July 21, 2011 5:22 pm at 5:22 pm #1200078oomisParticipant
You should ask a snails if a marriage begun in such a wrong way should be allowed to continue.July 21, 2011 5:51 pm at 5:51 pm #1200079a maminParticipant
I’ve found this thread to be quite amazing. Some excellent points were made. Though I must tell you from a family members example: Not always does going for help, help. there are so many people out there calling themselves “Therapists” without any license of any sort.It seems to be a very good going parnassah right now UNFORTUNATELY! The problem is alot of them DO NOT help the situation, only make it worse! Please make sure when you seek help that you are seeing the right person.Referrrals from Rabbonim that know you personally should be helpful.July 21, 2011 6:28 pm at 6:28 pm #1200080
adorable -“I know another single guy who doesnt either want to get married- same reason”
I don’t have these hang ups. I want to remarry!July 21, 2011 10:31 pm at 10:31 pm #1200081
health, now that’s a healthy attitude 🙂 Halavai should meet your bashert and get the happily ever after that I’m sure you deserve soon!July 21, 2011 11:21 pm at 11:21 pm #1200082mosheroseMember
I asked my Rav about sneezing. He said it’s not a problem. Now you ask about whether or not your allowed to stay with your wife because you started the relationship in such a tumahdik way.July 22, 2011 5:07 am at 5:07 am #1200083
I asked my Rav about sneezing. He said it’s not a problem.
Your rav must be a big meikil. Time to get a new rav.July 22, 2011 3:31 pm at 3:31 pm #1200084WolfishMusingsParticipant
Now you ask about whether or not your allowed to stay with your wife because you started the relationship in such a tumahdik way.
Because you were silly enough to ask a silly sha’aila, does not require me to do so.
The WolfJuly 22, 2011 3:43 pm at 3:43 pm #1200085adorableParticipant
wolf- could not have said it better myself. mosherose- what did you ask about sneezing? when you should sneeze? I hope you give your rav a nice gift every year for having to put up with you.
Health- good for you but I know way too many single guys who just cant find the girl whos going to fit into their perfect little life….I know someone who really wants to remarry and has dated over 100 girls but hes still single…..July 24, 2011 5:02 am at 5:02 am #1200086
adorable – “I know someone who really wants to remarry and has dated over 100 girls but hes still single.”
Did it ever occur to you -maybe there is a reason this guy is divorced?July 24, 2011 7:44 am at 7:44 am #1200087m in IsraelMember
Shlishi “As far as information, you must always ask a shaila before giving any negative information.”
You must also always ask a shaila before WITHHOLDING any negative information. There are situations where one has a chiyuv to tell over information with regard to a shidduch, and situations where it is assur. There is no such thing as to err on the side of caution — you must always ask a shaila.
Although I certainly don’t think it is the “main” cause of divorce, there is a definite number of divorces that occur when information that should have been told before the marriage was withheld and only came out afterwards. (This is particularly true with “quick” divorces.) Had this information been known, the marriage would not have taken place, and obviously neither would the divorce. (I have first hand knowledge of two such cases, one where the divorce took place about 7 weeks after the marriage with the full encouragement of Daas Torah, and the other which took place a few months after the marriage, with the added tzaar of a child on the way. . .)July 24, 2011 10:03 am at 10:03 am #1200088morah reynaMember
I just heard a Rav who made a takana how many times people have to date before they get engaged. He’s hoping that will stem the tide of young couples getting divorced.July 24, 2011 11:42 am at 11:42 am #1200089
I’m sorry that I must object, but I find it offensive that a child should be referred to as a “tzaar”. Yes, I understand the parents divorced. But a child referred to as a “tzaar”?? A child is always a beautiful innocent neshama and he or she should live ad meah v’esrim shana. Please, please be happy for the birth of a child, even in a case of divorce. Would either parent ever tell the child at some point what a “tzaar” his birth was?? Or how regrettable it was that he was born?? Of course not. Because it isn’t.July 24, 2011 2:22 pm at 2:22 pm #1200090Menachem MelamedParticipant
I think that there are many causes, but two of them are especially important:
1) Many people are self-centered. Selfishness is poison to a marriage.
