April 12, 2019 9:27 am at 9:27 am #1713562
I am stumped!
As I was cooking a bit pot of 60 pounds of chopped meat, my neighbor comes by carrying a pound of treif chopped meat (she bought it for her dog). Being a yenta and a klutz, she checks out my cooking pot of meat and accidentally dropped her treif chopped meat into it.
The meats are all mixed together and cannot be distinguished or separated.
Luckily, my 60 pounds of kosher meat nullifies her one pound of treif meat, so now my poy has 60 pounds of kosher meat.
Here is the dilemma (only for those with a double digit or higher IQ – single digit IQ owners need not apply):
She wants me to give her one of the pounds of meat that are in my pot, which is kosher meat and she can now feed it to her family for supper!
I say, no way, I only need to return to you one pound of treif meat – which is much cheaper than kosher meat. You have no right to a valuable pound of kosher meat. Your meat is the cheap dog food meat, not expensive kosher meat!
She says, one of those pounds in this pot is mine, and if it is now kosher, bonus to me. You can’t replace my meat with another meat – give me meat from this pot.
I say, no, you put in a treif pound into my pot, that is all you deserve, to you get back a treif pound of meat, the koshering part is mine, because of my 60 pounds of meat. You didn’t put in a kosher pound of meat, why should i give you back a kosher pound of meat?!
We are at a stalemate!!
We are willing to fully accept the psak of the Coffee Room (which will be cheaper than going to a Din Torah – I don’t know how much Rabbi Yair Hoffman charges for such cases).
Any psak should be provided with a reason (מאיזה טעם דנתוני , per Sanhedrin 31b).
The winning reply will get as a token of our appreciation, one delicious meatball made from this mixture of 60 lbs kosher meat and 1 lb dog food – it is kosher l’pessach.April 12, 2019 10:58 am at 10:58 am #1713847
You only have pay the neighbor the price of treif meat.April 12, 2019 10:59 am at 10:59 am #1713859LerntminTayrahParticipant
The Yoreh Deah shaila is separate from the choshen mishpat.
Not sure your psak in the yoreh deah part is correct. It takes a while for that one pound to fall into the pot, and while it falls you might have chaticha naasis neveila. Plus one pound of meat is difficult to get mixed in so quickly so it’s be’en, and you are mechuyav to remove what’s be’en.April 12, 2019 10:59 am at 10:59 am #1713889
Mostly a mazik pays מה שהזיק and not מה שנהנה. He pays for the harm done and not the gain benefited. so you pay for treif meat.April 12, 2019 11:12 am at 11:12 am #1713899
She dropped a piece of meat in your pot, let her take it back.
So she can’t figure out which one is hers? Nu nu. Her problem, not yours.April 12, 2019 11:12 am at 11:12 am #1713902apushatayidParticipant
the dog food is kosher lipesach? is chametz batil bishishim?April 12, 2019 11:20 am at 11:20 am #1713906apushatayidParticipant
“Luckily, my 60 pounds of kosher meat nullifies her one pound of treif meat, so now my poy has 60 pounds of kosher meat.”
60+1 = 60?April 12, 2019 11:21 am at 11:21 am #1713907
There is a third tzad: that you owe her nothing .
she dropped the meat into your pot the meat she dropped is gone, batul it doesnt exist anymore .
why would you have to pay her back with other meat? If she dropped it on the floor would you have to pay her back?
In fact if you had 59 pounds in your pot, she might have to pay you for ruining your meat !
true you gain a bit from her clumsiness but so what?April 12, 2019 11:34 am at 11:34 am #1713922
1. “You only have pay the neighbor the price of treif meat” – the neighbour isn’t asking for cash, the neighbour wants a pound of meat returned from this pot, which is now kosher meat.
2. ” a mazik pays מה שהזיק ” – the neighbour was not mazik anything by dropping the treif meat into the kosher meats – everything stayed kosher, but the neighbour’s meat became kosher now, is he entitled to it?
Lerntin – “Not sure your psak in the yoreh deah part is correct. It takes a while for that one pound to fall into the pot… while it falls you might have chaticha naasis neveila. Plus one pound of meat is difficult to get mixed in so quickly so it’s be’en… you are mechuyav to remove what’s be’en.”
– the question was one pound of treif chopped meat which mixes immediately into the pot of cooking 60 pounds of kosher chopped meat (which is a huge mixture). But even if it was 60 pieces of meat of kosher meat (e.g. steaks) and one piece of treif meat (steak) – a classic case of ta’aruvos (chaticha na’aseh neveila has no application here), if all the meat is mixed together and the issur cannot be distinguished (it is not b’ein) it is bottel and all 61 steaks or pounds of chopped meat are kosher.
