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So much of this debate, both in the U.S. and EY, is framed as a binary choice where the only two options are the far-left, woke liberals who embrace every extreme toevah and the so-called “torah-true” yidden who reject any compromise on matters of hashkafah and reject the YU/REITS/MO etc. segments of the tzibur.
That is not, and never has been, the reality of Jewish observance in the current generation, going back to yiddeshkeit in the Alte Heim, or even generations earlier. There can be coexistence without compromising individual values and hashkafah.
Gadolhadorah – “So much of this debate, both in the U.S. and EY, is framed as a binary choice where the only two options are the far-left, woke liberals who embrace every extreme toevah and the so-called “torah-true” yidden who reject any compromise on matters of hashkafah and reject the YU/REITS/MO etc. segments of the tzibur.”
I don’t know if you are referring to my posts, but if you are, my point was not to judge the MO/YU etc. My point was, that sooner or later, the MO world who want to be honest with themselves and with the Ribbono Shel Olam (I believe most are, certainly within the RIETS orbit), will THEMSELVES have to make a ‘binary choice’ between a goyish velt that increasingly brooks no compromise on THEIR ‘hashkafah’, and some sort of real Torah hashkafah. Stretching that term as wide as possible still can’t accommodate LGBTQXYZ_who_knows_what_next+++, and not accommodating the flavor-of-the-month will get you ‘cancelled’ professionally and academically. They will not be able to have their ‘modern’ cake and eat it.
There can be coexistence without compromising individual values and hashkafah.
Sure there can be. IMHO, the reason there is less than there could be is simply because in big cities each individual community is big enough to do their own thing with little interaction with others. That also affords the luxury of circling the wagons and criticizing others… In out-of-town settings you do see much more cooperation.
YYA > How would one do that?
From your description, I think you are doing your part, this is great. I don’t think you should feel that existence of anti-religious extremists is a sign that you are not doing the right thing, the question is how “average” people see it. And, as Gadol mentions, it should work both ways: your depiction of “modern” institutions is also in the extreme. I am sure all problems you describe exist and people who choose jobs should look carefully what they are selecting. I, for example, deal mostly with technology and the end result of the technology aligns well with what I think Torah wants from us and 23 genders are not relevant. I also run my own business so I don’t have to depend on someone else’s value judgment (idea picked up from one of my Teachers from Baltimore who publicly said that he does not want to join his mossad with a bigger one – whose rep was sitting right nearby). But if we are talking of the essence – using chochma, I don’t think academic craziness should be of concern – as long as you know how to filter information out (or someone can do it for you). Try mussar & mikvah from Steipler’s advise. Rambam used Muslim philosophy and science – but he also ran away from Spain when crazy Muslim were in charge.
YaakovYosef: ““Yes, we believe in God Almighty the Creator who created only two genders,”
I suppose you are referring to זכר ונקבה ברא אותם. What about טומטום ואנדרוגנוס which are discussed in Shulchan Aruch?the sugya of tinok shenishba should never dull our rejection of kefira.
I personally know a number of seemingly sincere and otherwise very frum students of R”Z, from students of Kook shr”y (Merkaz Harav [sic]) to hilltop settlers. And none of their external sincerity takes away from the reality that their rebellion against Heaven is a greater danger to Yidden much muchmore than anything a decrepit rusheh like Rabin or Netanyahu shr”y could do.
Uncle Ben – אין הכי נמי, for the one-in-many-thousands of people born with PHYSICALLY ambiguous features there are Halachic guidelines what to do… That is not the same as MENTALLY disturbed people making up their gender as they go along, and imposing on the rest of the world to go along with them…
AAQ – “But if we are talking of the essence – using chochma, I don’t think academic craziness should be of concern – as long as you know how to filter information out (or someone can do it for you)”
I think we agree in practice, but we define the term ‘Modern’ somewhat differently. “Using chochma” per se does not make one ‘modern’. There are plenty of professionals etc. who fully identify as Chareidi. What makes one ‘Modern’ (at least YU style) is seeing secular knowledge as an IDEAL – לשמה. This also extends to secular knowledge which isn’t simply dry technical know-how, i.e. literature, philosophy, ‘humanities’, etc. which contain VALUES. There is a world of difference between the two approaches. Most important, those who see secular knowledge and philosophy etc. as an ideal also tend to seek approval from (and ape) the secular world that they admire… How many MO do you know study (for example) Hindu literature and try to ‘reconcile’ Torah with that? So why is Western philosophy inherently any better? At least the Hindus believe SOMETHING created the Universe…
My point was, Western philosophy and ‘hashkafah’ is deteriorating at a pace that IMHO will soon leave no room for a sincere Yid of any flavor to IDENTIFY WITH AND ADMIRE it, or even BE ACCEPTED by it in anything more than a basic business-like fashion. In other words, MO who are ehrlich בין אדם למקום will eventually find themselves sort of Chareidim by default…
YYA > to make a ‘binary choice’ between a goyish velt that increasingly brooks no compromise on THEIR ‘hashkafah’, and some sort of real Torah hashkafah. Stretching that term as wide as possible still can’t accommodate LGBTQXYZ_who_knows_what_next+++, and not accommodating the flavor-of-the-month will get you ‘cancelled’ professionally and academically.
This is again picturing the other side as the extreme, something you reasonably complained about when others look at you. Just nudge your community to accept modernity to the extent R Twersky did – and respect others that do – and let’s talk then.
There can be coexistence without compromising individual values and hashkafah.
