do I have the right?

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  • #601507

    Heres my question. If I know that a very popular album being sold in the jewish scene has a few songs with parts taken straight off non jewish songs do I have the right to publicize it? I think people have a right to know what they are listening to and I feel that whoever puts out albums like this are being chotei umachatee es harabim…is there a question of hurting someones business.

    I was almost tearing my hair out when my classmates started booming a certain song in my bais yaakov school and everyone started dancing to a song I knew was non Jewish. What do you think?

    #844001
    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    This used to bother me when I was younger. It doesn’t really anymore.

    There is no specific issur of listening to “non-jewish music.” And I’m not sure why you think that particular tune has some issur attached to it. Or inappropriateness.

    Perhaps if you can define it for us without using the words “goyish, non-jewish, shkutzim.” (It will be sort of like playing taboo.)

    I feel like our efforts are better focused in other places (like, I dunno, banishing the sikrikim to Antarctica.)

    #844002
    HaLeiVi
    Participant

    The songs that just happen to be made up by a Jew can also be goyish.

    #844003
    soliek
    Member

    here we go again

    #844004
    Sam2
    Participant

    Who cares if it was non-Jewish? The people buying it are listening to Jewish music.

    Rav Matisyahu Salomon in his Sefer Matnas Chayim (the first one, I think on Mo’adim) has a long thing about non-Jewish music. You’d be shocked at how OK he says it is to turn non-Jewish music Jewish.

    #844005
    amichai
    Participant

    wow, great ques. you are pretty mature to think that way, cause I would think most pple your age, wouldn’t really care. very hard decision because the norm nowadays is to listen to those type of songs.

    #844006
    aidel_maidel
    Participant

    musicaldiginity- it warms my heart to know that there still exists ppl other than I that are really sensitive to the low ‘jewish’ music we have today. and of course you should tell others, if someone sold non kosher meat without anyone realizing u wouldnt be able to publicize it?

    its really sad how everyone lost the taste for real hartzig music like carlebach. i luv listening to his songs and when i turn it on other ppl say ‘i cant stand it’ its nebach how they have such a warped taste in music. they wld rather listen to ….. im not announcing here but there are so many famous composers now that their ‘songs’ are just annoying noise

    #844007
    apushatayid
    Participant

    The torah is not a bill of rights, as such nobody who follows torah and halacha has any “rights” to do anything.

    The better question is, are you permitted to say something, and if yes to whom and what is it that you may say.

    I would think that you are certainly permitted to voice your displeasure with the person or group who released the song(s). Whether you are permitted to tell others and what/how is something your Rav would have to rule on (or call the CC Heritage Foundation hotline).

    #844008
    Shticky Guy
    Participant

    Have you any clue how many frum songs are taken and copied EXACTLY from non Jewish songs? I think for sure it is not lashon hora to repeat ones that are public knowledge to be copied. Many people think that the most high profile (besides Lippa and Country Yossi) is MBD’s Yiddin but I think the most high profile is Breslov’s famous song ‘Rabbi Nachman, Nachman m’Uman…’

    My dad told me that years ago he was at a wedding where the Spinka Rebbe was attending and the band struck up with ‘Those Were The Days’ and the Rebbe was tapping the table in time to the music.

    Its a hard one, seforim say that the Shaar Hanegina is a very high madreiga and music must come from a pure source.

    #844009
    Disrael613
    Member

    I am not sure I understand your issue, is it that the music is using non- jewish lyrics and bad words, or is that the melody was once used in non jewish music? Are we not supposed to be uplifting the physical and non-jewish to a higher level? Maybe Im completely wrong, but in any case ask your rav. IT seems to be a halachic question.

    #844010
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    I’m not sure the issue is the source of the music as much as the type of music. There are some very nice songs whose sources are non-Jewish (the popular tune to Maoz Tzur, for example, is from a German folk song) and some tunes which have Jewish composers, but the beat and overall musical style are directed towards and speak to the most base, animalistic parts of the human soul (nefesh hab’hami).

