Divorce in the Frume Veldt

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  • #611289
    Redleg
    Participant

    Divorce in our community is very much in the news these days. Besides the current headline i’m aware of a few other divorces in my community and something strikes me. Besides the get withholding, it seems that every one of the divorces I know of are rancorous and recriminatory, even where the get is given. Is there no such thing as amicable separation in the frum community? Can’t a frum couple determine that their marriage is unsalvageable and rationally decide to end it? Friendly divorces happen all the time in the Gentile world. Must every divorce in our world end in bitterness and acrimony?

    #987364
    live rite
    Member

    Are you kidding? It’s much worse in the secular world.

    #987365
    zahavasdad
    Participant

    Divorce occurs because 2 people cant stand each other. In the secular world its generally over money instead of “granting divorce” . In the secular world an Agunah could never occur as Abandoment is grounds for divorce and if one party does not contest or even show up in court its given.

    #987366

    It has been proven beyond doubt that couples who marry at younger ages are more likely to get divorced than those who are older when getting married.. This is true especially if the girls are under 21, al pi the study I read. In the frum velt, girls and boys commonly get married very young compared to the national average. This might be the reason behind growing divorce rates. Just a thought.

    #987367
    HaLeiVi
    Participant

    Ha. The quiet ones are the ones you don’t hear about.

    #987369
    dee1
    Member

    I know more than one couple who had a peaceful divorce. Haleivi is right, those are the ones you don’t hear about.

    #987370
    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    It has been proven beyond doubt that couples who marry at younger ages are more likely to get divorced than those who are older when getting married..

    That might be because they live longer after their marriage.

    In the frum velt, girls and boys commonly get married very young compared to the national average. This might be the reason behind growing divorce rates. Just a thought.

    On the other hand, our divorce rate is a fraction of theirs, so why in the world would you think to compare that?

    #987371
    live rite
    Member

    rationalfrummie, in addition to popa’s great point, where have you seen such data? In the frum veldt the couples that marry younger have a lower divorce rate than those marrying later.

    #987372
    Torah613Torah
    Participant

    Popa’s right. We marry younger and have a much smaller percentage of divorce. We have more similar backgrounds, beliefs, and goals; less or no baggage; and a stronger support system throughout our lives than people in the outside world.

    #987373
    a mamin
    Participant

    It is very unfortunate ( to put it mildly)that in our circles there are many parents who twist their childrens’ minds against one spouse! They are not thinking of their childrens’ future! They are actually killing their own children!They only have revenge in their mind! How could someone do that to their own child(ren)? i know of one very special case. She is truly a remarkable woman.She never ever discusses one negative word against her ex husband to anyone especially her children. She says she doesn’t need them to suffer needlessly for a decision she made. He will always be their father.

    Her children are the most adjusted and normal children from a divorced home I ever met! She put her feelings aside and loves her children dearly!

    #987374
    oomis
    Participant

    The frum divorce rate has risen exponentially and sadly is keeping up with the secular world, comparatively speaking. One in two secular marriages ends in divorce. I don’t know the statistics for frum Jews (and they are included in the secular count, as well, because the stats are compiled from ALL civilly-granted divorces)in terms of GET, but it is clear that the numbers are MUCH MUCH higher than when I was growing up.

    Part of that is because the general stigma of divorce has been removed. When I was a kid, it was a whispered behind closed doors type of shanda for someone to get divorced, and people stayed together for the sake of the kids (making no judgment here about whether or not that is really good for the kids). Nowadays, there are so many people divorcing, it is almost chalilah “fashionable.” There was even once a joke in a movie about someone thinking he would make some woman he just met the next future EX-Mrs. So and So. I did not find the line funny. Truthfully, I am starting to think there IS something to staying together for the sake of the kids. Stick-to-it-iveness is a good thing, unless there is real physical or emotional abuse going on. Then all bets are off.

