December 8, 2011 1:59 am at 1:59 am #601045
I was at a wedding tonight, and a woman commented to my friend that she is shocked at something i was wearing, and how much pain i must be causing a relative of mine, by dressing like that..
You cant imagine how hurt and upset i was, if only that woman would know how much i am really trying to do better in this particular area, and yes, i was very aware of this particular breach of tznius, and i had actually done something about it but it hadnt worked, and i was really working on it.
I didnt have the opportunity, but i wish i could have said something to her. Everyone has their own difficult areas, and to say something like that is pure disgusting! MIND YOUR OWN BUSINESS!!!! How dare you judge me????? How would you like it if i went around judging you on things YOU do wrong, and commenting on it??
I know there is a mitzva of reproving your friend, but if that woman thought thats the way to go about it-gosh she must be out her mind!
And what in the world gives her the right to decide that i am causing my relative pain?? So thats it, i do this wrong thing so, never mind about all my good qualities, and the things i do that are special- no way, you do this wrong so thats it you are bad and causing grief to ur family, what a rachmonus, HELLO!!! WHO DO YOU THINK YOU ARE?? HASHEM?? YOU THINK YOU KNOW EXACTLY WATS GOING ON???
How can anyone judge me? Do they know whats going on in my heart, how bad i feel and want to change? Do they know how actually, i make my family proud, in ways they would never be able to? Do they know my personal life situation?
Sorry for going on about this im just so upset, and i want to say – please, please, nobody EVER judge anyone, you dont know whats really going on, and DEFINITLY do not give your unasked for opinions, its so so hurtful and doesnt help anyway, it just makes the person resent you, and start looking for your own faults.
Also, i wanna say, dont think i cant accept rebuke or something. Not at all,- my GOOD friends tell me stuff like that all the time, same to my close aunts etc, and i absorb it and thank them for it – but RANDOM PEOPLE who think they can find fault with others, and discuss it DONT YOU DARE!!! Show me first that you care about me, then i wont have a problem listening to you!!!!And not hearing about it through my friends!!
Anyway, besides for that it was an amazing wedding and i loved it, had a great time!:)December 8, 2011 2:17 am at 2:17 am #916060
Random strangers have a Mitzvah of Tochacha too. However, it appears that this was done in a very, very wrong way. There is a still a right way to do it, no matter how well you know the person. This person obviously did not do it properly at all. I am sorry for the pain you felt.December 8, 2011 2:47 am at 2:47 am #916061
I’m so sorry you went through that. It’s so very hurtful to be judged.
I think it’s good that you can be kind to yourself and notice how you’re trying. We’re all on a path to try to be better. I don’t blame you for your anger.
What she said was uncalled for, and certainly at a simcha (but let’s not be judgmental 🙂 .
It sounds like she’s lacking tact and GOOD judgement about if, when and how to say something… A good person to stay away from.
Stick with your friends who care about you and will support you in your growth and don’t “let the turkeys get you down!”December 8, 2011 3:16 am at 3:16 am #916062sam4321Participant
Sam2: I believe there are gedolim who say one cannot give tochacha nowadays because no one is able to do it properly,of course constructive criticism done in an emesdik way is different(technically that is what tochahcah should be).
Skiaddict: Some people don’t think.December 8, 2011 3:23 am at 3:23 am #916063SaysMeMember
Winnie the Pooh: People who don’t think probably don’t have brains; rather, they have grey fluff that’s blown into their heads by mistake.December 8, 2011 3:29 am at 3:29 am #916064YatzmichMember
What I don’t understand is, why did your friend say it over to you? Why would she do that to you, isn’t she your friend?December 8, 2011 4:05 am at 4:05 am #916065RABBAIMParticipant
Why is it so difficult to dress Tniyusdik??
Do we think Hashem wants us to play games with His/Our Shulchan Aruch?
Then we daven for health, shidduchim , good children…….. and get upset if things don’t go the way WE want……December 8, 2011 4:11 am at 4:11 am #916066aries2756Participant
Ski, I am so sorry that this happened to you and that you are hurt. People don’t think before they speak and most forget that Hashem gave us both teeth and lips to guard our tongues. Just as you are struggling with your issue, many people are struggling with this issue.
Please do not allow other people to hurt you. Their opinions should mean nothing to you. As you said, they don’t know you, they don’t know your struggles or your relationship with your family, so their opinions don’t count. Just as they could care less what you think of them, please don’t care what they think of you. They are NOT people who count in your life. Brush it off and move on.
Having said that, I still want to say that EVERYTHING you said here is appropriate and should be heard loud and clear.December 8, 2011 4:17 am at 4:17 am #916067
Skiaddict, I am sorry, but I’ll be frank. “Mind your own business” is not a Jewish attitude. Not judging is a Christian thing. Trying is just not good enough – you have to be dressed properly.
Imagine, someone is a murder or a rapist. He tries to control it, but he is not perfect. So, sometimes, he kills or attacks women. You would not judge him either?December 8, 2011 4:19 am at 4:19 am #916068
Aries, you are wrong. Look in “Chofets Chaim”.December 8, 2011 4:29 am at 4:29 am #916069MiddlePathParticipant
ski, I’m sorry for the pain you went through. You are absolutely right. The person that said these things did a terrible thing.