    I would assume that what you refer to is the latter, since unfortunately that’s what is popular today, even in our Bais Yaakovs.

    I think it’s wonderful that before disclosing this information you are taking into consideration the possibility that it might violate the halachos of loshon horah and hurt someone’s parnassah.

    I would think that there would have to be a toeles to be muttar, and that simply telling your friends that these songs have a non-Jewish source would be pointless. They would probably listen to them anyway, and if not these, others, which are just as bad, regardless of who the composer is.

    If you do have some influence over your friends, the toeles I can think of is to use the fact that they are dancing to the same music as the lowest parts of society dance to, in their clubs and at their parties, to demonstrate how low we have fallen (at least in regard to our musical tastes).

    A teacher who has the genuine respect of your classmates might have a better chance of presenting this argument in an appealing way which could have a positive influence.

    Hatzlocha.

    #844011
    sof davar
    Member

    When dealing with an issur as chamur as lashon horah (especially the type that can hurt another’s parnassa) you cannot be careful enough. You say that the producers of the music are chotei umachti es harabim, but what chet are they causing the people to do? I understand that from a standpoint of hashkafa people have a sensitivity towards listening to music that is based on the music of non-jews. However, to call it a chet might be a stretch. On the other hand, lashon haorah which will cause other’s a financial loss is most certainly a grave chet.

    #844012

    You’d have to publicize that fact for about 80% of all Jewish music. There is absolutely no chet involved in using secular melodies for Jewish music, with the exception of recognizable Gentile religeous tunes like, for instance, “Silent Night”. Chill!

    P.S. I’m sure that some (Health, for instance) will strongly disagree with me. They will be wrong.

    #844013
    soliek
    Member

    the only possible problem i can think of off the top of my head is if hearing it makes you recall the original lyrics and if those are prust then it MIGHT be a problem. again, if you feel so strongly about this why not ask a rav?

    #844014
    BTGuy
    Participant

    In my opinion, if the parts to those songs are now in a Jewish context, then there is no problem.

    If you think about it, how much of music is truly only touched only by Judaism? Even the notes of the scale; unless discovered by a Jew, can we say C, D, E, F, G, A, and B are “treif”?

    If music was used to entertain idolatrous kings, then should we listen at all?

    Suppose the first musical instrument was created and played by a pagan for some sort of worship? Do we not touch musical instruments unless they were invented by a Jew?

    I also understand there are tunes we use in davening that did not spring, 100%, from the Jewish well of culture.

    If the entire CD is now in a Jewish context, then musicians and song writers are using parts of the song for music only.

    Your concern is valid and thought provoking and does not end with music. It carries on to clothing (should we not be wearing robes since the suit was not invented by a Jew, perhaps?, household items (I think it is worth investigating which companies were involved in the holocaust, and these things are known, but how many Jews own things from autos to coffee makers to countless other things which originate not only from the gentile world, but from antisemites).

    #844015
    ED IT OR
    Participant

    the shulchan aruch says that a tune can not be me’tameh, meaning there is nothing wrong with any tune, only lyrics and beat can become shmutz so if they have changed the lyrics you have no problem

    #844016
    ItcheSrulik
    Member

    Please explain what “Goyish” means in this case.

    Do you mean music written by a non-Jew? If so, tell go to Uman and complain to the Rebbe Rabbi Nachman. While you’re there go to Lezhensk. Oh, and skip Maoz Tzur next Channuka too.

    Lyrics written by non-Jew(I doubt that since most Jewish music today doesn’t actually have verses)? So? There are poems in Tanach written by non-Jews — at least one comes to mind.

    Do you mean that they took a passuk and stuck it to a tune that doesn’t fit it at all? If the latter, that’s not “goyish” it’s just annoying.

    popa: Not Antarctica. There are sometimes Jewish researchers there.

