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Our Shabbos dinner guests left pretty late this past week, around 12:45 AM I would assume, so I was up late. As we walked them out I noticed some neighbors teenage kids walking around in circles acting like they are doing nothing. ok- not so unusual. Around 1:00 I came into my bedroom and looked out the window and saw a glowing boy sitting in the grass holding something. So I figured either its a ghost or more probably a kid holding a computer(it was a lot of light so I initally thought computer but figured cell because I heard of this whole “half” shabbos texting bit. I decided to go outside for a walk and try to see who exactly it was but it was too dark to tell without trying to stare. They just kept on surfing the net as I passed by. As I went a little futher down, they left. It kind of looked like it was not one of my neighbors kids, but one of their friends, but their kid was there with him(and I think he may have had a phone or was holding something). I wished them a good shabbos. Should I have said something to them? Should I tell the parents? It is possible now that I was stupid enough to walk out there, they will know who snitched.
Sender Av, if the kids were doing it bfarhesia in public, the odds are that the parents are well aware of the situation already.
That is really sad. These kids breached a very thick wall. Telling the parents might have the wrong effect, but how can you ignore it. Try talking to the Rav.
I agree with HaLeivi if its possible. Either the parents know, or they don’t know and were likely the cause. A kid who doesn’t run away when someone he knows sees him breaking Shabbos is already in a very bad place. If they have a Rov I would go to him first.
How old were the kids? That could also make a difference as to whom you approach. Also, maybe your neighbors kid was not being mechallel only his friend.(sad either way)Unless you have definitive proof think a million times over about if he was mechallel shabbos speak to your Rov or another qualified rov that handles family crisis as if this is befarhesia then it is a huge issue (which the parents might or might not know about)
While in high school, two boys were kicked out (in different grades) after people called the yeshiva that they saw them acting inappropriate of a yeshiva boy, instead of speaking to the family or family rav instead. The boys were persona non gratta in the yeshiva.The Rebbes did not even try to help them overcome their temptations and went straight for the hammer and threw them out. One boy was lost for a bit but straightened out. The other took it as a wakeup call but was very emotionally damaged and embarrassed as to why he was asked to leave.
Probably if they are that disaffected with Judaism that they are mechalel shabbos, the parents are the problem and telling the will make it worse.
Kids perceive Hashem the way they think of their father.
If their father is fair, and understanding of their struggles, and understanding of their feelings- then that is how they perceive Hashem.
If their father is critical, insists they do what he wants regardless of what they want or how hard it is, equates minor infractions with major ones (because the “sin” is not listening to him), does not give leeway when things are hard, cares more about their behavior than their feelings- then that is how they perceive Hashem.
Now I ask you: if Hashem really was like the second type; would you want to keep shabbos?
Sender – what is this “half shabbos texting” you speak of? never heard of it.
I don’t think it is being fair to blame the father of any child who is being mechallel Shabbos.
Ladies & Gentlemen:
Unfortunately this problem is RAMPANT.
Yes, I said RAMPANT.
Let me say it again: The problem of kids being mechalel Shabbos is RAMPANT.
Stick your head in the sand if you want, but it’s the truth.
Sender Av, if you tell their parents isn’t that akin to “messirah”? Why does everyone only recognize “messirah” when it involves the other issue? This is also messirah. In all honestly it is NOT your place to reveal to the parents what you saw. Not even to the Rav. However, since you are a young man and not “old” like their parents, maybe you could be a mashpiah on such kids who sometimes need a “big brother” or someone to look up to. That is if you really care and want to get involved. Just start by saying hi to the kid when you see him and ask how he is doing. Don’t immediately zoom in and speak to him about being mechalel Shabbos. You can offer to play basketball with him, or ask him if he can help you figure something out on your phone or computer. After all he does live on the block and you do know him, right? If you strike up small inconsequential conversations you can build up to being friends and have a positive influence on him.
You don’t know what his issues are. But maybe because you are older than he is but yet still NOT in his parents category he might ope up to you and allow you in.
Mesirah means reporting to a goy. Not a rebbi or parent, which is not only permissible but often required, and has nothing to do with mesirah.
Oh Come On, Aries.
do not speak to the parents. they were on the net in front of the house, not in their yard. parents probably know .very painful situation. and also, please do not blame parents about situation, ok popa?
