March 10, 2011 8:23 pm at 8:23 pm #763062
In America right now most couples are forced to work to provide for their families, why are Frum Jews different?
Jews are supposed to be different. We never should go by how “most” people in society do things.March 10, 2011 8:32 pm at 8:32 pm #763063
Grandmaster – True when it’s for benefit, but if it causes Sholom Bayis problems then we can learn from the rest of society!March 10, 2011 8:34 pm at 8:34 pm #763064
Health – I take strong exception to the thought that two working spouses increases Shalom Bayis!March 10, 2011 8:46 pm at 8:46 pm #763065
Grandmaster: that’s when she hasn’t pick her standard-of’iving from “most” peopleMarch 11, 2011 1:36 am at 1:36 am #763066aries2756Participant
Health, unless a husband is willing to share 1/2 the responsibilities in the home he should never expect his wife to share half of the responsibilities in regard to the finances. If they share they should share everything. A husband cannot and should not expect their wives to be superwomen who can and should do it all. This unfortunately is the case in most situations and although there are many men here on this blog who are very caring and appreciative of their wives, it is not the norm.
Furthermore, when you try to do it all something eventually has got to give and in many cases that ends in depression, crashing in some way, choosing career over family where a women feels most appreciated, or any number of other issues. Believe me I tried it. In my case it manifested into many physical and medical issues. My surgeon told me (just as an example) “women were designed to carry babies, men were designed to carry everything else”. I use this just as an example that WE can’t do it all even though we would like to believe that we can. Although WE do wear many hats and some points we have to shut off the music and decide which hat we truly want to wear and who we really want to be.March 11, 2011 3:34 am at 3:34 am #763067
Aries – Yes and the husband should should share equally in responsibilities. There is no such thing as this is my responsibility and I’m not doing anything else. Eg.- The family needs $500 a week and the husband can only bring in $400, the wife has to bring in the other $100. The same would be if the husband can only make $250 and so on. Being in a relationship, everything is SHARED. Just the arrangement could be that the husband provides the income and the wife is the homemaker, or it could be the other way around like “Mr. Mom”. Or it could be any combination, as long as everything that needs to be accomplished -is!March 11, 2011 3:39 am at 3:39 am #763068
GM – “Health – I take strong exception to the thought that two working spouses increases Shalom Bayis!”
If there is enough money in the household from one salary, then I tend to agree with you. Nowadays, one salary is usually not enough to cover the basics, so the spouse has to pitch in. The biggest cause of Sholom Bayis problems is lack of money!March 11, 2011 2:54 pm at 2:54 pm #763069
Just because there is a good valid reason for divorce, doesn’t make either spouse automatically blameless. Sometimes, two lovely people bring out the worst in each other and can’t make their marriage work, even after trying.
Every person brings baggage to a marriage (first or 31st). If the baggage you brought to marriage contributed to problems in the marriage, and you don’t fix the problem, then even if you marry someone else, the problem is still there. It may not be a problem with the next person, or it might.
Also, if a woman is abused by her first husband, she may be blameless in divorce, but if she doesn’t take care of herself (usually involving therapy), she may have problems in her next marriage. Either becoming a “victim” or becoming so sensitive to abuse that she will attack her husband at the slightest thing and call abuse. Granted, I’m slightly exaggerating, but you still need to take care of your baggage to make the possibility of a healthy marriage truly work.March 11, 2011 3:56 pm at 3:56 pm #763070
Thanks for responding. I agree with you that sometimes marriages stop functioning, requiring further action. However, if a party is not blameless, they’ll be much better off if they fix themselves prior to divorcing, even if they feel it’ll never suffice, due to the other spouses.. Divorcing prior to doing everything a person can is ill-advised and sounds irrisponsible.
If they do opt for the divorce, it may very well be that irrisponsibily that propels the next one, R”L. Oh, and some of that “abuse-phobia” is so part of society, that it may very well be the story of the first time. And they fix their load prior to divorcing, who says they’ll ever need luggage, maybe they won’t end indivorce!March 11, 2011 8:02 pm at 8:02 pm #763071
Sometimes, its impossible to fix while in the situation. Sometimes, the partners bring out the worst in each other. A friend of mine who divorced from her first husband told me that aside from the regular marital issues they had, they brought out the worst in each other. They fed off of each other’s frustration in bad ways.
After their divorce, they were able to truly get the help they each needed. She has moved and and is happily married. He still needs to work on his issues and has not found someone.March 11, 2011 8:50 pm at 8:50 pm #763072
SJS: How are you so intimately familiar that you can say “He still needs to work on his issues”? Surely that ‘knowledge’ isn’t influenced or biased by your friend who is his ex-wife?March 11, 2011 9:45 pm at 9:45 pm #763073
Grandmaster, he’s still an alcoholic and has trouble dealing with this. Yes, I believe his ex-wife who has no animosity towards him.March 12, 2011 6:10 pm at 6:10 pm #763074
is that really true – that the biggest cause of shalom bayis problems is lack of money?
if i would guess, i would say bad middos.March 12, 2011 6:15 pm at 6:15 pm #763075
aries – i totally agree with you about very few women, if any, can be superwomen!!! and if someone decides to attempt it, it should be because they want to do so and not due to societal pressures, and she should stop when she decides to.March 12, 2011 6:20 pm at 6:20 pm #763076
truthbetold: it definitely makes sense to work on oneself in first marriage. worst that can happen – can change whole marriage and turn it to a great marriage (oh? did i say worst? i mean best!)
and fact that 2 people may bring out each other’s worst doesn’t mean a thing – if both work on themselves, they may change to bring out each other’s best.March 13, 2011 1:23 am at 1:23 am #763077
I strongly agree with you.
