Rebbe of Chabad what are the differences between Chabad Chassidus and Polish-Galician style Chassidus (so you see how complex it is, here is a question only with the differences among other Chassidim, and you’re asking about general Judaism!). The response was a very beautiful one, printed in his letters and translated and collected in English in a series titled “Branches of the Chassidic Menorah” by Sichos in English publication (two volume series).
As an introduction, the Previous Rebbe clearly states that he will not respond to the differences between them since (and I am paraphrasing from memory) we don’t have tools large enough to measure these two mountains against each other. As such, he proceeds to explain what made Chabad Chassidus unique, rather than discussing it in contrast against other groups, since we want to preserve and be proud of what we have, and there is no need to compare to others.
This, I think, is a very proper approach. What Chabad Chassidus, then, might have which others don’t (and this is really off the top of me head just so I go away actually having answered your question) is a very practical school of thought which allows one to appreciate and mamash grasp (intellectually) spiritual concepts in a way which ACTUALLY changes one’s life, whether in avodas hamiddos, in our Torah learning, and..well our entire avoda in general.April 28, 2019 2:16 am at 2:16 am #1719682GAONParticipant
In other words, the op is incorrect.
Personally, the very concept of דירה בתחתונים is not Chabad, many others have been focused on that as well, it’s not about a better “spot” in gan Eden.
Although, you will definitely find that distinction in old school classic literature explaining the diff between chassidim and misnagdim. E.g. one of the sayings: “a misnagid is afraid of the ‘Shulchan Aruch’ whereas a Chassid is afraid of Hashem”…
Are those accurate assumptions?
Perhaps in some cases and many cases certainly not.
Some sayings would go the other way around…
Also, when saying “polish chassidim” we need to be aware that there were diff approaches there as well, like Peshischa/Kotzk were diff as they were focused and more on intellect and perfection..ואכמ”לApril 28, 2019 2:40 am at 2:40 am #1719687YsiegelParticipant
Certainly I disagree with the OP’s statements when understood in a literal, shallow sense…I wonder, too, at his intentions but I decided to take his question at face value…
Regarding all statements mentioning “Misnagdim” (and “Misnagdim vs. Chassidim”), it is important to understand that these days, when the real, hard-core Misnaged of two hundred years ago is not at ALL what exists today. The terms refer to the concepts behind them. For example, there are many “chassidim” who are really not so much chassidim! (Many of whom you can easily find hanging around the CR…) don’t wanna get too much into here though…
Now, when you really, REALLY dig down deep into the kishkes of the concepts, Gan Eden vs. Olam Hazeh really are opposing emphases between the two parties, VERY ROUGHLY speaking. That is, if you speak to your average Litvisher Yeshiva bochur (and I have spoken to no small amount of them, from various backgrounds, and have heard many, many others spoken to as well), it is not uncommon to find that the end-goal, the ultimate purpose, is to, say, be a Talmid Chochom. Or, perhaps, to gain schar mitzvah and so on and so forth.
Now, Gan Eden is representative of a concept of receiving reward for your actions; of GETTING to some kind of compensation for your actions etc. And this, in effect, is ultimately the same as being a Talmid Chochom, or schar mitzvah mitzvah in the traditional understanding of the verse.
Contrary to that, Chassidus Chabad very much emphasizes the avoda that we do here in this world as an end-goal in and of itself. So, obviously, everyone will agree that that is our purpose, and other groups will hold that to be an ikkar. The question is in the concept behind it, what is the significance of this avoda. So in a sense, yes, Chassidus Chabad will often circle around this world as an ikkar more-so than other groups might, but I still don’t think that THAT is what is the one thing unique about Chabad that sets it different than other groups.
Regarding Polish Chassidim, of course you are correct, and I attempted at some point in my previous comment to so much as hint at that, but as you say this isn’t the place for such an arichus…
I wrote the above in a bit of a hurry and without editing so I realize some of it may be a tiny bit difficult to understand what I’m getting at…I’ll be happy to clarify upon request.April 28, 2019 3:03 am at 3:03 am #1719690
Why focus on our differences? let’s focus on our similarities.