Refusing to admit that the parents are usually at fault may make us feel good, but will not help the kids.
aries2756:
“Sender Av, if you tell their parents isn’t that akin to “messirah”? Why does everyone only recognize “messirah” when it involves the other issue? This is also messirah.”
Are you serious? Telling a parent about their kid’s issues is not most definitely not mesirah.
PBA:
I do not think that the parents are at fault in the majority of OTD cases. Every person has bechira, and is free to pick whatever path they want. Just like you would not “blame” (or credit) a baal teshuva’s parent with his/her return, we should not blame an OTD kids’ parents for his/her situation.
Oh and might I point out that two out of three of our Avos had kids who went OTD, and I doubt that any of us can be half as good of a parent (or just about anything else, for that matter) as they were.
IMHO, telling the parents will do nothing other than cause unneeded stress all around. Like other posters mentioned, they probably know already. For the best long term solution, I second what aries said.
oy – papa – ur at it again!!! u just love controversy, don’t you?
nebuch. what is this world coming to?!?!?!
oy – papa – ur at it again!!! u just love controversy, don’t you?
No. I don’t just love controversy. I believe what I am saying, and so do many people.
It is important to understand that other people can actually have real opinions that are different than our own. And may actually be correct.
I am completely open to convincing, or at least admitting the weaknesses of my positions and explaining why I hold them anyway. Look through my posts. You will find me admitting I don’t know the answer to something several times.
But this time I am right. Real right. Read what I said again. Doesn’t it make sense? Isn’t the purpose of parents so that we can understand how Hashem treats us? So doesn’t it follow that if our parents act in a way that we wouldn’t want Hashem to act, that we will have a negative view of Hashem?
Popa, you are justifying impulsive behavior.
If a child has a father who is critical and overbearing he has two options. The easy, shallow way is to ‘let it all out’ on G-d and throw everything back in His ‘face’.
But, a child who looks for truth, understands that his father’s imperfections reflect nothing on the Father of all people.
The only way I can make this statement with such conviction is because I have a father that would cause many shallow people to go off the derech if they were his children. Still, i have the fiercest love for Hashem – possibly because of my circumstances- because i recognize that while the love i receive from my human father is conditional, all I have from Hashem is UNCONDITIONAL LOVE!!! How could i possibly sin intentionally if i feel like that??
still looking:
I am sure there are individuals who are stronger and weaker. Nevertheless, would you at least agree that it is harder for you? And aren’t we only judged by Hashem according to how hard it is for us? And sometimes things are so hard that they are not meant for us to do it?
(Yes, I am aware that Hashem only sends a nisayon we can pass. The only question is, who says everything is our nisayon, some things are not.)
Recently I heard Rabbi Jeff Fox give a shiur on this very issue. After a brief discussion of the halachot of electricity on Shabat, he went into his main point which was that kids who do this don’t get what Shabat is about and that we are failing to communicate the greatness of Shabat. He didn’t have any particular ideas except to say that if all Shabat is about is all the things you can’t do, of course kids will want to get out of it somehow.
At the end of the shiur, none of us (myself included) wanted to talk about his main point — we all wanted to discuss the halachot of electricity! He (justifiably) berated us for missing the point.
For me, one of the great things about Shabat is that I DON’T use my Blackberry or my computer! How do we communicate that to our kids?
Wow, Still Looking. That’s amazing. I too, have father who’s pretty overbearing and at times, it’s tough. I did struggle with my Yiddishkeit for a while, but B”H, I didn’t show it outwardly and I’m now stable and love AND fear Hashem.
Thanks for the chizzuk! It’s nice knowing there are other people out there who know what it’s like…:)
I dont know about undeeded stress, but I sure know these kids will get potched. I think they still potch them because the mother once complained to me how her hand hurt from doing so.
I just noticed this.
So again, the mother hits her teenage kids hard enough that her hand hurts (and that’s what she complains about- eeek). And there is any doubt in anyone’s mind about why these kids don’t want to keep shabbos?
They think Hashem is like that. Why would anyone want to worship a G-d who is like that? Sounds more like the Greek pagan gods to me. They are impetuous and uncaring, and you just need to slaugter enough goats that they are appeased and leave you alone and let it rain.
Massering is massering, and if you masser to the parents or a Rav you have no control of the results of your interfering. So YES I am going to go there.