    Another issue is that kids are being convinced to get married after a REALLY relatively short time, not spending enough time with each other to really get to know each other, and don’t have a realistic view of marriage, especially if they are going from mommy and daddy’s house where they were supported, into theirown house, and still being supported. Often the girls are becoming pregnant almost immediately, before they even have time to adjust to being married. In the best case scenario, pregnancy can be tiring, overwhelming, uncomfortable (see the posts about needing a housekeeper). Add that discomfort to the mix of adjusting to another person’s eating habits, sleeping habits, hygiene, and housekeeping habits, and you have a recipe for disaster for many young couples today.

    I would love to see Chosson and Kallah teachers give realistic classes to their respective students. How about an assignment to draw up a budget based on a limited amount of monthly funds? How about a WHAT IF questionnaire and discussion period, to see how the CH and K would handle different scenarios (i.e., he wants to learn full time but she has to quit her job or gets fired for some reason, and finds she is expecting and physically may not do any work or is bedridden because of a threatened miscarriage or the like)? How will they handle in-law problems, like interference or support with strings attached. What if it is only one-sided? Etc.

    These and of course the usual other reasons, are why there is a rising divorce rate among frum people, as well as the general population. It is not to say that people cannot get married after YEARS of knowing each other and STILL get divorced, but the phenomenon of seeing newlyweds break up, is getting worse each year. My son now has at least three or four close friends who are divorced, or miserable in their recent marriages. That is appalling to hear.

    #987375
    rebdoniel
    Member

    In the secular world, there’s no concern that a woman remains chained, essentially enslaved, to her husband, which is what happens when a man refuses to give a get.

    I think working through hypotheticals is a great idea. Communication, compromise, a desire to place one’s spouse first, and compatibility (religiously, personality-wise, and in other ways) are all essential.

    #987376
    🍫Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    I think the divorce rate is not about age or sheltered-ness. I think it is about how we raise our kids. Our kids are growing up in a world were everything is on credit and little is toiled for. If we can’t afford it, we charge it. If we can’t charge it, we refinance. If we want it, we buy it RIGHT NOW online. If it is the wrong price, we bizrate quote. Bored? go online. Nobody answering the phone? message them. Parents yelled at you? text a friend.

    When your world works like that, it is very hard to develop a value system that includes delayed gratification, compromise and time alone with yourself to determine who you are and how your behavior affects others.

    I know friends who get in fights with their spouse. In the past, they would be left alone to process the fight or they may call a friend . Now they get online and ask a chat room full of people for their opinions and support. Or they get online and distract themselves til the pain goes away. The fundamental relationship developing skills are dwindling.

    #987377
    WIY
    Member

    Syag

    Wisdom. +1

    #987378
    Redleg
    Participant

    I’ve heard that the divorce rate in the secular world is actually declining. Of course, that may be because more couples aren’t bothering to get married.

    #987379
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    +2

    #987380
    🍫Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    WIY – thanks

    #987381
    WIY
    Member

    Syag

    In essence instead of dealing with our issues today we just distract ourselves and escape.

    #987382

    Popa: Its not a 20 year difference, but a one of 5-10 years. And everyone lives as many years as Hashem gives so you can’t assume a younger couple will live longer. And our divorce rate is growing. We should be better than the goyim- that’s why I’m comparing!

    #987383
    zahavasdad
    Participant

    In the past a woman without a husband was lost and could not earn a living so if you had for example an abusive or drunk husband you were basically stuck.

    #987384
    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    We should be better than the goyim- that’s why I’m comparing!

    Sure, but you are making a correlation where there obviously are confounding variables which make the correlation likely inapplicable here.

    That is, in the general population, they get married old, have lots of divorce, and the younger marriers get more divorced.

    In our world, we get married young, and have much less divorce. You can’t assume that the correlation that the younger marriers are getting more divorced holds.

    #987385
    Redleg
    Participant

    You know, we keep saying that the divorce rate among unzerer is much lower than that in the general population but I don’t know. does anyone have real numbers to back that up? I don’t think that it can be denied that our divorce rate is climbing. When I got married (back in the late Bronze Age) I didn’t know or know of anyone my age being divorced. Nowadays, there seems to be hardly any family that doesn’t have a divorced child. What’s up with that?

