October 7, 2018 3:09 pm at 3:09 pm #1600070
Rashi (2:4) says that olam hazeh was created with a “hey” alluding to reshaim which fall in gehenom just as a “hey” is open on bottom. Olam Habba was created with a “yud” alluding to the minute amount of tzadikim who will make it there, just like a “yud” is small.
The mesillas yesahrim writes that the purpose of this world is to earn reward in the next world. Surely this seems quite contradictory: Hashem’s “thoughts” as he created this world were about gehenom, and as he created the next world, about how few people would be there.
I’d appreciate a good explanation. Thank you.October 7, 2018 8:14 pm at 8:14 pm #1600244
That gemora says in Menochos that the ‘hey’ has an opening on the side so that he should be able to return if he falls. if he does not return or repent, he will gain gehinom to cleans himself from his wrong doing. Everyone is rewarded according to intentions for doing mitzvos. The Rasha wants to be rewarded for his good deeds in this world, so he is, whereas the tzadik wants his reward in the next world. See Ramban Parshas Achrei on Asher Yaaseh Adam Vechai Bohem beginning VedaaOctober 7, 2018 8:54 pm at 8:54 pm #1600290☕️coffee addictParticipant
I also heard about the hey having a side open for the people who do teshuva if it wasn’t so hashem would have made it with a chesOctober 7, 2018 8:54 pm at 8:54 pm #1600293unomminParticipant
Darshaning the shape of the letters is emotionally fulfilling. However, it doesnt represent a halachic intellectual truth. Caveat emptor.October 7, 2018 11:08 pm at 11:08 pm #1600324
The gemora above says that he needs a new opening because to return and repent cannot be done in the same manner as he fell as he is used to his old ways and therefore a ches will not work.October 7, 2018 11:08 pm at 11:08 pm #1600332ahgutvurtParticipant
The author of mesilas yeharim the ramchal ,also states in his sefer Derech Hashem that the number of people who ” are actually annihilated will be small not great”. Perhaps the meaning of that Rashi is referring to the truly righteous tzadik gamur who will not need to be even purified first ?October 7, 2018 11:08 pm at 11:08 pm #1600333
unommin, the gemorah in tractate shabbos darshans the shape of letters which is halachically significant teaching us how to write letters for a sefer torah. If he makes a ches a hey or vice versa makes him mecharef umgadef.October 8, 2018 9:24 am at 9:24 am #1600451
Another note:admittedly, I haven’t learned mesilas yesharim insid, but that being said, I think you find the Rashi discouraging because you’re coverging two different levels together:
Meaning, (if I guess the context correctly), the mesilas yesharim is saying to focus on the pleasures and rewards of next world and make that the focus of our lives so we don’t get carried away by the temporary pleasures of this world and lose track of our mission and then be overwhelmingly embarrassed upstairs…
However that is helpful baby steps in Avodas Hashem because as pirkei avos says we shouldn’t be like those who serve the Master for reward but like those who don’t do it for reward.
Ie.this is a helpful train of thought when we are struggling with an immediate temptation so we don’t fall for it. But the end goal is not to be self servants focused on our own rewards but Hashem’s servants who ask ourselves what does He want from me? And internalise His desire for a G-dly world, as our own, and work to get there to do it for Him out of love and awe. When the focus isn’t on
self service, but on Hashem service, then the Rashi won’t be depressing
Another note: the Rashi may be referring to whoever enters gan Eden right away, which are those who don’t need to be scrubbed clean first in gehennom. The majority of us don’t fall into the truly righteous category and have some cleaning up to do before we can bask and enjoy the Shechina. However, if you are a frum Jew and do your best with the fall here and there, then the clean up isn’t so massive (the gemara gives a time limit I just forget if it’s 3, 9 or 12 months) and then you are free to enjoy the good you have created forever without the nasty reminder of the other stuff…October 8, 2018 9:25 am at 9:25 am #1600448
I’ve learned a maamar on gan Eden vs. Yemos
haMoshiach which are both termed Olam haba.
I’ll share the applicable nugget I remember happy to refer you further if desired…
Basically gan Eden rewards the neshama and personal perfection represented by the learning of Torah as Torah changes ones mindset and thereafter middos, and brings ultimate refinement to a person.That’s why not everyone gets there.
