Do any Frum Anti-Vaxxers Drink Cholov Stam Milk?

Home Coffeeroom Kashruth Do any Frum Anti-Vaxxers Drink Cholov Stam Milk?

Viewing 35 posts - 1 through 35 (of 35 total)
  • Author
    Posts
  • #1637910

    DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    The way they mistrust the government, there’s no way they can agree with the heter of Rav Moshe Feinstein zt”l.

    #1638040

    laskern
    Participant

    They consider vaccine dangerous to their health and חמירא סכנתא מאיסורי a danger is harsher than a prohibition.

    #1638148

    DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    If they trusted the government, they wouldn’t consider them dangerous.

    #1638152

    DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    חמירא סכנתא מאיסורי has nothing to do with this.

    It’s a bigger סכנה not to vax, according to רוב רופאים. The הלכה is to follow רוב רופאים.

    #1638157

    laskern
    Participant

    According to their view לשטתם since they believe strongly that vaccination is dangerous, so they don’t trust the government over here, but by milk they do trust the government.

    #1638175

    DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    According to their view לשטתם since they believe strongly that vaccination is dangerous,

    Then they obviously think the government lies.

    So they shouldn’t trust them for anything.

    #1638189

    fg3433
    Participant

    I think cholov stam has more to do with “fear of the government” by companies (i.e getting fined/losing their livelihood) than “trusting” the government.

    #1638188

    justme22
    Participant

    R Moshe’s Heter was a big chidush. They are trusting r Moshe for Halacha which makes sense but they are not going to r Moshe formedical advice.
    I am not an antivacxr but every day someone is trying to find some non logical way to attack antivacxers.
    Many posskim don’t trust the góceme net for chalav Israel yet vaccinate do we ask them how can they trust cdc?
    Just doesn’t work like that

    #1638183

    laskern
    Participant

    DY, They are more cocerned and suspicious on the danger of ונשמרתם md’orayta than by a prohibition of milk which is darabonon. We don’t know if they are lying so the question is if the milk producer trusts them because of the punishment they might receive. How do you feel about climate change?

    #1638215

    DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    They are more cocerned and suspicious on the danger of ונשמרתם md’orayta than by a prohibition of milk which is darabonon

    Then they should vax, because that reduces sakana according to the government.

    #1638218

    DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    I think cholov stam has more to do with “fear of the government” by companies (i.e getting fined/losing their livelihood) than “trusting” the government.

    According to the anti-vaxxers, the government is easily bribed.

    #1638219

    DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    every day someone is trying to find some non logical way to attack antivacxers.

    Unnecessary. There are logical ways.

    This, BTW, isn’t an attack. It’s just an observation that to be consistent, anti-vaxxers would have to asser cholov stam. Maybe in fact they all do.

    #1638221

    Milhouse
    Participant

    Although I neither oppose vaccines nor rely on Reb Moshe’s heter for commercial milk, let me point out that this heter does not depend on trusting the government. On the contrary, Reb Moshe takes for granted that government inspectors can be bribed, and will be if there’s any money to be made from it. His heter for commercial milk rests on several factors, one of which — but not the most important one — is that in the setting of a large commercial plant it’s impossible to do anything wrong on any significant scale without bribing people not to report it, so it will only be done when it’s profitable. Substituting non-kosher milk for kosher at the plant is not profitable, so it’s not worth paying the bribes that are necessary to hide it.

    #1638233

    DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    No, that’s not the heter. Nonprofitability was the Pri Chodosh’ heter, but R’ Moshe is going even according to the Chasam Sofer.

    #1638242

    Milhouse
    Participant

    Reb Moshe’s heter seems to have developed over time, but if you learn the teshuvos, especially the third one with all the lomdus, it turns out in the end that one can forget about government inspection altogether. It was a factor in the first teshuva, but once he spelled out his whole shita it no longer seems necessary. Even if there were no inspection at all, the same reasoning would continue to permit all commercially produced milk in a sealed tamper-proof container, so long as it is purchased from a non-Jewish retailer.

    To understand this you really need to learn it inside. I don’t personally rely on this shita, but it is not nearly as simplistic as people (both who use it and who don’t) make it out to be. It’s certainly not driven by looking for a kulla. Rather, Reb Moshe held that this is what Chazal really meant all along.

    #1638248

    Milhouse
    Participant

    Daas Yochid, yes, Reb Moshe rejects the Pri Chodosh (which is really the Radvaz, I don’t know why people attribute it to the Pri Chodosh) and declares that all Ashkenazim hold like the Chasam Sofer. His shita is 100% like the Chasam Sofer, that this is a dovor shebeminyon. Indeed his whole shita depends on this. But he makes much of the fact that at a commercial processing plant it’s impossible to adulterate the milk without having to bribe people to keep their mouths shut, and since there’s no profit to be made nobody will pay such bribes. He is very clear that if it is profitable then we must assume inspectors can and will be bribed.

    #1638300

    Milhouse
    Participant

    Perhaps I should explain a little about the Radvaz v the Chasam Sofer, and where Reb Moshe stood.