    #987386
    live rite
    Member

    Are you kidding? Among my many frum friends, most by far don’t have any divorces in their immediate family.

    #987387

    Oomis:

    I once wrote about it. Yaakov Avinu was thinking about divorcing Leah, ?? ????? ???, so Hashem hurriedly sent children her way. Medrash continues, Yakkov exclaimed, “How can I divorce the mother of these?!”.

    There is a lesson to be learned. Today’s selfish society wants every thing for self gratification, glorification, no time or room for another. Marriage is for external desires, passions, and the minute external “circumstances” wane or wears off, people, like disposables, are dumped.

    A far cry from the selfless life style of the previous. Children were not “in the way”, to the contrary – they were the glue that actually solidified their marriage.

    #987388
    Redleg
    Participant

    Live Rite, Certainly not kidding. Wish I were.

    #987389
    YacMo
    Member

    According to the recent studies I observed, the divorce rates in the secular world were astronomical numbering close to 40 percent. Although the divorce rate is growing in the Jewish world, I would think it a bit on the naive side to think that 4 out of every ten marriages nowadays end in divorce. On the same token, however, I do believe that the root of divorce in secular society does parallel a major problem which exists in the frum community which does seem to cause many divorces. T

    That problem is simply that people nowadays don’t know how to be givers. They live their whole lives as takers and when they get married, they’re not prepared to make that switch to giving to someone else before themselves. The rabbonim in Mir would always relate this point as the reason for so many unsuccessful marriages in modern times. Its not so much the distractions of technology as was suggested in an earlier post as it is what results. The result of all of these things is a general mentality that “I come first”, that is, the personality of a taker. It can be very difficult to live with a person like this, but can you imagine a household when both spouses have this problem? It could be, that this character trait was learnt from the goyim as many of them lack the desire to give unconditionally. That same point which yields so many divorces in their community also disrupts our own.

    #987390
    TRUEBT
    Participant

    Hasidic People: A Place in the New World,

    Book by Jerome R. Mintz; Harvard University Press, 1992

    page 390:

    “It is estimated that the general American divorce rate for marriages made between 1970 and 1985 is 50 percent. Rates of divorce among American Jews are somewhat lower, with approximately one of every three or four marriages predicted to end in divorce. The percentages scale downward depending on degree of religiousness, with close to 50 percent predicted for the general Jewish population in most urban centers, while a quarter of modern Orthodox marriages are destined for

    failure, and divorces among the ultraOrthodox will hover at over 10 percent. All the rates for divorce are the highest in the history of Judaism.”

    #987391
    live rite
    Member

    I doubt the ultraOrthodox divorce rate is anywhere close to 10%. Of the roughly 90 weddings I went to over the past 10 years only 3 ended in divorce.

    #987392
    lolasmama
    Member

    I agree with zahavasdad. In my parents generation, there were few divorces. One, was due to the husband straying, and another, abuse.. and the abuse couple were Catholic, which was unheard of. Now, if the couple is miserable, they can divorce because the wife is able to work.

    I have seen several former students divorce. The ones that divorced were married before she had an post seminary education and was literally pushed into marriage by the parents. The girls that are in a successful happy marriage have degrees and careers, maybe that is why it works.. more of an equal footing.

    #987393
    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    I doubt the ultraOrthodox divorce rate is anywhere close to 10%. Of the roughly 90 weddings I went to over the past 10 years only 3 ended in divorce.

    They’re probably including people with a x-mas tree in their house as modern orthodox like the pew study.

    But just to pick on your statistics, some people get divorced after 10 years also you know.

    #987394
    cinderella
    Member

    We live in a disposable generation. Why bother to fix something when you can just get a new one?

    Stop using your biases to prove your non-factual statistics. Using the people you know doesn’t prove anything about anyone but the people you know.

    #987395
    YacMo
    Member

    @Cinderella- But its assumed that the people one knows is a valid representation of the population. For example, if someone knows 90 standard yddin from a certain area, it serves as a valid population for that area (unless there are variable factors pertaining to the entire group as a whole).