Moshiach rewards the body and refinement of the world, accomplished by the avoda of Maase hamitzvos. Since every yid does mitzvos, every yid (neshama at least there’s a whole other discussion regarding gilgulim) will be part and earn it. And it is even loftier than gan Eden which is why all the neshamos of the greatest people like the avos etc will leave gan Eden to have tchias hameisim and enjoy yemos hamoshiach.October 8, 2018 10:53 am at 10:53 am #1600594ToiParticipant
@unommin- Caveat emptor? Maybe you meant to post that on the fake techeiles thread?
@CS- Love how you never learnt one of the basic mussar texts and feel qualified to guess context correctly. Stick to your maamers and don’t share them with us misnagdim.October 8, 2018 11:45 am at 11:45 am #1600610
CS, There is an argument between the Rambam Hilchos Teshuva 8:2 and the Raavad what is the meaning of Olam Habo. The Rambam hoilds that Olam Habo is after life whereas the Raavad holds it is Techiyas Hamesim.October 8, 2018 2:38 pm at 2:38 pm #1600710anonymous JewParticipant
What I find fascinating about these discussions on the shapes of the letters is that our alphabet uses Aramaic letters . They were adopted during Galus Bavel. Prior to that, we used Paleo-Hebrew, which is shaped totally different. The Samaritans, who copied every we did, still write their ( tref ) sifrai torah in Paleo-hebrew which leads me to believe we dod too before the first churban.
Paleo-hebrew was still in use 2000 years ago as it appears on coins minted by Bar Cochba. The Aramaic script only appears after the first churban, only Paleo appears prior.October 8, 2018 4:09 pm at 4:09 pm #1600918
Why are you discouraged. Kul Yisroel Yesh Lahem chelek Liolam Habah.
Instead of being discouraged, you should endeavor to understand exactly what the gemara in Menachos that is alluded to means.October 8, 2018 5:27 pm at 5:27 pm #1600975☕️coffee addictParticipant
I don’t think that’s true,
The Gemara doesn’t mention ayin as something that in the luchos that the inside was suspended in midairOctober 8, 2018 8:49 pm at 8:49 pm #1601028
The mahrsha suggests that the woed “muatin” doesnt refer to quantity, rather it refers to “makubg thenselves small” (humble) in which case nothing discouraging at all about Rashi or the gemara its based on (although Mahrsha agrees the simple meaning is “few”.
The peh (final) and samech are the letters that were miraculously “suspended” in luchos.October 8, 2018 11:59 pm at 11:59 pm #1601078
Laskern, rashi doesn’t bring that part of the gemara; it would seem he holds that for “pashut pshat” of the pasuk it’s not necessary. Additionally, the gemara itself seems to put the focus on gehenom and not teshuva: if the “hey” alluded to the fact that Hashem created the world with mercy and instilled teshuva, that would be understandable. But when the gemara puts the emphasis on gehenom, with a side point that it’s possible to do teshuva, it’s not so much more encouraging.
An underlying difficulty I have is that if the mesillas yesharim is correct, then why is the world so prone to bad and not good? If the entire point is to get sechar, why is it that “noach lo leadam shelo nivra”–why did Hashem not make it that it would be easier to get gan eden than gehenom? Why is it that those who get saved from gehenom are one in many, and those that make it to gan eden are the minority?October 9, 2018 12:00 am at 12:00 am #1601080
Side point: the ram ban in Iyov says that it’s better to have all the yissurim in olam hazeh than to have any small amount of gehenom. Is that not discouraging? Does that sound like a benevolent world rather than a harsh world?October 9, 2018 9:04 am at 9:04 am #1601204
The tzadikim, realizing that this world is temporary, are given what they desire. They want to be cleansed through yissurim in this world for their sins to be saved from the gehenom, and the rashaim are given their desire. They are rewarded for their good deeds in this world because they want instant gratification and they don’t belief in after life.October 9, 2018 10:58 am at 10:58 am #1601220
The answer lies in what was told to Kayin Bereishis 4:7, If you do good, they will elevate you, but if you don’t do good, you are lying at the door of punishment for your sins, your sins bring you to other sins and eventually he, the yetzer hora, will rule over you.October 9, 2018 10:58 am at 10:58 am #1601224
apashitatyid, The samech and mem where suspended because the Torah can be sam chaim or vice versaOctober 9, 2018 10:58 am at 10:58 am #1601227
“Is that not discouraging?”
Taken out of context, it surely is.October 9, 2018 10:58 am at 10:58 am #1601228
” Does that sound like a benevolent world rather than a harsh world?”