Sometimes, its impossible to fix while in the situation. Sometimes, the partners bring out the worst in each other. …They fed off of each other’s frustration in bad ways.
Gut VochMarch 13, 2011 5:19 pm at 5:19 pm #763078
binahyeseira – “is that really true – that the biggest cause of shalom bayis problems is lack of money?
if i would guess, i would say bad middos.”
Bad middos is the cause of almost every problem. The middah of not being Someach B’chelko is the main cause of lack of Sholom Bayis!March 13, 2011 5:42 pm at 5:42 pm #763079
okay. then i’m fine with what you wrote – though i still would suggest that their inability to discuss the problem rationally would also be a source of the problem.March 13, 2011 5:57 pm at 5:57 pm #763080
binahyeseira – A person who isn’t Someach B’chelko and who thinks “Allas Koomt Em”, won’t be able to see this on your level. Both the husband and wife are on different wavelengths!March 14, 2011 1:07 pm at 1:07 pm #763081
In many cases its possible to work on the individual while in the marriage. Some situations are toxic to the spouses and they need to leave to work on it. Sometimes one spouse can fix the problem but the other can’t. There are many variables.
As to money being one of the biggest stressors in marriage – how can it not be? I’m not talking about luxury, but when you can’t pay your basic bills, how can parents not be stressed out trying to figure out ways to earn more money to pay their basic bills? Life is expensive. That’s not bad middos – its wanting to avoid living off of tzedaka!March 14, 2011 2:20 pm at 2:20 pm #763082
SJSinNY: I cannot see any logic behind that claim. Divorce now and fix later doesn’t make any sense to me, if marriage is a serious deal. Do you throw out a bike first, then learn how to ride, then buy a new bike?
Yes, learn how to ride better, but don’t throw out the bike in order to buy a new one. How can there be an honest assesment of the bike if one doesn’t know how to ride properly?
The marriage is the ride, the spouse is the rider. Don’t throw out the “faulty” bike/marriage prior to learning how to ride/behave married. The new bike doesn’t help, iff it’s the rider who is “broken”. Yes, riding while not knowing how to ride is toxic. Throwing out the bike is not even a band-aid!March 14, 2011 3:52 pm at 3:52 pm #763083
Sometimes, the bike is the wrong fit. It may be too small or too large. Sometimes, you have to get a new bike to learn to ride properly.
Many marriages can be fixed from within, but not all. Especially if there is a loss of trust.March 14, 2011 4:08 pm at 4:08 pm #763084
Only way to properly asses whether the bike is the wrong size, whether adjustments can be made, is learning how to ride first.
True, that sometimes divorce can be needed, buts far and few in between. A fraction of our divorce rateMay 1, 2011 2:20 am at 2:20 am #763085
Not being perfect doesn’t kill a marriage.
Relentlessly abusing someone for not being perfect does kill a marriage.As does slavery and neglect.
Which WOMAN begs to be released from a marriage with children “just to find Mr. Perfect”??
Why do people assume she didn’t try EVERY KNOWN METHOD to be able to repair or at least survive the marriage?
A lot of us,though VERY GRATEFUL TO HASHEM for being freed, are SCARED to trust again.
Others are so lonely they GO BACK INTO THE ABUSE.
The amount of MISjudging a divorcee must endure constantly is unreal.May 1, 2011 3:25 am at 3:25 am #763086s2021Member
eclipse ur posts r very validating, thank uMay 1, 2011 3:57 am at 3:57 am #763087
anytime,s2021!:)May 1, 2011 4:10 am at 4:10 am #763088ShrekMember
husbands and wives can grow apart. they once wanted the same things, now they don’t. they no longer respect or eacher. they no longer enjoy each other’s company. they get on each other’s nerves. the kids sense the tension. tried marriage counseling, but the root of the problem really can’t be fixed. should they stay together and make each other unhappy? why?May 1, 2011 4:12 am at 4:12 am #763089
…and that’s the MILD end of the spectrum.May 1, 2011 5:44 am at 5:44 am #763095ZeesKiteParticipant
s2021: Zees ones!!!
Let EVERYONE have a ZEESE, good voch. Life, happiness, fulfillment, PEACE, serenity. And that is my final say on the matter.May 2, 2011 7:32 pm at 7:32 pm #763126shlishiMember
Shrek: We are Jewish and Judaism has regulations when a divorce may be demanded and when a divorce may not be demanded. One is not automatically entitled to demand a divorce, under halacha, because they feel unhappy.May 2, 2011 8:04 pm at 8:04 pm #763127ShrekMember
Shlishi, the word “demand” was not used in any of my posts.
what is your point? there are plenty of things that Judaism doesn’t “demand”. but people can still still CHOOSE to do them, as long as they are acting within the realm of halacha.
Judaism doesn’t “demand” that people stay married until the end of time. That’s a different religion.
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