    The Radvaz held that there was never any gezera against cholov nochri. It simply never happened. Lahadam. Chazal simply pointed out that in the metzius of their day there was a ch’shash about milk being adulterated, and since sofek d’oraisa lechumra one must be careful. Where the metzius is that there is no such ch’shash, one may drink cholov nochri. So according to him there is no problem at all in the US. You can buy milk from a farm, or wherever you like, and the whole siman in shulchon oruch is not relevant.

    The Chasam Sofer held that cholov nochri is forbidden by a gezeiras Chazal, a dovor shebeminyan, and therefore even if we know there’s no ch’shash of treif, it’s inherently treif, just like chicken parmesan.

    Reb Moshe absolutely agrees with the Chasam Sofer, and therefore says there is no heter whatsoever to drive up to a non-Jewish farm and buy a jar of fresh milk. Even though we don’t suspect anything, Chazal forbade it.

    However, he says, there are two important caveats:

    1. We do not need to physically see the milking with our own eyes. What we need is a clear and definite knowledge that the milk did not come from a treife animal. The Torah considers clear and definite knowledge to be the same as physical sight. It allows eidus where the witnesses didn’t actually see what they are testifying to, but they know with absolute certainty that it happened.

    2. Chazal only made their gezera on the last nochri to whom the milk belonged before it came into Jewish possession. So we only need this absolute certainty about the last nochri in the chain of ownership; with the rest of the nochrim in the chain there is no gezera, so it’s simply a question of whether there is a real ch’shash, in which case sofek d’oraisa lechumra, or there is no real ch’shash, in which case it’s heter gomur.

    Therefore it comes out that if you buy a sealed tamper-proof carton of milk from a bodega, you are completely certain, as if you saw it with your own eyes, that from the time it was delivered to the bodega nobody put anything inside. Any problem must have happened earlier. Since we have no reason to suspect anything did happen earlier, and we have eidus that nothing happened in the bodega owner’s reshus, Reb Moshe holds that it has a din of cholov yisroel. (The term “cholov stam” does not exist in halocho, and certainly Reb Moshe never uses it. I don’t know where this term came from.)

    #1638350

    Alles is Kartofol
    Participant

    The term “cholov stam” does not exist in halocho, and certainly Reb Moshe never uses it.

    That is my understanding as well; the term used by HaRav Hagaon Rav Moshe Feinstein, ZT”L, in Igros Moshe is <i>Kholov ‘HaCompanies'</i>.

    When discussing this topic of whether milk produced under government inspection is permissable, it must be noted that (at least in the U.S.; I am unfamiliar with the <i>metzius</i> elsewhere) the shailo <i>today</i> is not only one of a <i>d’rabbonan</i> but also of a <i>d’oraisa</i> of <i>treifus</i>> (This is because of a change in <i>metzius</i> since the time of the Igros Moshe. Namely, the surgeries that are routinely performed on dairy cows.) Thus, even many of those who had previously relied upon the <i>heter</i> to use commercially produced (but non-<i>kholov Yisroel</i>) milk no longer do so today. As always, one should consult his <i>poseik</i>/<i>morah derekh</i> for guidance.

    #1638352

    Alles is Kartofol
    Participant

    The term “cholov stam” does not exist in halocho, and certainly Reb Moshe never uses it.

    That is my understanding as well; the term used by HaRav Hagaon Rav Moshe Feinstein, ZT”L, in Igros Moshe is <i>Cholov ‘HaCompanies'</i>.

    #1638361

    Alles is Kartofol
    Participant

    “Kholov HaCompanies” is the term found in Igros Moshe.

    Note that the shailo today is also a /d’oraisa/ of /treifus/ because of the surgeries that are routinely performed upon dairy cows. Thus, some (many?) say that even Igros Moshe would not permit today. As always, one should consult his personal poseik/ morah derekh.

    #1638434

    Neville ChaimBerlin
    Participant

    There was a YWN article a few years ago that said because government regulations have changed, all cholov stam drinkers are relying on the Pri Chodosh now whether they like it or not. I’m not sure how to track that article down.

    #1638447

    laskern
    Participant

    The Pischei Tshuva says that if the chazal did not asser beminyan is worse because now it is assur mdOrayta because of a neder.

    #1638471

    Neville ChaimBerlin
    Participant

    Here’s the article:

    “It is interesting to note, however, that, apparently in response to the new reality, the OU’s policy, as told to this author, is now to rely upon the Pri Chodosh.”

    As the article admits, no official OU statement of this can be found on the web, but I don’t see why he would lie. This is a bigger and frankly more interesting discussion than how it pertains to anti-vaxxers, which was kind of silly to begin with.

    Cholov Yisroel versus Cholov Stam

    #1638475

    DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Milhouse, I didn’t read your whole post (I’ll try to later) but the issue here isn’t just bribery. The whole mirsus might be non existent if the government is as corrupt as the anti-vaxxers claim. Who says they even check (properly)?