    #844017
    mamashtakah
    Member

    To me it would seem that the halachic problem here would be that by telling people, you could be taking away parnassa (current and future) from the musician who made the music, for something that isn’t assur to begin with.

    #844018
    WIY
    Member

    If anyone is an honest observer (not sure how many read this forum) you will notice that whenever the Jewish songs that were taken from non Jewish songs are played (talking about recent songs taken from a certain low life immoral woman in the non Jewish music business) there’s a certain very prust and very wild energy that takes over the dancing. Im not making this up you can see and sense a certain coarseness and prikas ol when the songs are played and the people dance. People act differently by these songs. Watch for it and you will see what I mean.

    I don’t have to ask a shaila because for me its apparent that there is something wrong with this music and it doesn’t bring out anything good in people.

    I can’t speak about slow songs because maybe some of them have some depth, but their fast songs have no place by us and I don’t believe they brought anyone closer to Hashem. These songs are produced to make you dance wild and be crazy they were never intended for Jewish people we have a different purpose in life and we listen to music for a different reason and we dance for a different reason.

    In my opinion it is very wrong to take these songs and make them “Jewish” and the singers who do it are doing something wrong. However they won’t stop because they don’t respect Gedolim and they do their own thing. The music business is not run al pi Torah. Hence groups that perform on TV and goyish songs on cd’s and music videos with girls in them and mixed seating concerts and whatever else that goes on in the music business.

    #844019
    zahavasdad
    Participant

    At most FRUM jewish weddings when the Chosson and Kallah are introduced for the first time, there is a tune that is played

    It is either The Final Countdown by Europe or Baker Street by Gerry Rafferty

    You can look them up and hear them and you will recognize them immediately

    #844020
    cinderella
    Participant

    “There is no specific issur of listening to “non-jewish music.” And I’m not sure why you think that particular tune has some issur attached to it. Or inappropriateness. “

    It is inappropriate. It has nothing to do with who writes the song, it’s the song. And most of their songs today are blatantly expressing utter pritzus. Transforming a song that promotes such things is wrong. There doesn’t have to be an issur on it for it to be wrong. Write your own music.

    It’s a sensitivity which it sounds like musicaldignity possesses (and you don’t). It’s just another form of assimilation.

    #844021
    popcorn
    Member

    to Musical dignity…..there are many Jewish songs that we sing that is derived from an original non-jewish tune. You wouldn’t know it…but even many tunes for niggunim originated from folk songs or songs from the town, province or country from where the chassidus started. You probably dance at weddings to the song “Yidden, Yidden kimpt Aheim” by Mordechai ben David…well, that original song and tune comes from a Old German Rock Band. Someone showed me the video of this Rock Band singing their song and you would be quite surprised. However, I agree with Disrael613….what is wrong that we take something unholy and turn it into Holy. We are here on this world to elevate the unholy to holy.

    #844022
    soliek
    Member

    we have this discussion every few months, can someone please post links to threads where this issue has already been dealt with?

    #844023
    apushatayid
    Participant

    Music should be defined by the effect it has on people. If it has a positive effect, it is good, a negative effect, it is bad.

    #844024
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    It is inappropriate. It has nothing to do with who writes the song, it’s the song. And most of their songs today are blatantly expressing utter pritzus. Transforming a song that promotes such things is wrong. There doesn’t have to be an issur on it for it to be wrong. Write your own music.

    It’s a sensitivity which it sounds like musicaldignity possesses (and you don’t). It’s just another form of assimilation.

    Well said.

    #844025

    Cinderella…I wouldn’t say most of their songs are utter pritzus. Yes there are some; maybe too many, but certainly not all.

    There are many good quality inocent songs, that many enjoy listening too…you can’t just say it’s inapropriate…

    I’ts hard to take your warning of inapropriateness and assimiliation too seriously, afterall you call yourself “Cinderella” after a very non-Jewish folk tale.

