August 20, 2013 6:58 am at 6:58 am #610405
Introduction: I am an American living in E”Y for many years, and I have b”H a large family. I work full-time, yet have been having a very hard time making ends meet.
One of the things that get me through each month is the governments children allowance. I’m not talking luxuries, I’m taking basic food.
Yesh Atid now managed to cut those children’s allowances drastically, and the cut will be hitting me very hard.
Dov Lipman, as a member of Yesh Atid, is giving legitimacy to this cut which will cause severe difficulties to myself and thousands of other Chareidi Jews.
If he would come out and ask forgiveness for this, it would be one thing. But he didn’t. So my question is, is this a case of “echteh ve’ashuv”? Do I have to forgive him for the financial difficulties he has helped cause me?August 20, 2013 8:53 am at 8:53 am #972268
The cuts were part of a general need to cut the government budget and move responsibility to civil society. I have found that one of the problems these programs cause, besides (without regard to your individual case) encouraging people not to work, is that people shirk their duties to their fellows. They develop an attitude that “the state will take care of him” and so long as he is meeting his basic needs he does not need to be helped to find a decent job (many of which are filled by word of mouth, through connections, etc.). On the contrary, he, in the view of many, should be happy that he can more or less get along without having to work. This is especially true in the Chareidi community where there is an ideology that all men should learn full-time whether or not they are suited for it (or for what is available at their ages and subject to the restrictions of the laws covering various benefits).
Perhaps you should thank MK Lipman (and this without knowing what input he had and whether or not he was able to lower the cuts). The cuts may compel the powers who think they are in your community to do something.August 20, 2013 9:35 am at 9:35 am #972269
Beautiful speech. however in your haste to find fault with the Chareidi community you must have missed the part where I said that I work full-time.
“This is especially true in the Chareidi community where there is an ideology that all men should learn full-time whether or not they are suited for it”
Being that you obviously know nothing about what actually happens in the chareidi community except for the falsehoods being fed to you, maybe you should refrain from commenting on these issues until you’ve actually spoken to same Chareidim and hear the truth.August 20, 2013 12:16 pm at 12:16 pm #972270August 20, 2013 12:19 pm at 12:19 pm #972271DaMosheParticipant
No, because any government money you get is a gift. They have no obligation to support you. If you don’t make enough money, either find a second job, have your wife find a job, or cut down on your expenses.
The financial difficulties don’t come from him. Hashem allocates a certain amount of money for you no matter what the government does. If it’s not enough for you, daven for Hashem to give you more.August 20, 2013 1:09 pm at 1:09 pm #972272
Basically the way the government in Israel works whoever controls the government controls the funds. Obviously the party you chose to vote for is not in the government and therefore your funding was reduced. If anything you might have to thank Lipman for what you do have.
In America instead of forming our own party the Jews try to keep working relationships with each party and thus try to have some input with each party. If the Charedi tzibur cannot survive without these funds perhaps it’s time to disband the charedi parties and start to join the mainstream parties where they would carry a lot of clout in a primary with the numbers they make up.
In addition I read all over the frum websites that there was a massive campaign to raise the money the charedim were losing do to the budget cuts and distribute them to the charedi public – what happened to this fund? Hatzlacha!August 20, 2013 1:22 pm at 1:22 pm #972273YMIhereParticipant
Avi K —
If only the cuts were indeed needed to balance the budget. Halevai. In fact government programs for chareidim consume a smaller proportion of Israel’s state budget than the chareidi population forms as a percentage of the general population. Yesh Atid’s program is not intended to balance the budget, nor to foster “responsibility” in “civil society.” Yesh Atid’s aim is to destroy the chareidi community’s way of life.
I personally will not forgive any Torah-observant Jew helping to give religious cover to Yesh Atid’s monstrous, anti-Semitic program.
But that’s just me.August 20, 2013 1:32 pm at 1:32 pm #972274
I have to agree with Avi K. The government is in no way chayiv to pay anyone a red cent (or brass Agurah). In the times of Chazal, they would be denouncing people who depended on Tzedaka or government handouts (which mostly didn’t exist) in the streets for not taking care of their children. Feel lucky that Amoraim such as Rav Chisda are not responding, as they would be even stronger about it.
