do goyim have bchira chofshis?

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  • #2021215

    Do goyim have bchira chofshis? do gentiles have the ability to choose to do something or are they controlled by Hashem? If they do what level of bchira chofshis do they have? Do they have as much choice as us?

    #2021247
    AviraDeArah
    Participant

    Bechira is defined by the ramchal as the ability to choose right and wrong. As yidden, we have more opportunities to decide these things, because everything we do is either a mitzvah or an aveirah; there’s no “neutral” action, as explained in chovos halevavos the same is not true for goyin; they only hhave67 kitzvos, and their service of Hashem is auxillary, it is not an all encompassing lifestyle where every machshava dibur and maaseh is sanctified to be in sync with the ratzon Hashem..

    It’s fitting therefore that they have bechira, but only as fas as their decisions which impact the 7 mitzvos and their subcategories.

    #2021249
    Novelty
    Participant

    That’s a great question. I’m not positive I know the answer, and I suspect that the answer actually has multiple levels. Here are some thoughts:

    1. All people were created b’tzelem Elokim, with a body from below and a soul from above. That soul is what separates us from the animals. That soul was put into Adam HaRishon, who was not a Jew, for he was the root of all humanity.

    Adam HaRishon and Chava were given free choice to follow Hashem’s commands or not. They didn’t have a yetzor hara until eating from the Etz HaDaas, but they still had the ability to sin, though they didn’t have the inclination for it. Theoretically, they could have rebelled for the sake of rebellion, but it was like a person who knows he CAN run naked in the street but has no desire to do so.

    Animals, unlike humans, have a different type of soul — one that craves comfort, good food, procreation, etc., but it is not a soul endowed with free choice, for it runs only on instinct.

    Human beings have the ability to override instinct for the sole purpose of doing what Hashem wants. That goes for all of us… However….

    2. Here’s where I’m venturing a tentative guess: I think that people can lose free choice when they’ve pushed the mitzvos far enough away. But to be clear, I haven’t actually studied this inyan. I just know that Paroah’s heart became hard after he rejected Hashem’s words one time too many.
    I may be wrong on this entire premise.

    3. That said, from what I’ve heard is that when a Yid does a mitzvah, it creates a natural consequence that affects the non-Jews, de-activating, on some level, antisemitism.
    Hashem created this world with many laws, and one of them is that when the Jews behave corruptly, the non-Jews retaliate with hatred. I THINK this is more of a klal aspect, but individuals within that Klal should retain free choice until the point that they forfeit it.

    Every person — Jew or non-Jew — has the ability to turn to Hashem and serve Him.
    Or not.

    #2021297

    novelty
    on point two maybe pharos free was taken away only for thatchoice but for other choices he still had free choice. i.e. maybe on an issue that was unrelated he would not lose his free choice. the reason why his free choice was taken away was not a punishment it was just to make an example of paroh as in this is what happens if you mess with the lord of the isralites.

    Avira based on that do i have a choice what flavored instant soup i have?

    #2021330
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    It says by Pharaoh that he was taken away the free choice. I think the meaning is that the help that we have against the yetzer hara was taken away from him. In Parashas Bo they ask the question about free choice where the Dubner Maggid explains that Pharaoh originally did not want but the makus changed his mind, so his freedom of choice was restored.

    #2021367
    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    If a person does not have b’chira, how can they be rewarded/punished for their actions?

    The Wolf

    #2021406
    Shimon Nodel
    Participant

    Once again, Avira is wrong

    #2021448
    AviraDeArah
    Participant

    Novelty; i think you have to agree that the service of Hashem is different for goyim than it is for Jews. We have 613 mitzvos, and they have 7.

    They are also incapable of sanctifying the physical world, which is why the only korban they can bring is an Olah, which is completely consumed on the mizbayach.

    Shimon, why am i wrong? I think it’s a very good cheshbon – bechira is to do what’s right and wrong, and goyim have less opportunity and capacity for those decisions, therefore they have less bechira.

    #2021496
    ☕️coffee addict
    Participant

    I think I like what avira is saying

    I would say also that bchirah applies only to Mitzvos

    #2021510
    Novelty
    Participant

    The difference between Yidden and non Jews is that we have chukim, while they only have rational mitzvos. But many non-Jews are fully capable of having an intense, deep relationship with Hashem.
    I think it is a frum misconception that non-Jews don’t think as much as Jews and have less capacity to make decisions. Their mitzvos are different and less limiting, in a way, but in another way, their mitzvos are more demanding, because whenever they have to do a mitzvah, they have to remind themselves they are doing it because of Hashem, NOT because it’s rational. That’s a constant mental battle, to remain in the state of active positive choice.