    Cinderella goes to a party with plenty of mixed dancing, non Jewish music, (very un tznius)…not to mention the “black magic” used to transform a pumpkin into a carriage 🙂 But I guess Non-Jewish fairy tales are fine with you….

    #844026
    Parshaman
    Member

    If you want to be really frum you can look at Rav Moshe who says Meikar Hadin we shouldnt really have ANY music nowadays except for at a real simcha like a wedding. obviously most people (including myself) do not follow that, however the point is you shouldnt stop people from listening to this type of music especially since its much better than actually listening to the real song.

    #844027

    Wow. I know I must have hit a very contoaversial subject and I can tell that I am speaking to a lot of people who have very different hashgachos then me and my school and many who probably listen to non jewish music on a regular basis. I probably agree with WIY and cinderella the most on this issue if I would try to explain my view. I was brought up and I believe that there is music that can uplift and there is music that can bring you down regardless of the lyrics. Many of my friends dont understand this and thats why it kills me to see them dancing to these songs when they probably dont understand what its doing to them and are exposed to it because some person wanted to make a buck. People have the right to know what they are listening to.

    I personally dont like the argument that many songs come from non jewish songs whatever. I definitely dont agree with the people who brought in that music into our community but not every non jewish song will bring you down. For example as so many people mentioned “yidden yidden” is a song that I do not believe could bring anyone down although I dont think that people should start going through non jewish music to decide which songs dont bring you down because most people dont have the sensitivity to decided that – including me. Thats why there is a concept of not listening to non jewish music.

    I dont think people today are on the level to go out into the world of lowliness and pick out the unholy (an understatement) and make it holy. Believe me by the time you finish bringing that song to “holiness” you would have brought yourself down a nice notch in that area.

    Regarding this question, before I found out these were non jewish songs and my friends were obsessing over them I remember telling my friend – “this song does not sound jewish” She shrugged me off but I found out to be right. There IS a difference. Its not the mere knowledge that its a non jewish song but its what these songs can do to someone. Before people found out that the MBD song was non jewish I dont think anyone suspected it before If they did not previously know the song from which it came. When I said it I thought I was talking about a jewish composer who composed a song to bring people down. (not an uncommon occurrence).

    Im sorry because I know I have been ranting but this subject happens to be one that bothers me endlessly in this day and age. I probably will have to ask a Rav or I like the advice of telling a teacher. Thank you for your input.

    #844028
    popcorn
    Member

    There’s a Frum girls Drama program in a major city in U.S.A. that takes place during the year on Sundays (lots of Bais Yaakov type girls). They practice a whole year and perform in June. The Drama Head choses Broadway musicals and gears the whole script to a Jewish theme….Like “the Sound of Music” is called the “Sound of Torah” and the musical “Annie” is called “Chanie” and so on. These are enjoyable performances infused with Yiddishe themes sung to original music of the Broadway show. The Lyrics are adjusted to match the Jewish storyline. On performance day the Giant Auditorium is packed to capacity with Frum Mothers and Daughters from all walks of life and everyone enjoys the show. Here is a situation where you take something unholy and turn it into holy. It seems that there’s a one-upmanship on who could be frummer than the other…Between all the bans going on and people scrutinizing how frum one should or could be…it will only bring about Sinas Chinom when we surely need more AHAVAS YISROEL going on!

    #844029
    cinderella
    Participant

    Mike- I really hope you’re joking. Fairy tales and inappropriate music are 2 very different things. Would you read your kids fairy tales? Would you play them music that promotes pritzus?

    #844030
    NYBD
    Member

    musicaldignity: the reason the song you were listening to didn’t “sound” Jewish is because there weren’t any trumpets playing (p. s. this is my personal theory).

    #844031
    yitayningwut
    Participant

    mikehall and cinderella –

    I suspect you are talking about two completely different genres of music.