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So no, you do not have to be Mochel, as he did nothing wrong Al Pi Halacha.August 20, 2013 1:42 pm at 1:42 pm #972275NaftushMember
Shraga, why vacillate about MK Lipman only? Others are gouging us Israelis for less-noble reasons without a moment of reflection, let alone regret. Start with employers who shove as much of your (under)pay as possible into “benefits,” for which you don’t get pension credit. Continue with the Lands Administration and its artificial inflation of land prices. Keep going to the builder of your apartment, who jacked up its price by shuffling his work crews from project to project instead of finishing the work swiftly. Now look at the ports, classic examples of monopoly overcharging and inefficiency that raises the prices of all imports. Closer to home is the fellow who fixes your appliances and lets you pay cash under the table. You’re paying his taxes on top of yours and mine. Etc. Etc. Why single out MK Lipman?August 20, 2013 2:50 pm at 2:50 pm #972276
Let’s ask an additional question, and then perhaps we could help. What is your (approximate) income, and what are your expenses? Does your wife work (Most people in the US need a 1 1/2 – two income home to make ends meet)? Perhaps you are spending on things that are not “basic needs”, and you just don’t realize it. Do you keep a budget, or a ledger of what you spend every month?August 20, 2013 3:05 pm at 3:05 pm #972277
So according to some of the esteemed people here, if someone was about to give you money as a gift, and I would show up and convince them not to give it to you, you would have no problem with that?
Yeah, right.August 20, 2013 3:23 pm at 3:23 pm #972278rationalfrummieMember
^ I would be annoyed, but I wouldn’t say you did an aveirah, or need to do teshuvah!August 20, 2013 3:26 pm at 3:26 pm #972279DaMosheParticipant
There’s a difference between not liking something and having to forgive someone for doing something halachically wrong.August 20, 2013 3:43 pm at 3:43 pm #972280
What is your (approximate) income, and what are your expenses? Does your wife work (Most people in the US need a 1 1/2 – two income home to make ends meet)? Perhaps you are spending on things that are not “basic needs”, and you just don’t realize it. Do you keep a budget, or a ledger of what you spend every month?
I bet you have extra money somewhere and you don’t know it, because you (as most of us) are not a financial expert, and have not had your finances looked at by such an expert.August 20, 2013 3:48 pm at 3:48 pm #972281
1. I know about what I wrote regarding the Chareidi (and those National Religious who have been influenced by Chareidi Socialism) first-hand.
2. I saw the amounts of the cuts.The amounts per family are small. However, over all recipients (every mother who has the legal status of an Israeli resident regardless of income) the saving come to approximately NIS 2.7 billion approx.$750 million). If this small amount is so critical to you, why not cut out non-essentials, such as an Internet connection? If you and your family have cell phones you can cancel them too. They are every expensive and are often a nuisance.In addition, you might take a second job, your wife might work, etc.
YM, Yesh Atid since when is living on handouts the Tora way? On the contrary, Chazal call this “bread of shame”. The Tora way is to find people jobs. Tzedaka is for people who cannot work.August 20, 2013 4:11 pm at 4:11 pm #972282
Shraga- did you say thank you to the government every year when you received the gift? Obviously I hope you get your gift back but as others have explained already your gift was coming at the expenses of others who might have needed the same gift. I truly believe that the charedi parties never looked at it as a gift but rather as a right, and had they looked at it like you as a gift and said thank you there is a good chance you would still be receiving it.
And before saying that the attitude of the charedi parties is what the gedolim decide MK Porush recently stated that they do not consult the gedolim on every move . Indeed he admitted he did not ask a gadol before embarrassing the charedim by handcuffing himself to the podium in the Knesset.August 20, 2013 4:48 pm at 4:48 pm #972283whats_in_a_nameMember
The responses did not go the way OP was hoping for.August 20, 2013 6:03 pm at 6:03 pm #972284yaakov doeParticipant
Why pick on Dov Lipman? He’s a well intentioned man who is somewhat misguided. He didn’t develop the plan or control the political party. He thinks that the can do the impossible, unite all factions of Israeli society.August 20, 2013 7:42 pm at 7:42 pm #972285MDGParticipant
While I understand what Yesh Atid is doing, that they want people to become financially responsible. Their method of pulling the plug so fast is not responsible.August 20, 2013 8:01 pm at 8:01 pm #972286
YMIhere, partially, the Charidim provoked them. Partially, there is a limit as to how long they”ll support all the Chareidim.August 20, 2013 8:13 pm at 8:13 pm #972287
Shraga- for some reason the moderator didn’t let my last post go through so ill just wish you hatzlacha and let you know that there is hope as the peace plans being negotiated now will probably cause Bennet and his party to leave the coalition so if the charedi parties could stop demonizing lapid and lipman there is a possibility they could join the collation and have your funds restored.