    #1638480

    DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    (The term “cholov stam” does not exist in halocho, and certainly Reb Moshe never uses it. I don’t know where this term came from.)

    Who cares? It’s the same thing, just the commonly used term.

    FWIW, I have seen it referred to that way in halachic literature.

    #1638489

    DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    There was a YWN article a few years ago that said because government regulations have changed, all cholov stam drinkers are relying on the Pri Chodosh now whether they like it or not. I’m not sure how to track that article down.

    I think this was published on a different site.

    https://oukosher.org/blog/consumer-kosher/rav-moshe-ztls-heter-of-cholov-stam-revisited/

    Although their conclusion is that it’s still good even according to the C”S, some poskim do say that’s no longer true.

    #1638492

    DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Alles: Welcome. The <i> tag doesn’t work here. You need to use < em >.

    #1638530

    DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    The Kosher Kitchen (Rabbi Binyomin Forst) page 311:

    “A new term of “chalav stam” was formulated to refer to regular non chalav Yisroel milk.”

    #1638552

    Neville ChaimBerlin
    Participant

    So, it sounds like the OU representative who spoke with Rabbi Hoffman was not really reflecting the OU’s policy as a whole.

    It’s pretty academic at the end of the day. I know it should theoretically be important to Ashkenazim that Reb Moshe’s heter is still relevant, but the common practice is to be matir Cholov Stam and no matter what, there’s SOME heter for it. I don’t think people are miskaven to “trust the government” every time they put a bottle of cholov stam milk in their shopping carts.

    #1638596

    DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    It’s pretty academic at the end of the day

    It shouldn’t be, but at the end of the day, Rav Belsky and YL”T Rav Dovid Feinstein hold Rav Moshe’s heter is still in place. So there is what to rely on, even though some poskim hold it’s longer applicable.

    I don’t think people are miskaven to “trust the government” every time they put a bottle of cholov stam milk in their shopping carts.

    Davar she’eino miskaven isn’t a heter for cholov aku”m.

    #1638676

    Neville ChaimBerlin
    Participant

    “It shouldn’t be”
    I agree, as I said in the post. But, those who drink chalav stam either hold the heter is still active or hold that it’s OK to hold by the Pri Chodosh now, so there’s not much of a difference l’maaseh. If, theoretically, something were to happen with the government that for sure ruined Reb Moshe’s heter, it would be nearly impossible to get the bulk of the population to go chalav Yisroel overnight. If that situation were to occur, I think an emergency heter to hold by the Pri Chodosh would emerge as the end of that article seemed to imply.

    “Davar she’eino miskaven isn’t a heter for cholov aku”m.”
    I hope you don’t really think that’s what I meant. People know whether or not they rely on a heter. If they do, they do. They don’t think about the reasoning behind it every time to buy milk. Chalav stam anti-vaxxers aren’t thinking “I trust the government here, but not here.” They’re thinking, “I hold it’s mutar to drink chalav stam because I don’t hold by those who say it’s assur. I hold it’s mutar to deny my kids basic medical necessities because I don’t hold by those who say it’s assur.” It’s not a battle that can be won on a religious or logical front.

    #1639064

    DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    If, theoretically, something were to happen with the government that for sure ruined Reb Moshe’s heter, it would be nearly impossible to get the bulk of the population to go chalav Yisroel overnight.

    If the national kashrus agencies acted with integrity and dropped their hechsherim, people would have to switch to cholov Yisroel (or pareve alternatives).

    #1639066

    DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    I hope you don’t really think that’s what I meant.

    No.

    Chalav stam anti-vaxxers aren’t thinking “I trust the government here, but not here.” They’re thinking, “I hold it’s mutar to drink chalav stam because I don’t hold by those who say it’s assur.

    In other words, they aren’t thinking.

    It’s not a battle that can be won on a religious or logical front.

    That’s my point (as least regarding logic).

    #1639073

    DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Milhouse: Therefore it comes out that if you buy a sealed tamper-proof carton of milk from a bodega, you are completely certain, as if you saw it with your own eyes, that from the time it was delivered to the bodega nobody put anything inside. Any problem must have happened earlier. Since we have no reason to suspect anything did happen earlier, and we have eidus that nothing happened in the bodega owner’s reshus, Reb Moshe holds that it has a din of cholov yisroel.

    Where do you get this from? If that were true, you could buy sealed milk even in a country with no government regulation, (as long as adulteration is assumrd uncommon) which Rav Moshe was never mattir. Similarly, the whole revisitation of the heter mentioned in the articles linked above would have been pointless.

    #1639072

    DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    “It is interesting to note, however, that, apparently in response to the new reality, the OU’s policy, as told to this author, is now to rely upon the Pri Chodosh.”

    That doesn’t make sense, because as the article notes, we pasken like the C”S, and is definitely not what Rav Belsky held.

    I don’t believe it’s at all a reflection of anything but someone’s imagination.

Viewing 35 posts - 1 through 35 (of 35 total)
  • You must be logged in to reply to this topic.


Trending