    #844032
    WIY
    Member

    popcorn

    Very poor comparison. The Jewish music of today is taking songs from the lowest of the low of non Jewish music and is taking very aggressive wild types of songs (besides for the nicer ones which is a separate question entirely) the fast songs are prust, were written with low intentions in mind with all kinds of inappropriate dance moves and all that. There is no way to make that holy. Even if there were, which I sincerely doubt, it would take a Tzaddik to do. Maybe have Rav Kanievsky do it, not the “holy” people of todays music industry.

    #844033
    NYBD
    Member

    mikehall12382: Indeed a great point. 🙂

    #844034

    “the reason the song you were listening to didn’t “sound” Jewish is because there weren’t any trumpets playing (p. s. this is my personal theory). “

    I hope your kidding.

    #844035
    writersoul
    Participant

    Is there a copyright issue?

    #844036
    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    Ok. Popa’s back.

    So far the argument being made is that these songs somehow have a bad effect on you, because they are rooted in pritzus, or I don’t know what.

    Now, we can easily say that that is unrelated to whether it is originally “non-jewish.” For example, I don’t imagine you would say that about all songs composed by people who aren’t jewish (aren’t frum?).

    Is it:

    Choice A- the tune? Well, that should apply to many songs written by frum composers.

    Choice B- the original words? Interesting theory. Is that only a problem if you know the original words? (What if the original was chassidishe, but then someone made prust words?)

    Choice C- the composer? That is just bizarre.

    In any event, all these problems don’t seem to have anything to do with “non-jewish;” rather with the specifics of the songs or specific composer.

    So, you would really need to know which of the three choices was the problem, and then how it applied to that song.

    It is inappropriate. It has nothing to do with who writes the song, it’s the song. And most of their songs today are blatantly expressing utter pritzus. Transforming a song that promotes such things is wrong. There doesn’t have to be an issur on it for it to be wrong. Write your own music.

    It’s a sensitivity which it sounds like musicaldignity possesses (and you don’t). It’s just another form of assimilation.

    I suppose I can’t respond to that. You have said it isn’t any of the possibilities, but that it is wrong anyway, and that I apparently don’t have the sensitivity.

    Well, not every sensitivity you have is correct. Sometimes it is just shtus.

    #844037
    yitayningwut
    Participant

    I agree with Popa.

    #844038
    oomis
    Participant

    So the music is non-Jewish – so what? By taking that tune and turning it into a Jewish-themed and inspired song, that music has been elevated.

    #844039

    Cinderella…if I felt the non Jewish music was harmless, I would let my kids hear it.

    If I felt the fairy tale was appropriate I would let my kids

    Read it.

    I prefer to make my decisions based on specifics, not an entire genre of music or literature.

    My point was to stress how silly it is for you to say it is bad just because it’s not Jewish or derived from a non Jewish source. I found it funny how based on your name you were able to rationalize that non Jewish fairy tales are ok, because as I mentioned the majority of them contain very untznius elements…

    It just sounds like if you enjoy non Jewish things such as fairytales it is OK, but if it’s

    Something you don’t care for its bad…can’t have non Jewish “art” both ways.

    #844040
    zahavasdad
    Participant

    Cinderella, I hope you know you name comes from a NON-JEWISH Grimms Fairy Tale called Cinderella

    The Grimms have lots of other Fairly tales some well known like Snow White and the Sever Dwarfs and some not so well known INCLUDING an ANTI-SEMITIC one called The Jew Among Thorns.

    #844041
    Sam2
    Participant

    I’m gonna second what Popa said (well third it actually, since Yitay beat me to it), but I agree he could have said it a bit more nicely.

    #844042
    WIY
    Member

    Oomis1105

    In theory it sounds good but in practice it doesn’t usually work. I would think that for one to be able to do this one would have to be holy in the first place. Like a Rebbe or Gadol.

    The songs that are being “elevated” are songs by women. Can you explain yo me how it came to be that these Jewish so called frum composers heard these songs in the first place to then be able to make it “elevated” and Jewish?