And learn from each other.April 28, 2019 11:03 am at 11:03 am #1719881
“It really pains me that literally thousands of volumes of very deep knowledge have been boiled down to whether Chabadniks sleep in the Sukkah (a minhag they have kept for hundreds of years, alongside prominent Litvisher figures who had nothing to say of the matter) and whether they eat before davening or not”
Yeah, it’s a real shame when people base their opinions on the halachah rather than on buzz phrases like “we’re intellectual and everyone else is emotional.”April 28, 2019 7:00 pm at 7:00 pm #1719994charliehallParticipant
If you don’t like Chabad minhagim, keep some other collection of minhagim.
We have enough divisions as it is.April 28, 2019 8:23 pm at 8:23 pm #1720034Non PoliticalParticipant
It’s clever how you positioned the Litvish Oilem as being על מנת לקבל פרס and Chabad as לא עך מנת לקבל פרס (or maybe על מנת שלא לקבל פרס). I guess we can’t compare between the mountain of Chabbad Chassidus and the mountain of Polish Chassidus but let’s tread on the the lowly Litvish molehill. That’s ok. Har Sinai was the lowest mountain also.April 28, 2019 8:23 pm at 8:23 pm #1720026Yabia OmerParticipant
There’s a lot of mahloket among Ashkenazim. Sheesh.April 28, 2019 8:23 pm at 8:23 pm #1720021K-cupParticipant
” if you speak to your average Litvisher Yeshiva bochur…”
It’s important to note, the average litvish yeshiva bachur does not get an equivalent education in litvish haskafa as do chassidic bachurim in chasidus. In fact they really get very very little.April 28, 2019 8:23 pm at 8:23 pm #1720016Reb EliezerParticipant
דירה בתחתונים is only a means to the end of gaining Olam Haboh.April 30, 2019 2:28 pm at 2:28 pm #1721269LerntminTayrahParticipant
Evryone else follows the Rambams’ 13 ikkarim.April 30, 2019 4:21 pm at 4:21 pm #1721353
yo – “There’s a lot of mahloket among Ashkenazim. Sheesh.” It’s called “sibling rivalry”. Last I heard, sefardim also act as siblings, Deri and Yishai and their respective chachomim/gedolim…April 30, 2019 8:07 pm at 8:07 pm #1721441
Us Litvish?yeshivish Yidden keep halacha.
Yet it is perplexing that nearly all the Litvish Ywshivos make a “hoicha kedusha” mincha minyan (when chazan only says shemonei esrei out loud till kedusha) – which the Bais Yossef and ALL poskim say is wrong.
It is also perplexing that although we are careful to follow the Mishna Brura and study the writings of the Chofetz Chaim, Litvish Yeshivos urge bochurim to shave, even though the Chofetz CHaim held it is forbidden.
At the same time, we point to other Yidden that we feel are doing contrary to halacha (not sleeping in sukkah or eating cake before davening) as if we are so much better at halacha-keeping than they are.May 1, 2019 9:11 am at 9:11 am #1721629
“It’s important to note, the average litvish yeshiva bachur does not get an equivalent education in litvish haskafa as do chassidic bachurim in chasidus. In fact they really get very very little.”
This is important; it’s what I was getting at earlier. Chassidus and Musar are not comparable. For one, a lot of sifrei chassidus are peirushim on the Torah rather than stand-alone sforim. When a litvish Rabbi writes a commentary, we don’t call it “Litvus” or musar. Musar is a stand alone subject. Someone could be a Litvish talmid chochom and never learn a word of musar in his life. At the end of the day, Litvish just implies stam, Orthodox Ashkenaz without any bells or whistles like Chassidus.May 1, 2019 11:19 am at 11:19 am #1721709LerntminTayrahParticipant
The litvish follow the 13 ikkarim. The Rebbe said you don’t have to since a Rebe is the essense of G-d in a human body and it’s ok to pray to a Rebbe (as per 1979 sicha)May 1, 2019 5:54 pm at 5:54 pm #1721777It is Time for TruthParticipant
To clue you in, since you keep harping on the same subject.
is that the only thing they didn’t follow Chofetz CHaim on?