2) Many people who give advice to young people are not qualified to do so. This includes people with titles such as Dr., Rabbi, Rebbetzin, teacher, etc. It is crucial to get advice, but the advisor must be up to the task.July 24, 2011 8:19 pm at 8:19 pm #1200091m in IsraelMember
Peacemaker — I most certainly did not refer to a child as a “tzaar”! Please read my post again more carefully. The word “tzaar” means pain. I said the second case was “with the added tzaar (pain) of a child on the way.” It is usually true that a divorce with children (or in this case with a pregnant wife) involves more pain, even from the simple perspective of an additional person having to live with added pain (“tzaar”) in their life. Additionally it is more painful for the couple who must now worry about the impact on their child. It is the divorce which is painful, and divorce with children is even more painful — of course it is not the child who is the source of pain. In this particular case the mental health issues of the husband that led to the divorce should have been revealed before hand. This happened a number of years ago, and the child who lived many years with minimal contact with his father certainly suffered much pain — and this was an added dimension to the tzaar that always accompanies the breakup of a marriage.July 24, 2011 10:19 pm at 10:19 pm #1200092
Menachem Melamed, You have mentioned two factors contributing to divorces but neither of them the direct cause. I’ve never heard someone say that they divorced because the partner was selfish. In addition, I’ve never heard of a couple that got divorced based on the word of one advisor. If the couple was truly interested in saving their marriage, they would try many methods of making it work and contact more than one misguiding person…July 24, 2011 10:26 pm at 10:26 pm #1200093
If an external force (parent, friend, therapists, etc.) in dreying in and counseling for divorce, it certainly can cause an unnecessary divorce and frequently that is precisely what occurs.July 24, 2011 10:35 pm at 10:35 pm #1200094
Peacemaker, people don’t just divorce because of outside pressure. If the couple decides to follow the advice and divorce, it means that they already wanted to and probably needed to. The “support” just makes it easier.July 24, 2011 10:38 pm at 10:38 pm #1200095
I disagree. There are a lot of cases where someone mixed in to push one of the spouses to unnecessarily go for a divorce.July 24, 2011 10:50 pm at 10:50 pm #1200096
I’m not saying there aren’t cases, but it’s a far call from the primary cause for divorce. Even if someone mixed in, it usually only succeeds in quickening the process.July 24, 2011 11:36 pm at 11:36 pm #1200097
Often he is responsible for the process.July 25, 2011 1:08 am at 1:08 am #1200098
Do you know any specific cases, because I know quite a few where that is not the case. Like I said, it is POSSIBLE, but not as often as people would like to believe. People who are more familiar with divorces will genereally tell you what I said.July 25, 2011 3:03 am at 3:03 am #1200099
Many people who say that are probably guilty themselves of doing just that, hence their guilty conscience. It’s sad when someone knows quite a few cases altogether; it should be rare in the first place. That having been said, what I related earlier is what most rabbonim dealing with inyunei gitten will probably relate to you.July 25, 2011 3:41 am at 3:41 am #1200100
You are quite wrong. I possess no guilty conscience in that matter. And it might be sad that I know of some cases, but it shouldn’t come as surprise considering how prevalent divorces are. Most rabbonim dealing with inyunei gitten are more aware of the cases than you and I are, and I doubt they will tell you that that is the ultimate reason for divorce.July 25, 2011 3:59 am at 3:59 am #1200101
I learnt and am very close to a rov deeply involved in these inyunim (a lot more than you and I) for many years, and this is what he told me.July 25, 2011 4:14 am at 4:14 am #1200102
That is very sad if what the rav said is true. It doesn’t say a lot for mankind if we would all get divorced “cuz he told us to.”
But you can’t judge when you don’t know the situation and all the nuances. What you see is someone advising a divorce and the couple getting divorced. What you don’t see is all the pain that led up to it.