    It seems clear to me that people in the Jewish music world are listening to non Jewish music kol isha and all the other filth that you hear by listening to non Jewish music. These people have polluted their neshamos and lost their sensitivity for what is fine decent and holy they are in NO position to “elevate” any of these songs. You have to be elevated to elevate. Most people in the Jewish music scene are not elevated people. The few who are surprisingly never use non Jewish songs. I wonder why.

    #844043

    zahavasdad…couldn’t say it better myself…

    I wish before people started spouting off how this or that is not acceptable and how others are wrong; they take a look at what they are doing…

    Just for the record, I have no problem with non-Jewish music or fairy tales as a whole…I make my decision based on language and content.

    #844044
    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    …what Popa said… but I agree he could have said it a bit more nicely.

    Me too thinks he could have said it more nicely.

    #844045
    cinderella
    Participant

    Mike- my point was not the source of the music, it was what the music portrays. I have no problem with non-Jewish music that is appropriate. I don’t care who wrote the music. It’s the lyrics. And a tune that was tainted by disgusting words has no place in a Jewish home or a Bais Yaakov.

    zahavasdad- I know where my screenname comes from. I happen to think that the story of Cinderella is harmless as are most other fairy tales. I don’t care that the author may have written other, inappropriate books. Again, my point is not the source of the music but the music itself.

    #844046
    zahavasdad
    Participant

    Actually most of the Fairy Tales are dark with people dying, stealing bad peopel, People starving etc.

    They were written in a differnet time when life was darker in general and tough and the fairy tales reflected that.

    Most of the Grimms Fairy tales are very dark, other than the famous ones even Snow White has a witch who wants to kill her.

    Do you know the kids game “Ring Around the Rosey”?

    Did you know the game is actually about the Bubonic Plague?

    Ring Around the Rosey is a dark ring you get when you get the plague.

    A posey was thought to be a cure of the plague

    And Ashes Ashes we all fall down, means you die.

    #844047

    WIY – “These people have polluted their neshamos and lost their sensitivity for what is fine decent and holy they are in NO position to “elevate” any of these songs. You have to be elevated to elevate. Most people in the Jewish music scene are not elevated people. The few who are surprisingly never use non Jewish songs. I wonder why.”

    Could not have said it better myself

    #844048
    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    The songs that are being “elevated” are songs by women. Can you explain yo me how it came to be that these Jewish so called frum composers heard these songs in the first place to then be able to make it “elevated” and Jewish?

    It seems clear to me that people in the Jewish music world are listening to non Jewish music kol isha and all the other filth that you hear by listening to non Jewish music. These people have polluted their neshamos and lost their sensitivity for what is fine decent and holy they are in NO position to “elevate” any of these songs. You have to be elevated to elevate. Most people in the Jewish music scene are not elevated people. The few who are surprisingly never use non Jewish songs. I wonder why.

    Interesting. First, let us compare this to your previous statement:

    you will notice that whenever the Jewish songs that were taken from non Jewish songs are played (talking about recent songs taken from a certain low life immoral woman in the non Jewish music business) there’s a certain very prust and very wild energy that takes over the dancing.

    and:

    the fast songs are prust, were written with low intentions in mind with all kinds of inappropriate dance moves and all that.

    Seems to me, that either you have listened to the songs yourself, or else you have been mekabel lashon hara about the jewish singers.

    In any event, I cannot concur with your presumption that all the Jewish singers must have listened to those songs. Likely, for at least some of the Jewish singers, someone else told them about it, and got them sheet music or something.

    In any event, I don’t really think it is relevant whether they Jewish singers listened to it. I don’t agree with the premise that just because they listened to a prust song, that nothing holy can come from these jewish singers.

    Moreover, I retract my agreement that I could have said it nicer. I was accused of having assimilated, and I responded to that perfectly appropriately.

    #844049
    cinderella
    Participant

    zahavasdad- I’m talking about pritzus and you are talking about the Bubonic plague. Where’s the correlation?

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