Differences between kashrus agencies ®🆚™

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  • #1321075

    Sadigurarebbe
    Participant

    Examples: attitude towards CY, what needs bishul yisroel, their method for bedikas toalim and the measures needed for each vegetable, when and where a mashigiach temidi is required, must the shochet have a beard, must the mashgiach etc.

    Please add more and feel free to discuss more differences or elaborate on each matter and if you know what agency holds what.

    Discuss away my precious yidden.

    Approving with reservation. Potentially interesting discussion, but can quickly go off the rails. Note that any descriptions of policy have not been independently verified, so readers beware.

    #1321101

    Joseph
    Participant

    Just make it simple and tell us which kashrus agency follows all stringencies and is kosher mehadrin l’chol hadeios.

    #1321097

    Gadolhadorah
    Participant

    There are such an infinite number of chumrahs and kallas in relation to hilchos kashrus that you will find substantial disagreement even among those who are considered machmir on just about everything else. Much of this has to do with regional/cultural preferences and minhagim dating back to the alte heim, where frequently the original rationale or basis for a particularly odd practice has been lost. I cannot think of another area of Halacha where the admonition of following the guidance of your local rav/posek is crucial. Many of us believe that absent such guidance, you can never go wrong with a top of the line chassideshe hashgacha (the “gold standard of kashrus”) although some might argue that there are fine Litvish hashgachos as well.

    #1321120

    “My father taught me that one schechts with one’s chalaf, not with one’s beard.”
    -R’ Yisrael Levovitz (son of the Mirrer Mashgiach, Reb Yerucham),
    as quoted in Lieutenant Birnbaum

    #1321091

    apushatayid
    Participant

    “must the shochet have a beard”

    The mechaber would say no. The 1st halacha in Yoreh Deah is “hakol kisherim lishchot, afilu nashim”, didnt see any nosei keilim that limit this to the bearded women one finds at boardwalk freak shows.

    #1321423

    iacisrmma
    Participant

    r4nd0m3x: Your quote from the book only makes sense if you tell why he made that comment. R’ Shraga Feivel Mendolowitz was asked to check out the “new” Empire plant in Pennsylvania. Out of courtesy, Rabbi Levovitz handed the “chalaf” to R’ Shraga for his inspection. He then asked Rabbi Levovitz to shecht 20 chickens and after the shechita reinspected the “chalaf”. He then asked that Rabbi Levovitz shecht 50 chickens. He complimented Rabbi Levovitz on how he handled the “chalaf”. R’ Shraga’s son asked if the shochet can be trusted to which he replied “I would fell better if he had a beard” to which Rabbi Levovitz replied “My father taught me that one schechts with one’s chalaf, not with one’s beard.” R’ Shraga laughed and told his son yes.

    Paraphrased from the book “Lieutenant Birnbaum”

    GadolH: You wrote: “you can never go wrong with a top of the line chassideshe hashgacha (the “gold standard of kashrus”)”

    Many would disagree with this comment. Chassideshe hashgachos may not be the ‘gold standard’ as you claim.

    #1321563

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Star-K uses a different name, Star-D, for cholov stam.

    The other national hechsherim allow it.

    #1321626

    When someone wants people to post whether hechsherim require their
    shochtim to have a beard, what additional context is needed for that quote?

    #1321648

    Sadigurarebbe
    Participant

    DY: I don’t think OK allows it, nor any of the other chassidishe national or otherwise hashgachas.

    #1321714

    CTLAWYER
    Participant

    @sadigurarebbe

    The OK absolutely certifies Chalov Stam products and uses the OK Dairy symbol.
    There are tons of cookies in their product list, both brand name (ex. Archway, Famous Amos) and Store Brands (sold by Stop and Shop, Aldi).

    #1321730

    Chaim Eliezer
    Participant

    The Lubavitcher Rebbe reportedly held that Yekkishe shochtim didn’t have to have a beard. This was important because Chabad used to rely on KAJ shechita.

    #1321753

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    I personally trust the $K more than any other hashghca, its the best Hashghca money can buy

    #1321875

    iacisrmma
    Participant

    CTL: I thought Archway was certified by the OU.

    #1321892

    apushatayid
    Participant

    Keebler.

    #1321907

    Gadolhadorah
    Participant

    Chazal bring down that it is always better when the Rav Hamachshir’s name on a product label or in the Tadudah for a restaurant or market, is not followed by Z’TL….. This is not meant to be humorous since too many time we see a Kashruth endorsement where the name provided fir the supervisory mashgiach is that of a Rav who was niftar sometimes months or even years earlier.