Neither.October 9, 2018 10:59 am at 10:59 am #1601231
“Hashem’s “thoughts” as he created this world were about gehenom”
Actually, it was about teshuva. Rashi clearly states, several times, Hashem mixed in the attribute of rachamim into the creation. Hashem is not out to get you.October 9, 2018 11:00 am at 11:00 am #1601233
Rashi on the daf, menachos (29b) is clear that the rasha has a choice, and is free to “leave”, it isnt open so that people should fall out. Why are you discouraged that you have a choice? I find that rather encouraging.October 10, 2018 2:25 pm at 2:25 pm #1603256
@laskern, what does that rashi by Kayin have anything to do with this?
@a pashute yid, please refer to my second post on this thread.
I fail to see how I took it out of context.
And please answer this rashi, instead of referring me to others, unless the others shed light on this one. Which it doesn’t.October 10, 2018 3:04 pm at 3:04 pm #1603270
Not Rashi by Kayin but the pasuk itself tells how good and bad behavior are dealt with, and your Rashi above, even though not mentioned, has to the refer to the opening in the hey otherwise a ches would also suffice. The GRA explains that on Pesach chametz is assur bemashehu because the difference between chametz, the yetzer horah, and matzoh, the yetzer tov is only that mashehu, the opening on the hey. If we don’t watch matzoh carefully, it becomes chametz. That is what we say Ha Lachmo Anya, the hey makes it a lachma anya.October 15, 2018 3:27 am at 3:27 am #1604516
I heard or saw somewhere that “Noach lo la’adam shelo nivra” refers to reincarnating,
not to a person’s initial descent into this world.October 15, 2018 1:30 pm at 1:30 pm #1604795
Rand0m3x – You know the Mehrsho at the end of Makus says on this that they counted the number of commandments and found that there are 365 negative commandments which gets done automatically by just not violating it, but 248 positive commandments which must be done physically. Therefore you accomplish more by not being born and doing anything than being born. If he does teshuva from love, he can convert his negative violations to positive commandments and thereby having more positive commandment making being born more worthy.October 15, 2018 2:51 pm at 2:51 pm #1604806
The above about teshuva from love is yefashfesh bemasov. If yemashmesh bemasov, when he has the proper machshovo when doing positive commandments מחשבה טובה הקב’ה מצרפה למעשה, the machshvos are also figured as mitzvos and he doubles the positive mitzvos to 496 which is more than 365 and becomes better to be born than not.October 15, 2018 2:57 pm at 2:57 pm #1604843
The Masilat Yesharim is saying that the very purpose for which man was created is pleasure and the place for experiencing pleasure in the most perfect way is in olam haba. This is not just “baby steps”, according to RAMCHAL it is the very tachlis of the whole project. Please do not try to read Chabbad Chassidus into RAMCHAL.October 15, 2018 3:28 pm at 3:28 pm #1604859
@ anonymous jew
“our alphabet uses Aramaic letters”
False. There is no evidence that Ksav Ashuri was used by gentiles in Aram (or anywhere else). The Gemara gives a different reason for the name. So this statement is not supported by archeological or Talmudic evidence.
“They were adopted during Galus Bavel.”
What you mean to say is adopted by Ezrah at the end of Galus Bavel
There is a 3 way disagreement among the Tannaim regarding Ksav Ashuri. The above statement may be true according to R’ Yossi, however
1) The Geonim who appear to understand R’ Yossi that way write that the Halacha is not like him
2) The Ritva and Ridbaz write that even R Yossi agrees that Ksav Ashuri goes back to the time of Matan Torah
Central to the whole discussion is a Yerushalmi that states the the Ayin in the Luchos was supported miraculously. The Bavli says it was the Samach and the Ritva disregards this Yerushalmi. The Ridbaz distinguished between the 1st and 2nd Luchos. The Yaevitz learns that even the Yerushalmi is using the familiar Ksav as a mashal to explain the nes and isn’t meant historically.
Prior to that, we used Paleo-Hebrew, which is shaped totally different.
This is TBI (true but irrelevant). We used Yiddish in Europe, and all the seforim where written in Lashon Kadosh
“The Samaritans, who copied every we did, still write their ( tref ) sifrai torah in Paleo-hebrew which leads me to believe we did too before the first churban.”
It might be that during the 1st Beis HaMikdash writing Sifrai Torah in Ksav Ivri (Paleo Hebrew) was permitted. This has no bearing on the antiquity of Ksav Ashuri.