He was against eating before blowing the shofar
He held they should wear long rather than shorter jacket
He told his grandsons reportedly that they should grow tchupps in front since with their beards and longer jackets shouldn’t come to be confused for chassidim!May 1, 2019 6:07 pm at 6:07 pm #1721892
Lernt – if you really believe the foolishness you write then YOU must keep it, and as such all those Yidden are possul l’eidus for gitten and kiddushim, their wine is ossur (hope you don’t enjoy the Italian wine under their hechsher), their shchita is possul, you can’t rely on the OK or all those yidden servig as mashgichim for the national kashrus organizations, and you can’t include them for a minyan, even when you are a chiyuv.
In other words, either stand by your words and keep them, or stop being silly. You can’t have it both ways – either they are kosher frum Yidden or they are apikursim. It’s all or nothing.
editedMay 1, 2019 7:18 pm at 7:18 pm #1721940HorrifiedParticipant
Problem with chabad, is their is no rebbe so no direction.
Even bigger problem is the messianic Chabad who belive they have a rebbe, and therefore convinced that they have direction!!May 1, 2019 8:49 pm at 8:49 pm #1721966
You say that the rebbe says that you can daven to the rebbe, I looked up that Sicha and what the rebbe asks is how can we ask the rebbe to ask for us (not davening to the rebbe) which is normally assur mitzad memmutzah (and what we ask malachim to ask on behalf of is by neilah the korban haedah days we shouldn’t because of that but the Tzemach Tzedek answers in or hatorah that the malachim are just bringing up or Tefilos not asking on our behalf) but a tzadddik is allowed to ask on our behalf since Hashem is revealed in himMay 1, 2019 8:55 pm at 8:55 pm #1721969
Difference between Lubavitch and others?
PR (Public Relations), publicity is one of the ikarim (fundamentals) of Lubavitch.
Lubavitch runs a giant PR operation.
Modern Lubavitch is a PR creation to a great degree.
Way back in the 1950’s Yudel Krinsky was hired by Lubavitch to have someone fluent in English on their staff. Over time he became the Lubavitcher PR guru, liaison to the NY Times, etc.
In recent years, Lubavitch has a disproportionate presence online, which it uses to promote itself, naturally.May 1, 2019 8:55 pm at 8:55 pm #1721977
I looked up that Sicha and what the rebbe asks is how can we ask the rebbe to ask for us…which is normally assur mitzad memmutzah
Since when is it assur to daven for someone? We all do that all the time.May 1, 2019 9:14 pm at 9:14 pm #1721991
What exactly is the reason you opened up the room?
This is your profile
Topics Started: 2
Replies Created: 0
Do you by any chance have to accounts? One to open and the another to reply?
I’m trying to figure out how sincere you are………May 1, 2019 11:19 pm at 11:19 pm #1722015
In korbon nesanel rosh Hashanah at the end of the first perek he asks how do we ask the malachim to ask Hashem for us it’s a prob of memutzah which is the 5th ikar “שאין ראוי לעבדם להיותם אמצעים לקרבה אליו אלא אליו בלבד יכונו המחשבות ויניחו כל מה שזולתו ” that’s the words of the korban nesanel the lashon of the Sicha (I’m yiddish) is וואס איז שייך בכלל בעטן ביי א רעבין עס איז דאך אן עניין פון א ממוצע which is clearly not davening to a rebbe and not specific to lubavitch rather everyone who asks by a tzadddik, the point is its notכפירהMay 2, 2019 7:08 am at 7:08 am #1722018
Meaning that the problem of a memutzah is like quoted above that it’s asking something else not Hashem, but a tzadddik is a memutzah hamechaber meaning that since the tzaddik is so connected and nullified to Hashem connecting to the tzaddik connects u to Hashem directlyMay 2, 2019 7:09 am at 7:09 am #1722002
Here we go again……
“Evryone else follows the Rambams’ 13 ikkarim.”
And then you had to say it again
“The litvish follow the 13 ikkarim. The Rebbe said you don’t have to since a Rebe is the essense of G-d in a human body and it’s ok to pray to a Rebbe (as per 1979 sicha)”
You can’t hold yourself back from expressing hate and making division.
You keep on saying this nonsense without explaining the concepts and answer my questions on the subject.