p.s. when they do say thank you for the “GIFT”August 21, 2013 5:16 am at 5:16 am #972288
Herzog explained that Lapid is simply using populist means to promote his agenda and his actions are not backed in fact. He adds that accusations the monthly payments encourage unemployment are baseless, for the huge monthly payments that were once reality were cancelled in 2003. Today he explains the money permits families to help feed the children and in the best of cases, permits putting small sums away for the future.”
But what does this guy know? After all, he was nothing more than a minister. Obviously he wouldn’t know as much about the situation as the brilliant members of the coffee-room!August 21, 2013 5:45 am at 5:45 am #972289
I was gonna disagree with the OP. But I changed my mind. I agree with OP.
OP is working; he should not be faulted for not being able to earn enough. And while the child subsidies were always a gift, I think they are being wrongfully taken away, because of the following:
Government tax and welfare policy is generally based on capacity and need, balanced by availability of social resources. A child subsidy is very good policy, since it targets need very accurately. Of course, it is balanced by the availability of social resources, as AviK points out.
But this was sold to the country as a way of getting at the chareidim and arabs, since they are the ones who have large families. This wasn’t done out of careful consideration of needs and resources–it was done out of not caring about the “other” (or really out of wanting to hurt the “other”).
The charge that chareidim are the parties who forced these subsidies actually proves the point. Society shouldn’t have to be forced to realize that large families have more need than small families with the same income.
Even if you think the chareidi kollel system is wrong or untenable, and that there shouldn’t be kollel payments or army exemptions, that really shouldn’t affect how you think about child subsidies.August 21, 2013 5:46 am at 5:46 am #972290zahavasdadParticipant
I agree with the posters, the handouts are not a RIGHT, they are a privilidge.
I assure you 150 years ago if you had 10 kids, there was no government subsidy. it is not Halacha moshe m’sinai that you are entitled to government benefitsAugust 21, 2013 5:51 am at 5:51 am #972291
First of all, the allowances go to all mothers regardless of family income. As for Herzog, he is a socialist and the socialists have always used government (= taxpayers’) money as bribes to stay in power and retain control over people. This is why the flip side is always that they reserve the good jobs for the party faithful (anashim/unzer menschen). Being self-supporting means being free.August 21, 2013 6:13 am at 6:13 am #972292
Is there anyone here that is even trying to be a drop objective.
Do you have any idea what the Tax Burden on an Isreai Worker is?
A non-worker pays a huge VAT tax.
A tax that would get even Democrats to vote Republican if Obama said he wanted to implement it.
On top of that there is a myriad of other taxes.
If Shraga18 works he’s gotta pay them (or his boss pays them for him) all of them.
On top of that the price of food in Isreal is more expensive then in the US (and a godd part of the reason is what again the Government)!
And Shraga 18 is supposed to have looked at the measly pittance he got back in the form of child support as a gift?
Are you nuts?
How about the Isreali Government stop funding the theaters in Tel Aviv to the tune of 40%, stop funding every liberal stupidity that ir-religous liberal Jews feel compelled to fund then lower their ridicuous VAT taxes to say 5% instead of the 18% (somewhere around there thats what it is now) and we’ll call it even.
The Government can keep thier child checks and my family can actually afford to buy food.
And yeah, VAT has to be payed by everybody including Chareidim who actually pay more of it becuase they buy more food since the large families eat more then 1-2 kids and a puppy.
So when some Tzedaka orginization gives you some money to buy basic groceries for kids to eat, close to 20% of that goes back to the government.
( But of course I would’nt be surprised if Lipman and Lapid decided to pass an exemption on dog and cat food as a measure to curb tzar balei chayim right after lipman finishes with his duck bill to protect the ducks)August 21, 2013 7:04 am at 7:04 am #972293
PBA and Ben Levi, thanks for the first logical posts in this thread. Unfortunately, many posters will ignore facts and logic as long as they can bash chareidim.