EditedApril 12, 2019 11:35 am at 11:35 am #1713924
Meno, you say, המוציא מחבירו עליו הראיה.April 12, 2019 11:39 am at 11:39 am #1713927
Meno, you say, המוציא מחבירו עליו הראיה.
Exactly my point. Let her prove that the piece of meat she’s taking is the one she dropped in.
If she actually could prove it somehow, then it was never actually batul.April 12, 2019 11:44 am at 11:44 am #1713931
Chametz before pesach is botel, but not on pesach.April 12, 2019 11:44 am at 11:44 am #1713932iacisrmmaParticipant
I am just wondering how someone can have so much mazel:
all the matzah hidden on pesach?
Waiter puts finger in soup?
treif meat falling into a pot that just happens to have 60 lbs of kosher chopped meat (how big of a pot)?April 12, 2019 11:49 am at 11:49 am #1713936
I said , if you feel that you were mazik, you pay treif meat back; You like to misunderstand things.April 12, 2019 11:56 am at 11:56 am #1713943Toothpick17Participant
You owe her the amount she lost. Why would it make a difference if it’s kosher now. You should owe her Treif meat.April 12, 2019 12:23 pm at 12:23 pm #1713952Amil ZolaParticipant
1) Why would you be cooking 60lbs of ground meat?
2) Why would your neighbor put her meat into your pot.April 12, 2019 12:23 pm at 12:23 pm #1713953
Ypu cannot give the neigjhbor trreif meat as ypu cannot sell non-kosher meat.April 12, 2019 12:23 pm at 12:23 pm #1713954Avram in MDParticipant
“Luckily, my 60 pounds of kosher meat nullifies her one pound of treif meat, so now my poy has 60 pounds of kosher meat.”
“She says, one of those pounds in this pot is mine, and if it is now kosher, bonus to me. You can’t replace my meat with another meat – give me meat from this pot.
I say, no, you put in a treif pound into my pot, that is all you deserve, to you get back a treif pound of meat, the koshering part is mine, because of my 60 pounds of meat. You didn’t put in a kosher pound of meat, why should i give you back a kosher pound of meat?!”
You should give her 1lb of meat from your pot, and you will still have 60lbs of meat in your pot. A miracle?April 12, 2019 1:56 pm at 1:56 pm #1713988
Meno – “She dropped a piece of meat in your pot, let her take it back.” She wants to take it back (any pound of meat in my pot) but I want to keep all the 61 lbs of kosher meat and give her back trief meat for her dog.
apushatayid – “the dog food is kosher lipesach? is chametz batil bishishim? – It was treif chopped meat purchased for her dog (not chometz, but I loath to say the term “kosher” l’pessach on it).
Toothpick17 – “You owe her the amount she lost. Why would it make a difference if it’s kosher now. You should owe her Treif meat” – she says, and I agree with her, that one of the pounds of meat in my pot IS hers, factually 1/61 of the pot contents is hers, which means I need to give her kosher meat.
Amil Zola –
“1) Why would you be cooking 60lbs of ground meat?” – cooking for seder in Nepal’ high in the Himalayas in the capital city of Kathmandu, over 2,000 guests
2) Why would your neighbor put her meat into your pot – the yenta looked into my pot while holding a pound of treif meat she bought for her dog, and being a klutz, she dropped it in the pot.
laskern – “You cannot give the neigjhbor trreif meat as you cannot sell non-kosher meat” – one can give non-kosher meat to someone else, the halacha you probably refer to is that one should not have a business dealing in neveilos and treifos.
Avram in MD – “You should give her 1lb of meat from your pot, and you will still have 60lbs of meat in your pot.” That is what she wants, but why should I give her a lb of KOSHER meat from my pot? She put in treif meat – she should get back treif meat!
iacisrmma – “I am just wondering how someone can have so much mazel: matzah hidden on pesach? Waiter puts finger in soup? Treif meat falling into a pot that just happens to have 60 lbs of kosher chopped meat” –
…and people at kiddush chapping all the kugel and a serial shusher and being mekayem Ad Dlo Yada and learning Daf Yofi and being mesayem and writing a sefer…and sell my house and spend pessach in the sukkah…
I lead an “interesting” life (thank G-d the shadchonim don’t know who I am or my kids would never get a suggestion).April 12, 2019 2:07 pm at 2:07 pm #1713998
She wants to take it back (any pound of meat in my pot) but I want to keep all the 61 lbs of kosher meat and give her back trief meat for her dog.