You are not interested in explanations
Just wondering have you ever learned the sicha? Do you know where it’s printed? Do you know what the Rebbe is trying to explain with this? Have you trying finding out what the top mashpiem in Lubavitche say about the sicha and explain it? Or you only interested what it says online?
You say you’re litvishe, do you even know yeddish to learn the sicha? Very possible you do, they’re some litvishes that know yeddish.
You said litvishe believes in the 13 ikrim, what about Chassidim?May 2, 2019 7:12 am at 7:12 am #1722006
Horrified – “Problem with chabad, is their is no rebbe so no direction.”
Let me mirror back your words:
Problem with litvish/Yeshivish/Sefard/Yekka community is there is no rebbe so no direction.May 2, 2019 7:12 am at 7:12 am #1722008
Lit – “Difference between Lubavitch and others? PR (Public Relations), publicity is one of the ikarim (fundamentals) of Lubavitch.”
Let me mirror back your words after I just pulled out of my mailbox a 12-page glossy colorful magazine with photoshopped pics of Gedolim and a Dial a Segulah 800 number:
Difference between Litvish and Yeshivish?
PR (Public Relations), publicity is one of the ikarim (fundamentals) of Litvish…Vaad HaTzedakas, Vadd HaAniyim, get a brocha, segul, will daven for you for anything and everything you want…dial 1-800-Give-Gelt..May 2, 2019 7:19 am at 7:19 am #1722017
And the point of the answer is that tzaddikim don’t go under the category of memutzah that is assur since they are 1 with Hashem which btw the rebbe brings sources forMay 2, 2019 7:21 am at 7:21 am #1722057
Meaning that the problem of a memutzah is like quoted above that it’s asking something else not Hashem
That’s not what you said earlier. “Asking” someone else and “davening to” someone else are synonymous. It’s called avoda zara.
since the tzaddik is so connected and nullified to Hashem connecting to the tzaddik connects u to Hashem directly
The early ovdei avoda zara rationalized that way about the son and the moon.May 2, 2019 7:26 am at 7:26 am #1722064
Chossid, when the best you can do is call someone a hater because of hashkafic challenges, it doesn’t defend your position well.May 2, 2019 7:26 am at 7:26 am #1722065
RGP, instead of defending Chabad by attacking Litvaks, why don’t you actually defend their actions and hashkafos?
And if you’re going to go with the parallel attack method, they should at least be on target. When the best you can do is make inapt comparisons, it weakens your position.May 2, 2019 9:31 am at 9:31 am #1722106
DY, I don’t defend anyone. In fact, I don’t think that need a defense at all. I think the attackers are hypocritical and full of baloney. Of c”v the movement had kefira, gedolim would not have accorded exteme kovod to their Rebbe and routinely study his seforim. That is indisputable evidence.May 2, 2019 10:52 am at 10:52 am #1722194
I think we can both agree that we had some what normal conversations together, but when someone just repeats himself just stating false facts and not interested in explanations, doesn’t deserve more than my above comment.
I’m sure you can see yourself his intentions.May 2, 2019 10:52 am at 10:52 am #1722199
“The early ovdei avoda zara rationalized that way about the son and the moon.”
There is a huge difference between a mimutza hamechber and amimutza hamafsik.
Are you going to compare the yeddin in the midbor asking Moishe Rabbiu for their need, is compared to people serving the sun a the moon? Not only that Moishe said ונתתי.May 2, 2019 10:53 am at 10:53 am #1722213
“Rebbitzen”: “Lit – “Difference between Lubavitch and others? PR (Public Relations), publicity is one of the ikarim (fundamentals) of Lubavitch.”
Let me mirror back your words after I just pulled out of my mailbox a 12-page glossy colorful magazine with photoshopped pics of Gedolim and a Dial a Segulah 800 number:
Difference between Litvish and Yeshivish?
PR (Public Relations), publicity is one of the ikarim (fundamentals) of Litvish…Vaad HaTzedakas, Vadd HaAniyim, get a brocha, segul, will daven for you for anything and everything you want…dial 1-800-Give-Gelt..”
But inadequate and off the mark.
The booklets you refer to are the product of out of control fundraisers, and have been condemned by Litvishe gedolim. So they don’t represent the Litvishe community as a whole.
On the other hand,the Lubavitch PR machine was established and encouraged by your late Rebbe himself.