Kikar HaShabbat quotes Bituach Leumi as saying that thirty THOUSAND children who are close to the poverty line, will now be pushed under it.August 21, 2013 9:02 am at 9:02 am #972294zahavasdadParticipant
You expected an amen corner.
If you worked for a company and your boss cut your pay, because business was slower , Would you react the same?
You are not entitled to you pay and your boss has the right to cut it at anytime for any reason. The government is no different.
I am still amazed how many people feel its their RIGHT to a government handoutAugust 21, 2013 9:09 am at 9:09 am #972295sh9888Member
SHRAGA – I’M BRITISH AND I LIVE IN ISRAEL. ITS THE SAME STORY FOR EVERYONE.
MONEY FROM THE GOVERNMENT IS NOT A GIFT! WE PAY TAXES!
Throughout the western world the idea of child benefits is that children are not to blame for their parents financial state, and (in Israel) it is meant to cover their basic necessities such as food. (In England it covers a lot more).
Taking this away is a crime against innocent children throughout the country. It has nothing to do with chareidim. There are plenty of non frum families with 2 incomes who cannot make ends meet.
Life in Israel is VERY VERY EXPENSIVE – maybe Lapid can wrack his uneducated brains to do something about that!August 21, 2013 12:33 pm at 12:33 pm #972296
“MONEY FROM THE GOVERNMENT IS NOT A GIFT! WE PAY TAXES”. So if the allowances were kept at the old levels taxes would have to be raised even higher. Maybe it would be better to get rid of them entirely and save the administrative costs. At the very least, benefits should have an income test. As I pointed out in a previous post, the child allowances are given to ALL mothers who have Israeli resident status even if they are multi-millionaires.
Life in Israel is expensive but people seem to have many luxuries. Someone (such as myself) who does not have a cell phone is regarded with wonder. Computers are also nearly universal – even in the Chareidi community despite all of the rulings. Cars are common as are foreign vacations with some travel agents even offering “glatt kosher” trips (before the recent troubles I expected to see ads for Pesach seders in Egypt in addition to the ones in Europe and on cruises). How do they do it? They work – and very often both parents work. Those who do not want to work or want to work in a not very renumerative field (as do most Chareidim who work at something) have an obligation to first forego luxuries – including the expensive and annoying cell phones – before asking for public assistance.August 21, 2013 1:26 pm at 1:26 pm #972297
PBA: Even if you agree that there might be reason to provide subsidies for children, there is no inherent right for those with children to demand subsidies.
And yes, the Charaidim are the ones who pushed for the huge child subsidy that existed (and was designed to benefit Charaidim). Now that they are out of power, the subsidy is being removed.
I do feel bad for Shraga (as he is suffering due to the cuts), and would love to help him out. Since he would rather argue than work on his finances, I feel less bad. My final suggestion is go find a financial planner that can help you.
A quote from the Jerusalem Post, January 2013:
The numbers were stark. Of all bank account holders in Israel, 52 percent went into overdraft last year, half of them remaining in the red on a regular basis. Not counting mortgages, half the public was in debt of one sort or another.
Fully 20% of them were late in their bill payments, and many said they would not be able to deal with an unexpected one-time cost of NIS 8,000.
More than simply a snapshot of poor financial planning, the data paints a picture of a public that lacks basic financial literacy, a problem experts worry can have implications for the broader economy.
(Emphasis added)August 21, 2013 1:42 pm at 1:42 pm #972298rabbiofberlinParticipant
As I am not presently living in Eretz Yisroel, I am reluctant to join this thread. However, one thing must be pointed out. Governments all ove the world are struggling with the size and scope of welfare payments,that have grown to huge amounts everywhere and are being abused.The present Israeli government is trying to cope with this-as is the Us gvt, the british govt, etc….It is not a measure directed at chareidim at all- although, as chareidim have larger families, they may bear the brunt of this. One simple solution; do not rely on the govt. find work!August 21, 2013 1:54 pm at 1:54 pm #972299
Gavra: Certainly there is no inherent right to subsidies in the abstract. But there is an inherent right in a democracy to be treated fairly by the majority.
And when the majority goes against its usual values specifically to target a disliked minority, that is unfair.