    #2021517
    CTRebbe
    Participant

    There is no such thing as more bechira or less. It is a yes or no question. It is not even a question that of course all humans have bechira. (bechira for angels is a harder question).
    It may be harder for some people to choose right over wrong but that does not mean more or less bechira. It is also harder for some Jews to choose right over wrong. If a Jew grows up in South Dakota and never met a frum Jew in his life it will be very difficult for him to chose and decide to follow the Torah. Someone with a physical handicap is also challenged in different ways. No one would say a Jew in a wheelchair has less bechira than his friend who is not.

    #2021562
    Shimon Nodel
    Participant

    Novelty, the Ramban says that not marrying your sister is a chok. Also, I don’t think it’s necessarily rational to avoid eiver min hachai

    #2021595
    AviraDeArah
    Participant

    Shimon – that’s exactly why goyim can marry their sisters according to many rishonim – baruch shekivanta. There is a rational reason however not to, which is that people have a disgust of such a marriage…it also results in birth defects.

    I think eiver min hachai is very rational; Hashem does not want us to build bad middos in ourselves, and torturing animals or benefitting from their direct unnecessary suffering will do that.

    CT – I should have been clearer. In theory theres no limit to the bechira in and of itselr. The limiting factor is Hashem’s control over our actions, versus what he lets us decide to do. The baalei machshava, including the ramchal and chovos halevavos (I’ll have to get the sources if need be) say that we only control that which has a moral significance. For a Jew, this includes virtually everything we do, because the chovos halevavos says that there’s no such thing as a “pareve” action – everything ultimately is either doing what Hashem wants or the opposite. I realize this may be a chiddush to some and i will imyh get the mekoros when i have some free time.

    It follows then that goyim make far less decisions which have moral implications, therefore a lot of what they think they’re deciding is just Hashem running the world and using them as shluchim.

    #2021607
    Novelty
    Participant

    Of course eiver min hachay is rational. No healthy human believes that causing an animal suffering is a normal thing to do.
    The rational thing to do is to not cause living beings undue suffering.
    Only corrupt humans are okay with cutting a limb off an animal or causing other sorts of suffering.
    A person who can’t see the logic in that is not a person that I would want to know…

    #2021654

    can you say that not stealing and no killing was also a choick back in the days of avraham?

    #2021736
    Novelty
    Participant

    Of course it was. Kayin was the first murder, and he admitted his sin and was punished for it.
    There’s a very good reason that the dor hamabul was wiped out: because they abused each other. The dor haflaga was only dispersed, because though they were evil, they played nicely with one another.
    Free choice has always been.

    In fact, have you ever wondered why we don’t have strong nevuah these days? It’s because the yetzor hara for avodah zara was destroyed. Hashem creates and even playing field to allow room for free choice.
    Avodah zara was a intense level of connection to idols, whereas nevuah was the intense connection to Hashem. In order to remove the yetzor hara for avodah zara, the level of nevuah had to drop.
    If it didn’t we would all run to choose Hashem. That’s the no brainer. Hashem wants us to actively weigh the consequences of our actions and then choose him.

    #2021740
    Shimon Nodel
    Participant

    Farby, you have a geshmake way of spelling ‘choick.’ Not bad.

    To novelty, avirah:

    You’re assuming the entire reason for AMH is that baalei chaim. Aside from being a midah raah, it could be it’s only derabanan.
    From the pashtus of the pasuk, it seems there is a much deeper reason of damo benafsho.

    Additionally, (what I had in mind initially) there are many ways to do AMH without causing pain to the animal. But it would still be the exact same isur.
    For example, if the animal was out cold. Or if it was one of those animals that can regenerate a limb, so eating that limb would be irrelevant to the animal. I can probably think of other examples.

    Regarding sisters, it’s not the mainstream opinion that goyim can marry them. The gemara says a ger cannot marry his sister even after they are both megayer because we don’t want him to enter from chumra to kula (meaning he has a chumra beforehand.) I saw somewhere but don’t remember where, that he can marry his sister from his father but not from his mother.

    My point was that it is possible they do have chukim. Not saying for sure, but it seems that way. How would it impact their bechira if we say they do have chukim?

    #2021778
    Shimon Nodel
    Participant

    To novelty, avirah:

    You’re assuming the entire reason for AMH is that baalei chaim. Aside from being a midah raah, it could be it’s only derabanan.
    From the pashtus of the pasuk, it seems there is a much deeper reason of damo benafsho.