But now Sender says the kids will get “potched” so we know that at the very least, that is what will happen. So again, I will say that if you Masser, at the very least Sender you will know that the kids will get “potched” so how are you helping the situation and what is the point then of you telling on them?
If the point is “how do I help these kids”? Then I made a suggestion about how to help the kids. If the point is “how do I get these kids in more trouble than they are already in”? Then I am NOT getting involved in that.
Popa:
It may be harder for me to get through each day without having a nervous breakdown or other emotional issues.
But even in the darkest moments it never entered my head to think that Hashem is ‘like’ my father. If I would’ve been told that i don’t think i couldve survived!
To think that these children truthfully perceive their parents midos as a basis for the way Hashem treats us… that makes me very distressed. If this is the case, the loneliness the kids are facing is complete! Think about it from their view-they have NOONE on their side, noone that cares for them and loves them unconditionally and noone to ever turn to when theyre in a tight spot.
That is a most devastating thought…
it was definately correct to just say good shabbos rather than ignore them or say more than that.also im not saying that the neighbors child wasnt doing anything but it is definatly possible that its a good friend of his whos doing the wrong thing but he just doesnt know himself what to say to stop the friend,other than trying to stick by them as a friend and try to be a good influence. so i think you did the right thing but from here on out its a very hard decision because you cant straight out make any decision since theres always the benefit of the dought (don licaf zechus) because either ur neighbors child could be occupying himself in completly wrong things or he could just be currently trying to be the best friend possible. only hashem really knows.
* areias2756 if it is possible i definatly agree with your suggestion
* also from people i knows experience DO NOT go to the school first, its hard to decide who but dont go to their school, trust me it causes the most problems and doesnt solve anything teenager 🙂
Snitching won’t help. Unless you can bring the kids back, just ignore it. They’re either gone anyway or they’ll outgrow their teenage rebellion.
I recently stumbled upon a double FB account belonging to a good bochur here whom I know very well – and another FB account belonging to a girl who is not frum but is in the frum school here because her parents are returnees from EY and want her in a Jewish environment (knowing probably that she’d end up in real trouble otherwise).
The girl’s photos on this account are not acceptable and clearly show she has no shaychus to Yiddishkeit. I was shocked but not surprised at the girl’s profile but totally surprised that the bochur had a second account for an online relationship with her.
I just blocked the accounts because they’re just kids fooling around and all I would accomplish if I reported it to the boy’s rosh yeshiva is that the boy would go OTD. Reporting the girl is not my job and this is a kiruv community so they’d never do anything so long as she isn’t breaking the rules in school itself.
Kapusta, I dont know about undeeded stress, but I sure know these kids will get potched. I think they still potch them because the mother once complained to me how her hand hurt from doing so.
Unneeded stress; assuming the parents already know about it, why add the stress of knowing their dirty laundry was aired in public. On second thought, it doesn’t sound like the kids were trying very hard to keep quiet about it so the parents probably wouldn’t care… I still think that the best way to help them is to talk to them directly.
Am I correct in thinking you don’t live in NY? Most people don’t walk outside (or sit outside) at 1 AM around here.
popa: I guess you’re talking from experience…?
In regards to the “parents at fault” issue. Sometimes that is true. But often you can have a family with five kids, and four of them are terrific, ehrliche frum kids, but sadly one goes off the derech. So who brought up that fifth kid? You can’t blame parents all the time. The reverse is also true, parents can be the worst, yet one or more of their kids turn out to be exceptional, in spite of their terrible upbringing. Do those parents deserve the credit??? People are responsible for their own actions. we make choices, and some of them are not good ones.
I think the parents’ rov should be approached and asked for advice how to handle this. It might be better coming from him, as opposed to you.
popa – I do agree that many times it is the parent’s fault. I happen to know a number of families where the children are otd, and i can really see where it comes from — the families. they are either dysfunctional or have numerous other issues. But on the other side of the coin, i know families who are wonderful and don’t have those problems yet a child will go off – sometimes it’s peer pressure or some other problem with that individual child. in those cases, the parents are at a total loss and are really hurting! so to make a general statement and say it’s ALWAYS the parents’ fault, i think, is not really fair. that’s all i’m saying.
PBA:
“But this time I am right. Real right. Read what I said again. Doesn’t it make sense? Isn’t the purpose of parents so that we can understand how Hashem treats us? So doesn’t it follow that if our parents act in a way that we wouldn’t want Hashem to act, that we will have a negative view of Hashem?”