Here, the usual value is wanting to make a tax and welfare system that takes into account the needs of the payers and recipients. Children obviously have needs, and large families obviously have more needs than small ones. But they specifically ignore that because they dislike the chareidim. I think that’s unfair.August 21, 2013 3:24 pm at 3:24 pm #972300sh9888Member
“Life in Israel is expensive but people seem to have many luxuries. “
Rubbish.August 21, 2013 3:52 pm at 3:52 pm #972301charliehallParticipant
Charedim in America overwhelmingly vote for politicians who would do the same thing to the American social safety net that Lapid is trying to do to that of Israel — with the support of rabbinic leaders.August 21, 2013 3:55 pm at 3:55 pm #972302
Gavra: Certainly there is no inherent right to subsidies in the abstract. But there is an inherent right in a democracy to be treated fairly by the majority.
And when the majority goes against its usual values specifically to target a disliked minority, that is unfair.
I would have agreed with you if not for the fact that the generous subsidies were put in place by the Charaidim in past years to funnel money towards their own at the expense of the rest of Israel (FYI, the settlers have the same issue).
Second, I’m not certain that supporting children is the “usual values” of the Israeli state. The Kibbutz system (which IMHO would be fair to call “usual values” of the Israeli state) has/had group raising of children and the children working towards the needs of the Kibbutz. This is certainly true when those with large families overwhelmingly would replace the state if possible (both the Arabs & Charaidim with a Theocracy). If anything, the state has the responsibility to promote values held by the state.
(Of couse, this is the “liberal democracy” argument, not the actual or Torah point of view.)August 21, 2013 3:56 pm at 3:56 pm #972303
Charedim in America overwhelmingly vote for politicians who would do the same thing to the American social safety net that Lapid is trying to do to that of Israel — with the support of rabbinic leaders.
And if we were doing so in a way that specifically targeted groups we didn’t like, that would be just as problematic.
If an American politician would run on a campaign of defunding the African American community, and would propose welfare cuts for “people who live in Harlem”, I can well assure you that I would not vote for that politician.August 21, 2013 4:02 pm at 4:02 pm #972304
The question is do you need to forgive the people in your land who followed the advice of the satmar rebebe shlita and did not vote in the election. Had all eligible chareidim voted according to most opinions the charedi parties would have had 2 more seats and perhaps one would have come at the expense of yesh atid so 2 more for the chareidim and one less for yesh atid might have pushed the powers to include the chareidim and keep the child subsidy where it was.August 21, 2013 4:03 pm at 4:03 pm #972305
Yes. I think the fact that they needed to be lobbied for by chareidim only makes it worse. If a govt is providing welfare, how could it possibly not account for the number of children in a household?
Something that irrational is almost per se discrimination. And when it is effected against two hated minorities, yeah, that’s wrong.
I’m not arguing in favor of incentivizing having kids (which most societies say they want to do). I’m arguing that the state does take an active interest in providing a safety net for people and kids are people. For them to not account for the kids is bizarre and seeming proof of discrimination.
And I’m not arguing what sort of welfare the torah would want. I’m saying that in the context of providing welfare, the Torah and anyone would certainly not want discrimination against minorities.August 21, 2013 4:07 pm at 4:07 pm #972306
Sh9888, do you live in Israel? From what I hear (I do live in Israel), with the exception of religious education (whose cost is destroying frum Americans economically),prices in Israel are higher than in America. However, people do have luxuries. Cell phones are a luxury. Internet connections are a luxury. Vacations abroad are not only a luxury but according to most poskim assur – and the Pesach seders there are chillulei Hashem. The latter include “glatt kosher” plans. I seriously doubt that they interest many secular people.August 21, 2013 4:17 pm at 4:17 pm #972307
I’m not arguing in favor of incentivizing having kids (which most societies say they want to do). I’m arguing that the state does take an active interest in providing a safety net for people and kids are people.
You have changed your argument from the cuts to the original subsidies, and I believe that works in my favor.
I think my point is that the state feels they are currently incentivizing children (which is not something they want to pay for, and was an unintended effect (by the state, not the Charaidim)). This cost was OK (as long as the Charaidim voted with the party in power), but is now overwhelming other parts of the existing safety net (such as apartments for veterans). This caused the social justice protests (and is what brought Lapid into power). Therefore the subsidies were cut back to be more in line with what would benefit the most people who do service and support the state.