    #987396
    The little I know
    Participant

    There are many different reasons for failed marriages. To add here all those I have observed would be quite long and still not exhaustive.

    For one, people today are poorly prepared for marriage. Living with someone of opposite gender is a challenge, and this is not being addressed by yeshivos or Bais Yaakovs at all. No skills in communication, no understanding of the obstacles, no guidance in setting up homes, no training on how to assume and share the tasks of managing a home or family.

    Secondly, the guidance that young couples seek is fraught with problems. Some seek guidance and direction from roshei yeshivos or kolellim, others from sundry other rabbanim, chosson and kallah teachers, most with great intentions but zero understanding about how to assist a struggling relationship. Others approach family members whose biases cannot be excluded. Such people, again with the best intentions, tend to make a bigger mess of things.

    Thirdly, no one is prepared to deal with conflict. Yes, husbands will argue with their wives. But nearly any issue can be resolved if the two want it. But many take conflict as basis for battle, and engage in countless ways to destroy the other. Once this begins, it becomes almost impossible to reverse it and create a harmonious relationship.

    Next, there is often a huge difference in personal beliefs and the importance of various issues. For example, some young people will consider their “right” to be by their parents for Yom Tov sacrosanct, being violated if the spouse insists on different. Some girls have been taught to be their husband’s mashgiach, and they are offended deeply if he sleeps late in the morning.

    On and on, this list can go. We can introduce the uses and abuses of technology, incessant phone use, secrets, etc. Some of these are introductions of the current generation.

    Meanwhile, there is an alarming increase in failed marriages. Maybe we need to address the ways in which we can prepare young people for marriage, and then help them maintain them.

    #987397
    cinderella
    Member

    Yacmo- we are talking about divorce in the frum world. Not in your ten block radius. That provides a valid representation for that area. To say that those same statistics apply to the rest of the frum world is inaccurate.

    #987398
    SanityIsOverrated
    Participant

    In the Jewish world, there is a huge stress on family life. There really is no comparison to the secular world in which single parents are the norm. In my secular college, out of 30 classmates we had only 2 married. There were perhaps around 5 of us without kids. Comparing that with both my Jewish classes, I only know of 1 divorce out of 60 girls my age.

    About the Get, it isn’t so easy for the man if the woman refuses the Get. Yes, it is worse for the woman, but don’t forget the men either. The reason is that we’re not supposed to divorce peoples. Maybe we need to stress how important a decision it is to marry.

    Despite our lesser percentage of divorces, it’s still too many

    I think it may be from too much pressure for kids to get married young. Why does everyone have to scare the singles with, “you’re not getting any younger?” The moment I left high school people were asking me about dating. I know they did it with good intentions, but the pressure this puts on any single is enormous. It’s no wonder that under this pressure, along with an unfamiliar world of hormones for the single who grew up in a gender separate world, that too many are jumping into marriage too fast, too soon.

    There are cases of abuse. This happens, and when it’s escalated past a certain point, divorce is the only option. However, maybe we also need to highlight what abuse is. So our young couples can learn to recognize the signs. There are many preventative measures that could be taken even before marriage. As a family oriented society, we have an advantage in preventing abuse with social awareness. Let’s use it!

    #987399
    oomis
    Participant

    Syag and Little Froggie +1 to both

    #987400
    peacefull
    Member

    Lots of divorces are often caused by “expectations” ‘my spouse is not meeting up with my expectations’ which in these cases, they need to learn & know the value of marriage.

    Lots of divorces are caused by self centeredness with a combination of stubbornness, that’s simply said a real baby. they should go seek the values in life.

    However, true, there are situations where he or she does have serious complications, but those are the minority of the frum divorces.

    Basically saying that today lots of people have lost lots of their talarence & their sense of values, “it’s all about ME”

    Once again, it only takes one rotten egg to kill the recipe, if one seeks to fix the relationship & the other goes on their merry way there’s no hope for this relationships existence.

    *

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