“Paleo-hebrew was still in use 2000 years ago as it appears on coins minted by Bar Cochba…”
Once again, TBIOctober 15, 2018 3:43 pm at 3:43 pm #1604872
@ square root of 2
“An underlying difficulty I have is that if the mesillas yesharim is correct, then why is the world so prone to bad and not good? If the entire point is to get sechar, why is it that “noach lo leadam shelo nivra”–why did Hashem not make it that it would be easier to get gan eden than gehenom?”
This is an excellent question. So excellent in fact that the RAMCHAL made it the primary subject of a whole sefer which he wrote called Daat Tvunos.
“Why is it that those who get saved from gehenom are one in many, and those that make it to gan eden are the minority”
As someone already pointed out above getting saved from gehenom is one thing making it to Olam Haba is another.October 15, 2018 5:55 pm at 5:55 pm #1605144
CS did not say that that wasn’t the purpose of man’s creation,
only that it isn’t meant to be his motivation, which is correct.
Meaning, (if I guess the context correctly)
All the OP had quoted was “the purpose of this world is to earn reward in the next world.” Your guess about the context seems to me to be a strange assumption to make (although the Mesillas Yeshorim does discuss next-worldly reward as a motivation and lishma/shelo lishma elsewhere in the sefer).October 15, 2018 8:05 pm at 8:05 pm #1605175philosopherParticipant
Anonymous, just as we the Loshen HaKodesh handwritten script today which is different than the Square Script (Ksav Ashirus) we use for klei kodesh , so too was Paleo-Hebrew, which was the script used by the Yisroeilim as an everyday, easy, simple cursive script that was easily engraved in clay and stone, used at the time. The fact that they wrote in Paleo-Hebrew does not mean the Torah wasn’t given in Square Hebrew Script and that also doesn’t prove that the Torahs and mezuzos written during the First Bais Hamikdosh were not in Square Script .
The term Ksav “Ashirus” is misleading just as “Yiddish” is derived from very little “Yiddishe” (Hebrew) words, mainly it’s Old German, Slavic, and local languages where Yiddishe is spoken, so it’s original roots are not so Yiddish. In the same way, Ksav Ashirus was not adopted from the Assyrians, rather they adopted the Loshen Hakodesh script from us.October 15, 2018 11:55 pm at 11:55 pm #1605240
If we interpret “Yiddish” as referring to those who speak it,
it’s suddenly a lot less misleading.October 16, 2018 12:57 am at 12:57 am #1605243philosopherParticipant
It is clearly written in numerous sources in the Torah, Nach, Midrashim, meforshim, etc. that Hashem wants us to do good and if we listen to His Words He will bentch us in this world and we will earn Olam Haba in the next. As it says in Pirkei Avos: kol Yisroel yesh luhem chelek l’Olam Haba.
We were created to fufill our potential by doing good and we will get reward for it. And if we mess up there’s always the way to return with teshuva and our sins are forgiven.
Clearly, Hashem had in mind that we should benefit from the creation of the universe, not that we should rot in hell. I’m sure there are explanations for this particular Rasha.October 16, 2018 7:27 am at 7:27 am #1605307
“The Masilat Yesharim is saying that the very purpose for which man was created is pleasure and the place for experiencing pleasure in the most perfect way is in olam haba. ”
Aha thanks for context. So then this could be answered by Olam haba referring to olam hatechiya as elaborated above where we’ll all have the ultimate of pleasure as it says kol Yisrael… Yes?October 16, 2018 7:28 am at 7:28 am #1605308
Someone mentioned noach lo ladam shelo nivra. When I was younger and had time to contemplate (mothers are constantly constantly distracted) I spent a few days contemplating if I would have been better off being created as the door in my school. After all, it absorbs Torah and can’t do anything wrong. It just stands there and gets pushed open and everyone is happy with it.
Meanwhile us people have the questionably enviable position that every single action we take affects all the worlds above us and also this world. We either cause tremendous damage or bring life force down to the worlds with every action we casually commit. The malachim who are aware of the power of our every action – they shake with fear, but meanwhile were just oblivious. And we have to be oblivious or we wouldn’t move for fear of the destruction we might wreak.
Then we get to face it all Upstairs.
So, maybe I would be better off being a door…
That was my contemplation for several days. If you’re curious I’ll post my conclusion
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