What I think is, someone supporting the divorce motivates the couple to get the divorce, but they clearly wanted to in the first place, because if they didn’t, they would still be married.July 27, 2011 5:22 pm at 5:22 pm #1200103
Another name -“Peacemaker, people don’t just divorce because of outside pressure. If the couple decides to follow the advice and divorce, it means that they already wanted to and probably needed to. The “support” just makes it easier.”
Wrong! I can’t speak for others, but by me this was exactly the case. The “support” was the one(s) who managed to convince her to get divorced.July 28, 2011 4:07 am at 4:07 am #1200104
Health, I’m so sorry to hear that 🙁 That is usually not the case and I know (too) many cases. I am guessing in you case the feelings weren’t mutual?July 28, 2011 6:42 pm at 6:42 pm #1200105
Another name – Oh the feelings were mutual -we both wanted to keep trying! But her “friends” and some of her family kept pushing. She wasn’t strong enough to reject that kind of pressure.
I’m probably the first to say this about an ex, but I actually don’t know if I was subjected to the same thing – of her almost daily manipulation that she got, if I would be able to withstand it. I just am wondering why no male ever pushed me that way?
One thing I will say -these women aren’t in the category of “Noshim Tzidkoneyus”! Now esp. during the three weeks, we need the Noshim Tzidkoneyus to take over. Chazal say because of Noshim Tzidkoneyus we will go out of Golus.
There is way too much LH and even more than LH, there is Motzay Shem Ra, which I believe is one of the main causes of divorce!July 29, 2011 7:16 pm at 7:16 pm #1200106
Health, you story is so sad and chaval. I am so sorry that you had to go through this pain. I don’t like to judge (since I don’t know what’s going on behind the closed doors), but in your situation it does seem that a divorce could have been avoided. I hope everything works out in the end and you can be zoche to see the hand of Hashem…July 29, 2011 8:35 pm at 8:35 pm #1200107shlishiMember
Health’s experience is most unfortunately all too common in divorce cases. Someone mixes in and convinces one of the spouses to seek an otherwise unnecessary divorce for a marriage that could have been saved. They destroy the family, the children, and so many people. Undoubtedly these people agitating for the divorce (of someone elses marriage) will have a lot of din v’cheshbon to pay for.July 29, 2011 9:25 pm at 9:25 pm #1200108cute10Member
Young ppl. r getting divorce and so r older ppl. It depends on the person how they r. Ppl. find out later in the marriage of who they really are behind the door. I know from my pass what i have been through how my ex is and my ex family is. There is no guarantee in anything you do today.July 29, 2011 9:48 pm at 9:48 pm #1200109quark2Member
divorce is a healthy normal thing that should be done as needed.
The problem is that there is such a stigma about it in the frum community, and for no reasonJuly 29, 2011 10:38 pm at 10:38 pm #1200110shlishiMember
Baruch Hashem divorce is stigmatized. Otherwise the situation would be so much worse.July 31, 2011 4:52 am at 4:52 am #1200111
quark2 -“divorce is a healthy normal thing that should be done as needed”
Oook, so after your divorce and you lose your kids (If you’re married and have kids.) -come back here and tell us how much you like it.
Also, who decides it’s needed the couple’s friends and family or professionals?July 31, 2011 5:41 am at 5:41 am #1200112
Health, quark was being very general. Most people DO get divorced because they have to as the “healthy normal thing”, whether from abuse, or emotional or mental disorder, or religious observance issue…
Your situation is so sad and ironic because more often than not (though not as much as it used to be), the Rabbonim push the couple to make a broken marriage work, when in reality that only exacerbates their hell.July 31, 2011 6:06 am at 6:06 am #1200113HachamMember
According to various gedolei rabbonim speaking on the topic of divorce, most divorces were avoidable.July 31, 2011 3:48 pm at 3:48 pm #1200114kylbdnrMember
Idk why but my family makes it seem like the couples who get married at 18 or 19 are the ones who get divorced cuz they didn’t know what kind of person they wanted to marry.