Sure there can be. IMHO, the reason there is less than there could be is simply because in big cities each individual community is big enough to do their own thing with little interaction with others. That also affords the luxury of circling the wagons and criticizing others… In out-of-town settings you do see much more cooperation.
AAQ – “This is again picturing the other side as the extreme”
Please read carefully: To make a ‘binary choice’ between a GOYISH VELT that increasingly brooks no compromise on THEIR ‘hashkafah’, and some sort of real Torah hashkafah. Stretching that term as wide as possible still can’t accommodate LGBTQXYZ_who_knows_what_next+++, and not accommodating the flavor-of-the-month will get you ‘cancelled’ professionally and academically.
I.e. – When I said ‘Goyish Velt’ I meant literal ‘Goyim’, not ח״ו any Jew of any sort. And yes, the ‘goyish velt’ REALLY IS extreme. If you are aware of what is going on today on college campuses etc. it is EXTREME. My only point (which I spelled out multiple times already) was that in the eyes of today’s Progressive Post-Modern 400 gender Goyish velt, even YU are ultra-right-wing extremists, no less than me (and probably you, for that matter…) IMHO, this is going in a direction that will eventually leave the more serious MO “Chareidi by default”. Sort of ‘we didn’t leave Modernity, Modernity left us’…
Just nudge your community to accept modernity to the extent R Twersky did.
Rav Twersky himself, in his books, pointed out that in his day college campuses were very different than what they have become today (he wrote that about 30 years ago…) In his day, the main challenge was from Kefirah, and he avoided that by going to a Catholic college IIRC… Nowadays (again, writing in the mid 90s…) the biggest issue on campus is פריצות, which is a more difficult challenge for most people. It’s true that since he wrote that new options have opened geared specifically for observant Jews, but those who insist on only the most prestigious degree from a regular university cannot hang their hat on Rav Twersky… He also never self-identified as ‘Modern’ in terms of מדע לשמה… He knew and used whatever he needed to do his job and help people, even if that was a lot, and that’s it… Everything else about his lifestyle, family, חינוך of his own children, etc. was 100% heimish.
and respect others that do – and let’s talk then.
I mentioned previously my respect for Reb Yoshe Ber z”l and some of his talmidim… I am aware of his hashkafah, and I don’t see that as an automatic סתירה to respect. I do wonder what his take would be on Post-Modernism and where it’s going today, as well as this idea of mine about MO eventually facing a crossroads that will force them to define who they really are. He probably would write something with a title like “Halachic Man and the Rupture of Modernity in a Post-Modern World”…
Never forget – everyone here has at least 613 things that we all can agree on… And we will all celebrate that in a week and a half from now…
a couple of relevant quotes from Rav Soloveitchik about modernity. How is this affected by crazies on campuses?
We have always considered ourselves to be an inseparable part of humanity and we were ever ready to accept the divine challenge, Fill the earth and subdue it (Gen. 1:28). We have never proclaimed the philosophy of contemptus or odium seculi [rejection of the secular world]. We have steadily
maintained that involvement in the creative scheme of things is mandatory.Men of old who could not fight disease and succumbed in multitudes to yellow fever or any other plague with degrading helplessness could not lay claim to dignity. Only the man who builds hospitals, discovers therapeutic techniques, and saves lives is blessed with dignity . . . The brute is helpless, and therefore not dignified. Civilized man has gained limited control of nature and has become in certain respects her master, and with his mastery he has .attained dignity as well. His mastery has made it possible for him to act in accordance with his responsibility.
YYA, when you are talking about philosophy, I won’t argue much with that. I am not pro or contra. As I said, I’d be happy to see Jewish community absorb first non-controversial ideas of modernity while arguing about philosophy. R Twersky suggests in some speech that yeshiva bochrim should learn physiology to appreciate maase Hashem, and then adds – doesn’t have to be at school, do it after school. Realistically speaking, if we want community to absorb ideas, it got to be in school or some other institutions.
The reason to learn from Western civilization v. Hindu is pretty simple – Western civilization is tremendously successful in the last several hundred years changing lives of billions of people. We all use fruits of that.
I stumbled upon a retelling of Alter Rebbe and his son story by R Sacks. He put the ending the way I was trying to 🙂
“My son, I do not know what you are studying, but it is not the study of Torah if it makes you deaf to the cry of a child.”that is, if “learning” creates misplaced priorities – it is not the right “learning”.
YYA> t’s true that since he wrote that new options have opened geared specifically for observant Jews, but those who insist on only the most prestigious degree from a regular university cannot hang their hat on Rav Twersky…
These are gain extremes – Most “observant” options are, as they say, “a good start”, but usually give very minimal education. They are often overpriced 3rd rated colleges or online “diploma mills” that do not teach anything. Again, they are a realistic way forward for many. I agree on “top universities” especially in humanities. But there are other options:
– solid online colleges that teach as 2nd (not 3rd) rate programs, equivalent to what they teach “in person”.
– local, again 2nd rate/state colleges where kids live at home
– evening programs at 2nd and even 1st rate local colleges, where students are often older people
– YU (combined with 1+ first year of the above)> He also never self-identified as ‘Modern’ in terms of מדע לשמה… He knew and used whatever he needed to do his job and help people, even if that was a lot, and that’s it…
There is probably truth to that, but his choice to work primarily with religious Christians is “interesting”. He somehow found it meaningful to spend years fixing minds of priests and nuns. I don’t think this was just “for a parnosah”.
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