    Additionally, (what I had in mind initially) there are many ways to do AMH without causing pain to the animal. But it would still be the exact same isur.
    For example, if the animal was out cold. Or if it was one of those animals that can regenerate a limb, so eating that limb would be irrelevant to the animal. I can probably think of other examples.

    Regarding sisters, it’s not the mainstream opinion that goyim can marry them. The gemara says a ger cannot marry his sister even after they are both megayer because we don’t want him to enter from chumra to kula (meaning he has a chumra beforehand.) I saw somewhere but don’t remember where, that he can marry his sister from his father but not from his mother.

    My point was that it is possible they do have chukim. Not saying for sure, but it seems that way. How would it impact their bechira if we say they do have chukim?

    #2021803

    Shimon how is it meant to be spelt?

    #2022589
    farfetchedpshat
    Participant

    @CTRebbe
    “There is no such thing as more bechira or less. It is a yes or no question.”

    “It may be harder for some people to choose right over wrong but that does not mean more or less bechira.”

    To my understanding, bechira is the ability to choose between right and wrong, so this seems to be contradictory. Right and wrong might be different depending on a person’s level, but shouldn’t true bechira be an even pull in both directions?

    #2022749
    Shimon Nodel
    Participant

    If it was an even pull, you’d have about the same number of tzadikim as reshaim. This is not the case, however. See in the beginning chapters of Derech Hashem. The Ramchal explains there that after the chet shel etz hadaas, the natural pull is mostly tipped to the side of choshech and gashmi. It’s an uphill battle, but there is siyata dishmaya for those who make the effort

    #2022865
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    We have the neshama and the guf. The neshama has a tendency to strive towards above and the guf for below. Which overpowers which? The question is how can we both get a reward and punishment? If one has tendency to turn to the right, above why a reward? On the other hand, if the tendency is vice versa, why a punishment? They say that the tendency is to do the right thing and in order to reward us Hashem created the yetzer hara and that is for our benefit to get rewarded once we don’t follow him. Shechara ani venava. Now we have a tendency to do bad but we get punished because we also have the yetzer tov and the neshama.

    #2023013

    Reb Eliezer Sheyichye Are we supposed to do mitzvas for the purpose of Schar?

    #2023019
    🍫Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    No, I thought we do mitzvos to give the rebbe nachas 🤨

    Watch out Reb E, that was a loaded question

    #2023018
    AviraDeArah
    Participant

    It’s the first step

    #2023117
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    The Shlah Hakadash says that reward and punishment, the second of the three beliefs which is a summarization from the Baal Haikarim of the Rambam’s thirteen, is a measuring stick of the nachas ruach we provide to Hashem through our performance of the 613 mitzvos. We should do mitzvos for this purpose and reward and punishment will come automatically.

    #2025794
    Ober Chochom
    Participant

    Goyim don’t have bechira like us yidden. They are attached like a magnet to their taivos and desires. We yidden are LUCKY that we have bechira and don’t have to fall to these taivos.

    #2025818
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    Tosfas in Kedushin, (39,2) starting words, machshava, explains that by a Jew a good intention is like action but not a bad intention and opposite is true by a goy. Explains the Maharal with the Meharsha that a Jew is basically good and will follow up in action on his intention to do good but not bad and the opposite by a goy.

    #2026589
    HaLeiVi
    Participant

    Who explains the Maharal?

    #2026590
    HaLeiVi
    Participant

    How do you know that we have free will?

    #2026657
    Ober Chochom
    Participant

    I really don’t chap how you never knew that you have Bchira! Yes, you can choose to good. And you can choose to do bad. Look at last week’s parshah, Hashem gave Eisav Bchira, he could choose to do bad, so he was and for generations on driven to do bad. Yaakov also had Bchira, and he chose to do good, that’s why Klal Yisrael os driven to do good. But we still have free choice, int he haggadha we say we are Bnei Chorin (someone is gonnna say that it’s out of context because we said we were slaves and now we’re free, but we learn from here that we are still free people).

    #2026674
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    If no free will, no sechar veonash, reward and punishment. It is the second belief of three, belief in Hashem, the above and the Torah given from the Heaven, according the Baal Haikarim as he summarizes the thirteen beliefs of the Rambam.

    #2026697
    HaLeiVi
    Participant

    Ober Chochom, I didn’t mean to get you excited. You stated your belief buy still didn’t say how you know.

    Reb Eliezer, you stated the proof — the one and only proof — of there is punishment there must be choice, or else it would not be deserved. Don’t non-Jews get punished as well?