Here in America, we are in a similar situation. The safety net of Medicare/Medicaid is taking up funds so quickly that it is causing us to not be able to uphold other parts (such as Head Start, which is being cut due to lack of funding).August 21, 2013 4:44 pm at 4:44 pm #972308
Your posts offering advice were noted and appreciated. Although we may disagree on the political aspects of the cuts, you did show yourself to be a mentch.
Suffice it to say that I have done all the things you recommend. But sometimes a person is just meant to go through a hard time. So we daven and work on our Bitachon.
ThanksAugust 21, 2013 7:55 pm at 7:55 pm #972309
Ben Levi, so cut the taxes and the hand-outs! The Chareidim would not be happy with that.August 21, 2013 8:36 pm at 8:36 pm #972310ToiParticipant
Avi k said
“regarding the Chareidi (and those National Religious who have been influenced by Chareidi Socialism)”
Will you ever stop? will you blame anything you deem to be a failure on those awful frummies? can you not allow the D”L the dignity of being able to make their own decisions? put a sock in it.August 21, 2013 8:49 pm at 8:49 pm #972311
To state that Computers are (widespread’ even amongst the Chareidim is False.
I lived in Isreal recently for a while and have immediate family living there now.
For the most part the only Chareidim that have Computers are the ones who need them for work.
Considering the fact that alot of Women (particularly Americans i.e citibrook) do need them for work they have computers.
If you think Chareidi families live a life of luxury you rreally are delusional.
How about taking a trip to a Chareidi center and visiting the homes?August 21, 2013 8:50 pm at 8:50 pm #972312
How do u know the Chareidim would not be happy?
Facts are they never tried it!August 21, 2013 8:50 pm at 8:50 pm #972313
Shraga18: Most importantly, in two weeks, you get a chance at a fresh start (as we all do). Bezras Hashem the Ribbono Shel Olam will give you what you need.
To everyone else: Financial experts can really open your eyes and show where your money is going. You may be spending on things that you are not really using, or doing something that you think saves you money but ends up costing more in the long run. Also (as I’ve been told) if you are tight financially use cash and don’t borrow. Try to build up a rainy day reserve (they reccomend 6 months, and you can probably get away excluding tuition). The Ribbono Shel Olam may be giving, but you may be spending wrong.
Hatzlacha to all.August 21, 2013 9:02 pm at 9:02 pm #972314
Chareidim in the USA do not vote for politicans who woud do what Lapid has done.
Lapid has followed the exact same failed ‘Economic Poicies” of every Liberal when they start running out of Money.
He’s raised Taxes and cut Benefits.
Conservatives propose cutting Tazes and cutting benefits.
The Difference is that Cutting Taxes means that working becomes more worth it.
I own a buisness.
It is extremley difficult to find workers unless you are willing to pay them a fortune.
Government benefits means that if do not work they earn more money then if they work.
Now if they are hired and have to start paying taxes the amount they have to pay is ridiculous to the point it makes it not worth it to work at all since it’s harder and harder to make enough to make ends meet.
When close to 50% of what you make is going to taxes it’s hard to justify working.
Which makes it hard for an amployer to find a worker since any buisness who pays every starting employee 150,000 dollars wil go bankrupt.
So if it’s cut and cut drastically al of a sudden things change.
basically it’s why Obama’s economic policies failed.
While Bush came in during a recession, cut taxes and people barely remember the recession existed.
Reagen came in after Carters years of misery implemented huge accross the board tax cuts (was goinfg to cut government spending but Tip O’Neill reneged on the signed agreement) and we had astronpmical growth.
It’s hard for a guy like Obama and his team of acedemics who have never had to start a buisness and turn a profit to really understand.
Oh Well.August 21, 2013 9:04 pm at 9:04 pm #972315
Ben Levi, because the fact is the Chareidi community with a universal kollel system can not survive without the Israeli Government money. And, please(!!), spare me and others the aggravation — do not claim otherwise (that’s why they are going crazy now in Isarel — they took away the money).August 21, 2013 9:33 pm at 9:33 pm #972316
Actually the universal Kollel system is a myth as 40% of Chareidim work.
And look lets see if the kollelim last without the Isreali Government.
I bet on the Kollelim outlasting Lapid seems you bet on Lapid.
We’ll see whso right.
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