I know a couple who invited another couple to their home and the husband who was the host got divorced and married the other guys wife…it was so sad…July 31, 2011 4:53 pm at 4:53 pm #1200115
“Idk why but my family makes it seem like the couples who get married at 18 or 19 are the ones who get divorced cuz they didn’t know what kind of person they wanted to marry”
I don’t know why either because that is certainly far from the truth, and would be a very insensitive thing to say to a young divorcee. I find that a benefit of younger marriages, on the contrair, is that the individual girl and boy are not yet “molded,” so they are more capable of growing together and building their flexible future…July 31, 2011 6:08 pm at 6:08 pm #1200116common seichelMember
The crisis that trumps all crises and is probably the cause for many of the crises being dealt with today is the “spoiled rotten kids” crisis. Parents need to begin disciplining their children and preparing them to deal with the real world. Many young adults are so used to being handed everything they want on a silver platter without ever being told “no” that they simply have no clue how to deal with real life scenarios of every range of the spectrum – from bill-paying, to the complexity of a marriage relationship, to the challenges of raising their own children.
Parents: Teach your children how to be mature, self-sufficient individuals and many of these so-called crises will go away, guaranteed!July 31, 2011 11:37 pm at 11:37 pm #1200117tomim tihyeMember
I don’t think anyone mentioned this yet, but I know that some of today’s divorces occur because the husband had been molested as a child/teenager.August 1, 2011 2:23 pm at 2:23 pm #1200118
common seichel – While I agree that most kids are spoiled nowadays, I don’t think this causes divorces per se.
If it did most people getting married would end up divorced.November 25, 2015 9:52 pm at 9:52 pm #1200119HashemisreadingParticipant
Definitely bump worthy.November 25, 2015 11:36 pm at 11:36 pm #1200120
I agree with myself from four years ago.November 26, 2015 12:02 am at 12:02 am #1200121David Bar-MagenMember
I definitely still agree with the first post of the thread.
When I was a kid, Jewish couples did divorce, of course, but it was always a hush-hush affair that was often followed by a total relocation of both former spouses.
By the time I was marriage-age, I’d already seen the divorces of three friends of mine at whose weddings I’d danced. The reasons were varied and always seemed very important at the time, but the common denominator always seemed to be: It Was Just Not Working.
Nowadays, as a married man myself, I have definitely encountered my share of woes and bumps in the road. To me, the only game changer is when one or both spouses don’t WANT it to work. I’ve found that almost anything can be surmounted if both husband and wife are on the same page regarding where they want their marriage to be.
If both want it to work, I’ve seen severely beleaguered marriages bounce back stronger than ever. If even one of them doesn’t, a marriage will dissolve over the proper positioning of the toilet paper.December 3, 2015 8:11 pm at 8:11 pm #1200122HashemisreadingParticipant
“I agree with myself from four years ago. “
Daas Yochid: I admire that. It means you really do have a singular mind. Nice.December 14, 2016 3:38 am at 3:38 am #1200123LightbriteParticipant
Bump: Started 5yr agoDecember 14, 2016 5:41 pm at 5:41 pm #1200124
DY – do you still agree with yourself?December 14, 2016 7:09 pm at 7:09 pm #1200125
Yes. It’s a davar pashut, and anyone who blames the divorce rate on factors which are prevalent only in communities which (if anything) have a lower divorce rate needs to examine their prejudices.December 14, 2016 8:14 pm at 8:14 pm #1200126
DY +1December 14, 2016 8:23 pm at 8:23 pm #1200127
DY, Regarding your second to last post – You said that you think the main reason for divorce (in the cases you know of) was that at least one did not want it to work. Why do you think that one of them didn’t want it to work? Do you think that:
1. That’s just life. Sometimes people end up married to people who are not right for them and there’s nothing that anyone can do about it because there was is way to know beforehand.
2. Someone had a serious problem that there was no way to know beforehand.
3. Someone had a serious problem that could have been known beforehand.
4. They weren’t a good shidduch, maybe one of them didn’t really like the other one enough to be marrying them, but felt pressurred to get married and this could have been prevented if they either had gone out longer or there had been less pressure put on them or they had used more common sense before getting engaged.
5. The marriage could have worked out if both had been willing to make it work.
or 6. You have no idea. How could you possibly know?
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