    #2026780
    AviraDeArah
    Participant

    It’s beferush…. first pasuk in parshas re’eh. Hashem says “I have placed before you blessing and curse etc… – uvacharta bachaim, and you shall choose life!

    #2026799
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    That us why goyim only have 7 mitzvos as they have less bechira as stated above in Tosfas in Kedushin.

    #2026802
    HaLeiVi
    Participant

    Choice doesn’t mean free will. Related, but not the same; certainly not beferush.

    Yeah, I figured someone would bring that up. Obviously, once you believe in the idea, you pack it with all related Pesukim. But the idea is based on שכר ועונש, and that’s exactly how the proponents thereof introduce it.

    #2026809
    AviraDeArah
    Participant

    Halevi, what is the difference between the two? You have a choice that is unhindered and not dictated by hashgocha. That choice is limited to good vs bad, which is what we’ve been saying all along. Free will for other matters doesn’t exist.

    #2026906
    Ober Chochom
    Participant

    Why are you always looking to upshlug me? Why are you just saying that “I have no proof”?
    Who are you to decide?

    #2027011
    AviraDeArah
    Participant

    As it happens to be, halevi wasn’t even attacking you, or trying to upshlug you. Asking you for a source is just a question one asks when unconvinced by a statement without textual proof

    #2027010
    AviraDeArah
    Participant

    Halevi, chazal also say “הכל צפוי והרשות נתונה”.
    Are you bothered by why the rishonim use a logical proof instead of pesukim, maamarei chazal etc? They do that for a number of issues – the rambam in moreh nevuchim is trying to explain everything from a philosophical perspective; he isn’t trying to source hashkofos.

    Ober chochom – if you’re going to take things personally on an anonymous forum, it might not be in your best emotional interest to participate. I get a lot of personal attacks for my statements on “the big three” (zionism, MO, and chabad) but it doesn’t bother me. Partially because it’s an online forum, as well as because in my line of work I have to deal with all forms of disrespect and bad attitudes.

    #2027315
    HaLeiVi
    Participant

    Avira, I’m not bothered by anything. I am pointing out that being that the whole basis of free will is derived from S’char V’Onesh, and that therefore is applies to anyone who is subject to S’char v’Onesh. If you expect Nazis to be burning in Gehenom you have to assume that they had a choice.

    And so, I began by asking and you answered accordingly. My main objective was to build upon your answer.

    And yes, Chazal do say הכל מן השמים חוץ מיראת שמים, and that would seem to imply that our will is completely free. It also says in Bava Basra (16a) that Iyov wanted to claim that our will is predetermined. However, Chazal aren’t really taking on directly the philosophical concept of free, undetermined will. It is the Rambam who solidified that.

    As for הכל צפוי, even though the Rambam does utilize it that way, it isn’t the straightforward meaning. Others don’t take it that way.

    #2027317
    HaLeiVi
    Participant

    in my line of work I have to deal with all forms of disrespect and bad attitudes.

    Cop or teacher?

    #2027371
    AviraDeArah
    Participant

    Halevi, when i say “bothered by” I’m using the yeshivishe expression. As in, “what’s bothering rashi?”. Meaning i thought i understood what prompted you to say whar you said. After your clarification i think i get what you were saying earlier.

    Re, iyov – Iyov was a tzadik who we learn lessons from, not to mean that we follow all of his hava aminas. The fact that he may have been unsure or originally mistaken regarding a certain idea can be explained by the fact that he wasn’t even Jewish according to many shitos. The seforim say that yaakov avinu had “hava aminas” as well regarding hashgocha as being strictly from the top down, until he saw the malachim “olim veyordim bo”, olim first from this eorld, that our actions impact the celestial realms. That maskana is what we go by.

    I think every generation of teachers says that they have the most disrespectful generation ever… And they’re all right! It just keeps getting worse and worse. My students say and do things that the worst of my classmates never would have dreamt of

    #2027418
    HaLeiVi
    Participant

    I think you misunderstood my reference. I am writing that Gemara as an additional reference to the fact that free will is real. As you see, I did not come to refute the idea.

    My points are: it is not openly mentioned in Kesuvim, it has a good basis in Chazal but its full meaning is still not openly discussed, but it is based on logic and that logic applies to everyone.

    #2027431
    HaLeiVi
    Participant

    Halevi, when i say “bothered by” I’m using the yeshivishe expression. As in, “what’s bothering rashi?”.

    I understood. I don’t have that much time to spell out every branch. Besides, usually I’d be doing this from a phone which makes it take even longer. But I used “bothered” back the same way, as in, I don’t have a “Shverekeit”.

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