Let’s pretend she dropped a pound of kosher meat in the pot. Who says she could just take back any pound of meat in the pot? If I drop a basketball in your backyard, can I go into your backyard and just grab any basketball I find?
The burden is on her to prove that she’s taking back what’s hers. Until she can prove it, she gets nothing.April 12, 2019 2:40 pm at 2:40 pm #1714011
Thats what I was trying to sayApril 12, 2019 3:03 pm at 3:03 pm #1714014ZionGateParticipant
Re: Seder in Nepal
Big deal. We’re booked on the floating islands, Lake Titicaca, Peru. Management promised all chometz tasting very kosher for P lemehadrin babkas, 4 Daf shifts a day, and a 300 man
chorale at both seder finales to sing L’shana Habah B’Yerushalim guaranteed to make young and old weep with longing and dveikus or our money back. They may surprise us with an encore- Al Naaros Bavel Sham Yashavnu… bocheenu..etc. to make grandmas swoon and grandpas shudder. If it’s as promised, maybe we’ll do it again next year…. and the year after.April 12, 2019 3:03 pm at 3:03 pm #1714015
Really? This is not a case if “hashivaa aveida” that the owner needs to identify his property. Think about it – if I have a mountain of quarters and you drop your quarter into them, do you lose it – because you can’t identify which exact quarter is yours?! We are all in agreement that obe of these quarters is yours, they are all identical, I am required to give you one.
The same here with the pounds if meat. No shaylah that the neighbor must get back a pound of neat. The issue is if it should be kosher meat or treif meat.April 12, 2019 3:12 pm at 3:12 pm #1714021
Indeed if you drop one basketball into my yard and there are a thousand identical basketballs (of equal value ), and we don’t know which is your ball, I cannot keep ypur basketball and MUST give you one back (only in The Laws of Sodom can I say on each ball – prove to me thsy this one is yours).April 12, 2019 3:12 pm at 3:12 pm #1714025
Think about it – if I have a mountain of quarters and you drop your quarter into them, do you lose it – because you can’t identify which exact quarter is yours?!
Well cash might be different, but if they were objects then I would say yes. Or at least maybe.
M’heicha teisi that she could she be m’chayev you to give her something without you aggreing to it? Bring me a raya. You’re good at that.April 12, 2019 3:48 pm at 3:48 pm #1714031
” Think about it – if I have a mountain of quarters and you drop your quarter into them, do you lose it ”
Are quarters batul?
Can one person eat all 60 pounds (or ml to make it more plausible) in one bite? Arent they eating a pound (or ml) of treif? by davar yavesh we hold lehalacha one person cant eat all three items is that the din here.
If not, why not?April 12, 2019 4:55 pm at 4:55 pm #1714041
ubiquitin -(a) this isn’t really a case of davar yovesh; – where lchatchila one person shouldn’t eat all the ta
aruvos (even if botel); (b) we are not dealing with one person eating all the 61 lbs of meat (at one sitting) – we are talking about returning the “invested” pound of meat, which we (me and neighbour) all admit needs to be returned (but some CR posters like Meno and ubiquiten think I don’t need to return – which is incorrect but I love them!).;April 12, 2019 4:59 pm at 4:59 pm #1714048
…some CR posters like Meno and ubiquiten think I don’t need to return – which is incorrect…
I’m waiting for a raya otherwise.April 12, 2019 6:12 pm at 6:12 pm #1714059
There is a raya from pikodon: when one deposits for safekeeping a gallon of oil or an amount of wheat for safekeeping and it becomes mixed up with the watchman’s oil or wheat, the watchman is required to just give back ANY oil or wheat of that amount.April 12, 2019 6:12 pm at 6:12 pm #1714060
…it need not be the original oil or wheat (if there is no distinction).April 12, 2019 6:17 pm at 6:17 pm #1714069
By a pikadon the shomer accepted achrayus so he can’t tayna hamotzi mechaveiro alav haraya. Here you didn’t accept any achrayus.April 13, 2019 9:10 pm at 9:10 pm #1714078HeargodParticipant
This feels like an April fool’s joke questions and this incident never happenedApril 13, 2019 9:13 pm at 9:13 pm #1714086
“a) this isn’t really a case of davar yovesh;”
Correct, It isnt at all, as I said.
“; (b) we are not dealing with one person eating all the 61 lbs of meat (at one sitting) ”
you arent, i’m asking you CAN a person eat all 61 lbs (you correctly pointed out that by davar yavesh he cannot) in your case if you so choose can you eat it all at once?
” (but some CR posters like Meno and ubiquiten think I don’t need to return – which is incorrect but I love them!).”
I said it as a tzad, though I am leanig that way.