You are also conflating fundraising with PR in general.
The Chazon Ish, Steipler, etc., z”l didn’t hire a PR guy way back in the 1950’s as the late Rebbe hired Yudel then.
Obviously a great difference.May 2, 2019 11:33 am at 11:33 am #1722269
“Let me mirror back your words:
Problem with litvish/Yeshivish/Sefard/Yekka community is there is no rebbe so no direction.”
Come on… You and I both know you’re smart enough to know how nonsensical that comment is.
I don’t want to be accused of jumping over to the Chabad ship and taking part in censorship of all criticism, but people might ought to consider the recent news in regards to whether or not now is an appropriate time to keep the Chabad Wars going. All halachic points will have already been made on other threads. This PR debate I really don’t see the point of. Chabad has organized PR because they have to. Any kiruv place is going to have PR practices that some might see as deceptive; I don’t think Chabad’s are any worse than those of Litvish kiruv you just notice it more because Chabad does way more kiruv than anyone else.May 2, 2019 12:00 pm at 12:00 pm #1722260
I agree Lubavitche as PR.
But from where do you get the fact that the hired Rabbi Krinsky for PR?May 2, 2019 1:34 pm at 1:34 pm #1722313
The first ovdei zarah did not claim that, they claimed that hagen left the world in charge of the sun and the moon, very different than a tzaddik that Hashem put into the world in indeed to help us connect to Hashem.
Lubavitch needs pr because it is an organization, “litvish” is not an organizationMay 2, 2019 1:34 pm at 1:34 pm #1722314
Or ALSO an organizationMay 2, 2019 6:14 pm at 6:14 pm #1722492
they claimed that hagen left the world in charge of the sun and the moon, very different than a tzaddik that Hashem put into the world in indeed to help us connect to Hashem.
So you’re okay with ch”v davening to the sun and moon as a way to connect with Hashem?May 2, 2019 8:14 pm at 8:14 pm #1722514nameless2adegreeParticipant
I don’t know if what I am telling all of you in this forum, whether or not it is considered lashon hara, but out of necessity I feel it important to share.
Moshiakists within Lubavitch have brought about a stigma against them from other yidden who are not Lubavitchers. Although, not all Lubavitchers are Moshiakists. And, not all Chabad houses view the Rebbe as the Moshiach, either.
When the Rebbe was niftar, there was a family who wished to take over the helm and assume leadership (the Rebbe had no children), which caused a mochloikas. The rabbis decided to prevent a division and not appoint anyone to take over leadership.
I find that there is a wide range of feelings toward Lubavitch. From my experience, most will not consider their minyanim kosher. Reason being, many Chabad houses permit any man, Jew by birth, to daven with them and be counted part of the minyan and/or even if they do not keep Shabbos or other mitzvot (family purity, etc.). Some Chabad houses do not even have ten kosher yidden to make up the minyanim. In places where there are not enough men to make a minyan, the rabbis will call men he knows in the community to come to shul to make up the minyan (irregardless of whether or not they are married to goyim, do not keep Shabbos, etc.).
Since you cannot tell which Chabad house views R. Schneerson as the Moshiach, it is not advisable to daven at any Chabad house (unless you actually verify the rabbi is not a Moshiakist).
The Moshiakists are actively recruiting people to sign their name on documents that state their “declaration” that they believe R. M. M. Schneerson to be the Moshiach. I have seen it.
By the way, Chabadniks, their minhag is to not sleep in the sukkah.May 2, 2019 8:15 pm at 8:15 pm #1722519
Chossid: “But from where do you get the fact that the hired Rabbi Krinsky for PR?”
Yudel himself said something like that in a speech (“Reflections”) a few years ago to the Shluchos conference of 5774 (I tried to share the link earlier, but evidently the moderator didn’t let it through. It is in the beginning of the talk.)
Also, see the Wikipedia page of Reb Yudel (Yehudah Krinsky). There is more related info elsewhere online as well.May 2, 2019 8:16 pm at 8:16 pm #1722520
Neville: “Chabad has organized PR because they have to. ”
They have to maintain such a massive PR operation? Who is forcing them to do so?
What do Chazal say about why the luchos harishonos were destroyed again?
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