Yes, having bad parents can certainly be one cause for kids going OTD. However, it is far from the only cause. Therefore, I don’t think we can or should automatically assume that the parents are always at fault if the kid is having problems with Yiddishkeit.
As I pointed out above, just like you would not “blame” (or credit) a baal teshuva’s parent with his/her return, we should not blame an OTD kids’ parents for his/her situation. And might I point out that two out of three of our Avos had kids who went OTD, and I doubt that any of us can be half as good of a parent (or just about anything else, for that matter) as they were.
aries:
“Massering is massering, and if you masser to the parents or a Rav you have no control of the results of your interfering. So YES I am going to go there.”
I’m sorry, but you’re being ridiculous. Telling a parent or teacher what their kid/student is doing is simply not a question of mesira. Ask any Rav or Possek.
aries2756-
I was thinking along the same lines.
Similar to the mitzvah of bikkur cholim, which helps those in pain by keeping their minds busy and not thinking about the pain- these kids may not be doing what they were doing if they were occupied.
I’m not sure what the situation is with anyone involved, but Sender Av did mention being up at 1:00 A.M. and having guests over. Maybe, if you’re up to it, invite them over for some cholent, beer and singing. Maybe they just need someone to “hear them out”. Think about all the sechar you can be getting for each minute they hold back from chillul shabbos.
A kid I once tutored told me about his journey from FFB to FFBBTAB (Frum From Birth, But Took A Break). He rebelled against his parents until they kicked him out of the house. A young couple took him in on one condition, he has to have a 45 minute seder with the husband every single day, no other strings attached. He told them that he needs a key to the house since he drinks and parties with his friends until early in the morning. He was shocked that they trusted him with a key, but “if they trusted me, I knew I could trust them”.
For the first few weeks the 45 minute “seder” was the kid complaining about everything that was bothering him, with the husband listening intently. When he ran out of complaints the guy started learning with him and he realized what he was missing out on. A few months later his own family took him back with outstretched arms.
If the parents don’t know already, they certainly suspect. There is nothing to gain by telling the parents; only causing them additional tzar. The parents need to wait it out and daven. The neighbors need to mind their own business and be accepting and show extra kindness to this child.
Hi,
As a Youth at Risk counsellor I think I may be in a position to answer you on this one.
1st – NO, DO NOT TELL THEIR PARENTS often situations like this are caused because of family issues or at least aggravated by them.
Next – If you are aware that the kids are close with a mentor of a youth advisor/counsellor, DO discuss it with them
– If this is not the case or you are not aware of this and the family have a Rov or are close to a Rov or Manhig who can understand these issues and/or is a warm understanding person please discuss it with them, they will know how and with who to approach this.
– Your job is: always show these kids wo are undoubtedly going through an unsettled time, extra warmth, always I nice good shabbos and hello, if your home is suitable then after a few weeks of getting to each other, invite them round, thu night cholent, friday night kugel etc etc…, if not do what you can by showing them they are still valued in the eyes of an adult. DO NOT BE THE ONE TO GIVE THEM MUSSAR, however if down the line they ask you advice TOVOI ALOV BROCHO
people dont realise that here really applies – KOL HAMEKAYAM NEFESH ACHAS MYISROEL K’ILU KIYAM OILAM MOLEI – maybe the Reboinoi Shel Oilom wanted you to be the one so it can be your job in helping them.
I once heard from Rabbi Shloime Bochner (of Bonei Oilom)that Kedushas Levi says that every person has in this world someone or something to help with and this is the main part of our life to be Mesakan our Neshomo. Who knows… maybe this might be yours…
Whatever step you take now make sure its the right one The Rewards are yours for generations to come!
Wishing you loads of Hatzlocha Rabboh, I can be contacted via the moderator for my email.
I have been involved with the At-Risk community for many years. I have mentored and coached quite a number of kids. And some just simply became members of our family and still are. We have had 11 boys stay at our home over the years. One who we consider a son moved in and out and when he moved back in was already 21. My hubby told him, as he always had in the past that the front door gets locked at 12:00. We have a combination lock that they knew, but we also had a double bolt. He looked at my hubby with all his grown up bravado and said but “I’m 21” and my hubby said, “and these are MY rules. At 12:00 you are either on this side of the door or the other. You choose”.