You obviously don’t have to return kosher meat, that makes no sense whatsoever I don’t even hear the sevara that you would have to. You might have to return treif meat, but if it was lost by your friend, and it doesn’t exist anymore I’m not sure why you have to pay him back for her clumsinessApril 13, 2019 9:13 pm at 9:13 pm #1714104
Meno – you are partially right. Kofatz echod min hamenu’yim (sugya of takfa choen) – if ine of the counted sheep that was maaser jumped back into the herd and the cohen grabs one of the sheep, can he keep it (since one sheep in the herd is his) or not Z(since THIS shepp might not be his). There, these is a sevora of hamotzi mechavero, prove that THIS sheep was designated as maaser. To apply this to the basketball that fell into the backyard with all the other basketballs or the meatthat fell in with all the other meats – is quite a stretch. Because the sheep is “asiri yihyeh kodesh”, the kedusha is on it, it isn’t simply a monetary obligation to pay the cohen, but an obligation that the specific object be given, and that specificity was lost. So you have a good point but sadly it won’t win the cigar.April 14, 2019 1:00 am at 1:00 am #1714225
Heargod – “This feels like an April fool’s joke questions and this incident never happened”, why do you think this incident never happened? Life is stranger than fiction. But suppose it DID happen, what would you rule (after applying all your Torah knowledge and business acumen)? Solve the dilemma (- prize awarded: one delicious kosher l’pessach meatball from this mixture of kosher meat with just a bit a dog food).April 14, 2019 1:00 am at 1:00 am #1714206
Meno, the same “shayla ” if you buy a box of Rice Crispies cereal and place it in your friend’s bag< Your friend;s bag has 2 boxes of Rice Crispies cereal that your friend bought. All three boxes are identical. Can the friend who has the bag of cereal say, I am keeping all three boxes of Rice Crispies because you cannot prove which is yours?! Your box of cereal was bottel “chad b’tray” 1:2, in my cereal?!April 14, 2019 2:49 am at 2:49 am #17142412qwertyParticipant
You said by pikodon a person is given back the same type of item that he left even if it isn’t identical but close enough.
This pot doesn’t have anything recognizable that resembles the dog food meat so you would need to buy new pound of treif meat for the dog.April 14, 2019 5:47 pm at 5:47 pm #1714468
2qwerty – I don’t think you fully chap. I want to return a lb of treif meat and keep the more valuable kosher lb of meat. My neighbor wants the kosher meat (an increase in value). Am I right to just buy her a lb of treif dog meat (which is what she had) or is she right to demand the lb of kosher meat from this pot (because one of these lbs is hers)?April 14, 2019 9:59 pm at 9:59 pm #1714589
“the same “shayla ” if you buy a box of Rice Crispies cereal ”
no it isnt the same shylah as Ive pointed out to you.
for the third time: CAN a person eat all 61 lbs (you correctly pointed out that by davar yavesh he cannot) in your case if you so choose can you eat it all at once?April 14, 2019 9:59 pm at 9:59 pm #1714601DovidBTParticipant
So what happened to the dog?April 15, 2019 12:08 am at 12:08 am #1714621
The dog ate one meatball and holach l’olomo.April 15, 2019 7:34 am at 7:34 am #1714661TealParticipant
I’m no dayan! And this answer is by no means as far as i know a halachic response, just a response from the feelings of my heart.
I would give the neighbor the whole pot with all the meat and tell her to never step foot in my kitchen with her food again. I would be sick eating even 1oz of treif dog food. 🤮🤮🤮April 15, 2019 7:35 am at 7:35 am #1714683David YParticipant
Assuming you decided to give her meat for the sake of peace with your neighbour, if she was not Jewish, then non-kosher meat would be acceptable. If she was Jewish then she would have to confirm that it was only for her dog, otherwise theirewould be a moral obligation to give her kosher meat so as not to put a stumbling-block before the blind. In other words it would be a kiruv opportunity to draw a Jew who doesn’t keeper kosher to perhaps consider becoming kosher.April 15, 2019 5:08 pm at 5:08 pm #1715059
She is frum and Jewish.
She bought treif meat for her dog (at $0.59 a lb).
She now wants a lb of the kosher meat from my pot which she can feed her family (and worth $4.99/lb).
True one of the lbs of meat in my pot are hers – as she claims.
But she deposited treif meat – so I say she gets only treif meat.
She says no, her treif meat is now kosher meat.
There is no other issue here except:
Does she get a lb of treif meat at $0.59/lb or kosher meat worth $4.99/lb (- chassidishe shchita, no less)?
That is the dilemma.
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