    #1321919

    kollelman
    Participant

    As “informed consumers” we should demand this. I wish there was a list of standards (website?) as OP suggests. Many hashgochas also rely on others. For example, most Chassidishe hashgochas cannot obtain basic chemical ingredients without relying on OU or Star-K who actually have Mashgichim on the ground in China and other countries around the world.

    Also, it irks me to no end that Yoshon is hardly even a back-seat issue, and requires an entire booklet with tons of research to be able to follow. Many hold it’s D’Oraisa, and just because others are lenient, it’s almost completely ignored. Agencies will put a D on a product just because the machine is not fully “kashered” between runs, yet is still clean. At the same time, they stand behind Chodosh products that many hold is Assur D’Oraisa! IMHO, that’s a massive joke!

    (And no, it’s no longer the case that most grain in USA is last years or older)

    #1321947

    Sadigurarebbe
    Participant

    @ctlawyer, sorry, yes you are correct. Nevertheless, according to their site they say “All dairy establishments are exclusively Cholov Yisroel.”, so now I wonder why the two standards?

    #1321945

    CTLAWYER
    Participant

    @iacisrmma
    A number of Archway cookies are listed on the OK website. It may be that they have multiple plants under different supervision producing different items

    #1322034

    iacisrmma
    Participant

    sadigrarebbe: Many items made by large companies have enough of a base besides kosher consumers that they do not have to use CY products, which generally are more costly. Kosher “establishments” are basically only relying on yidden as their base; to gain the largest number of customers one would need to be CY only.

    #1322071

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Nevertheless, according to their site they say “All dairy establishments are exclusively Cholov Yisroel.”, so now I wonder why the two standards?

    I was going to say maybe because in establishments (i.e. restaurants) the buyer can’t see what it is, and that the cost of ingredients is only a small percentage of their costs, but I like iasicrmma’s answer better.

    #1322067

    apushatayid
    Participant

    I thought it was the triple k.

    #1322079

    Sadigurarebbe
    Participant

    iacisrmma: See but that doesn’t quite add up because the OK is a chabad hechsher (Rabbi Levy), and according to the chabad people I know, Lubavtich doesn’t hold of Chalav Hacompanies. My chabad friend said it is not kosher for a chabad person (per their view). So why would a chabad Hashgacha do this? It doesn’t quite add up to me.

    #1322100

    ubiquitin
    Participant

    Kolelman

    ” wish there was a list of standards (website?) as OP suggests. ”
    start one!

    #1322147

    CTLAWYER
    Participant

    @Sadugare Rebbe
    I knew the ‘original’ Rabbi Levy “OBM” who founded OK Labs. He was from my home town of New Haven. He explained to me back in 1978 (when he came to our bakery in Hamden, CT to supervise a run of frozen Challah) that the Rebbe wanted all Jews to eat kosher. The Rebbe did not feel it was neccessary to extend Chabad chumras to the masses. Thus, they could supervise milchige cholav stam cookies that ordinary Jews would buy instead of then treif Oreos at the same price points in the general supermarkets.

    Similarly, in those days, before the Agriprocessors, local kosher meat production was mostly of non-glatt meat. Many a local rabbi who only ate glatt in his own home supervised local butcher, caterers, delis that sold ordinary kosher meat. The fact that it wasn’t glatt didn’t make it not-kosher.

    #1322158

    Joseph
    Participant

    The Rebbe’s shitta on non-Cholov Yisroel (i.e. what is called Cholov Stam) was that it was non-kosher; not that Cholov Yisroel is a “chumra”.

    #1322179

    iacisrmma
    Participant

    I do not know what the Rebbe’s personal shita was. I don’t agree that OK is a “chabad” hechsher even if Rabbi Levy was a member of chabad.

    #1322794

    Jersey Jew
    Participant

    Test

    #1324076

    ubiquitin
    Participant

    Kollelman
    “As “informed consumers” we should demand this. I wish there was a list of standards (website?) as OP suggests”

    At first I agreed, though now Im not so sure.
    There are amny machlokisism, and I think publicizing pesakim for people who dont know the detals of the issues involved can be confusing.

    If you go throuh a sugya or if you have a specific question then I’m fairly certain the hashgacha would be upfront with you. If you dont know then a list of their kulas/chumras might be little more than “hock”

    The reason Im not so sure, is that even the learned consumer “informed consumer” as you put it, might not know that say he assumes as a given that a pilot light doesnt satisfy bishul yisroel he assumes all agree and doesnt realize that the hashgacha decided differently.
    Though maybe thats his mistake for assuming.

    The point is, if you have a question the information is available by asking (if it isnt I agree it should be) IF you methadone a question, Im not sure the hashgacha has to volunteer all that information..

    Again though if you like hock, put together a website listing all the hashgachas positions on various issues I will keep an eye out

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