So yes I have experience as well, and kids respect you for helping them when you really take a true interest in them and love them just for being a Jewish child.
mw13, as in the past. I am NOT going to argue with you for the sake of arguing. YOU ask your RAV what the meaning of massering is and if it ONLY applies to goyim. My parents raised me NOT to masser on my siblings, friends or anyone. That is the proper thing to do. In High School my principal punished the “snitch” for massering. I thank Hashem everyday for having had such wonderful parents and for raising me the way they did. I wish everyone could have known them and learned from these heroes (survivors of the holocaust). Anyone who knew them certainly benefited from them.
think about the results if you tell the parents. nothing good can come out of it. they know what their kids are all about- even if they dont know the specifics and dont know that hes texting on shabbos. they know hes out at 1 am and thats bad enough. dont aggravate the situation and get involved.
Yatzmich- you are 100% right. are you new here?
aries:
“mw13, as in the past. I am NOT going to argue with you for the sake of arguing.”
And I will not argue with you just for the sake of arguing. I will, however, argue with you for purposes of reaching the truth. Actually, I must admit I’m slightly offended that you seem to think I’m just goading you on – but that is certainly not the case.
“YOU ask your RAV what the meaning of massering is and if it ONLY applies to goyim.”
Actually, I never said that mesira is only by a goy, since I’m not sure if that’s true. I think you’re confusing me with Chein.
“My parents raised me NOT to masser on my siblings, friends or anyone. That is the proper thing to do.”
With all due respect, how your parents raised you and what you feel the proper thing to do is does not change the halacha.
In High School my principal punished the “snitch” for massering.”
“Snitching” for the sake of snitching might be massering (depending on whether or not messira is applicable by a Jew), but I’m pretty sure that telling a parent/teacher about a problem their child is facing with the intention of helping the situation is muttar.
Mw13, “I’m sorry, but you’re being ridiculous. Telling a parent or teacher what their kid/student is doing is simply not a question of mesira. Ask any Rav or Possek.”
OK, so WE disagree. It is massering and unless you know how to help the child or you know what the situation is, then in all honestly you are not looking to help anyone just to pass on information. In what way does it help to ring the bell and let the parents know what you saw. How can you know that would help or what the outcome of your report will be. And same goes for going to a Rav with the information”. If you were someone close to the family and saw something, you would KNOW whether or not to tell the parents and how to do it. Such as “Is something going on with your son? I saw something that concerned me and thought I would just ask if everything was OK and if there was anything I could do to help.” If they ask what it was you would then say “I’d rather not say. Maybe I can talk directly to your son about it.”
If one was truly concerned and went to see the Shul Rav you can say “I saw something that concerned me. One of the kids in my neighborhood was mechalel shabbos with a computer on his front lawn in the middle of the night. How can I help him and what should I do with this information?”
FYI, it is NEVER your business to go to kid’s school and masser on them, ever. Even if you are “so absolutely sure” you saw what you saw. Stay out of it, it is NOT your business. You will be the one to start the ball rolling or cause the last straw that gets that kid kicked out and on the road to OTD. Everyone that passes through the life of a child has an obligation to that child. And if you know what the outcome is going to be of your meddling then don’t do it. Going to the school will get the kid thrown out and everyone knows it. That is a given, so stay far away. Going to the parents might not be appreciated either. So sometimes or rather most times it is best to just forget what you saw. Consider it your nisayon. Hashem is testing you to see if you will be a mosser and spread loshon horah or if you will mind your own business.
In your interpretation it might not be messirah at its highest level where it involves the authorities and goyim, but none-the-less, if you masser on someone no good will come of it.
Adorable,
I’m not new here, I follow it all & I don’t comment unless I have something really brilliant to say. (clearing throat)
1-Veahavta lirayacha….. . what would you want to be done for you if the situation is reversed?
2- If their reaction will be damaging it needs to be addressed……… even if the answer to 1 is yes.
Popa, you make a good point that a child perceives Hashem through his father and a harsh father who’s obsessed with his own ego can definitely turn off a child from yiddishkeit. However, many times children go off for completely different reasons, like from growing up in a family in which the spirituality was shallow, and parents were too lenient and not demanding anything from their children. Also, some times a child who has learning disability or was lacking in gashmiyus in his home, may also be turned off from yiddishkeit out of lack of self confidence.
Yatz- do I know you?
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