And aries is right, it is really important to try to not let other people’s judging hurt you. It’s unfortunate that there are so many people like that. I’ve had to live half my life being judged unfairly by people for something that wasn’t even my choice, and it hurt a lot. But I try very hard to not let it bother me. That is how I am still happy and functioning day to day. If I’d let the pain from these people go into me, I wouldn’t survive.
It is wonderful that you acknowledge certain areas that you can improve in. That is a great thing. Keep it up, and try to not let other people’s judging bother you.December 8, 2011 4:39 am at 4:39 am #916070yentingyentaParticipant
oy ski i feel horrible for you! how could she say that about you? doesnt this person have any tact? and how is telling someone else going to “help” you? it wasn’t like she suggested a way to fix it or whatever. sounds like pure gossip to me
and there is such a thing as judging someone to the other direction. just because i dress refined and more yeshivish than the rest of my family DOES NOT mean i want to marry a learning boy. before you call to suggest, find out what type i want so you don’t sound like a fool
(sorry for the last part. its drives me up the wall when my father tells me he had to say no right off the bat because the person couldn’t ask one simple question prior to calling)December 8, 2011 4:46 am at 4:46 am #916071a maminParticipant
Skiaddict: I truely feel for your predicament..
though I would like to share another wedding scenario with you from yesterday. I was at a chasuna where aniece of the machateneste came dressed in a fashion shall we say different than the whole family. The wedding was quite crowded, but I noticed everyone looking at her, pitying her. It really was awful. The reason is this neice was not brought up this way and only changed her attire within this year. people who knew her before looked at her with shock.Can we say that the crowd of almost 1000 people were all closed minded or shallow. I am not here to judge that. I have one question, if she loves her aunt, why couldnt she dress accordingly just for the chasuna, so as not to stick out and make everyone turn around? When someone not frum from my family attends our simchas, they respect our beliefs and comes dressed accordingly. Why cant someone brought up with the same beliefs have the same respect?December 8, 2011 4:46 am at 4:46 am #916072
Skiaddict, and I do care about you.December 8, 2011 4:50 am at 4:50 am #916073ZeesKiteParticipant
So, this person had/has a problem with communication. Don’t judge her too harshly. She’s working on her problem too…December 8, 2011 5:04 am at 5:04 am #916074ny100kParticipant
What this woman did was nothing wrong. She did absolutely not judge you. She was shocked that there was a blatant violation of tznius. The fact that you tried to be good, doesn’t mean the end result wasn’t a violation. And that violation probably was causing pain to that loved one of yours.
Had she come and given you a speech about it, that might be wrong, but to state the obvious facts, is not a judgement about you.December 8, 2011 5:28 am at 5:28 am #916075
All you people who are judging skiaddict all over again: While what this person said might have technically been correct, you CAN’T say what they did was right. Reproof that is not given with the proper intent (that it should be accepted and utilized) is not real tochacha, and is not only hurtful and counterproductive – it’s stam not right.
And I must say, mdd, to draw a parallel between a bas yisroel struggling with tznius and murderers/rapists is very off-color.December 8, 2011 5:39 am at 5:39 am #916076Queen BeeMemberDecember 8, 2011 6:05 am at 6:05 am #916077old manParticipant
“..a woman commented to my friend that she is shocked at something i was wearing,…”
“..The wedding was quite crowded, but I noticed everyone looking at her, pitying her. It really was awful…”
I notice that an important aspect of these weddings is for (all) the female guests to inspect all other guests in order to ascertain whether each one is obeying the rules of the game. Violators will be notified and punished by social banishment from the club. There is no second chance. If the behavior is corrected, one will say, “Look at her now, but I once saw her….”
This behavior, not new of course but increasingly prevalent, is a recipe for creating a dysfunctional cult-like society. It should be strongly discouraged despite the dubious psychological lift one gets from feeling superior to others.December 8, 2011 6:09 am at 6:09 am #916078HealthParticipant
NY100k – I agree.
How about this? If you don’t want people to judge you or look at you -don’t give them any reason to!!!!!!!!!!! ;@ 🙂December 8, 2011 6:30 am at 6:30 am #916079
Absolutely not! There is a tremendous difference between saying “your relative should be ashamed because of you” and saying “you know, it’s probably not proper to be wearing such a thing. Maybe next time you should do… (obviously depending on how not Tznius it is and what type of lack of Tznius it is).” Just because Skiaddict did something not Tznius does not give someone a right to be rude to her. And saying it to her friend is pure Lashon Harah and not Tochachah in the slightest. There is no excuse for that whatsoever, regardless of what other wrongs may have been committed by other people at the same time.December 8, 2011 11:51 am at 11:51 am #916085
Oneofmany, the common denominator is self-control.December 8, 2011 1:16 pm at 1:16 pm #916086
1. What the woman said was not tochacha, it was pure lashon harah. Not only that, but the “friend” was over rechilus for repeating the lashon harah.
2. Rabbaim, since you could not possibly know what Ski was wearing, your comment was was pointless and mean spirited.December 8, 2011 2:26 pm at 2:26 pm #916087
I agree with Health! In this crazy ikvesa de’Meshicha society it is not the ba’alei aveira who are castigated but those who try opposing them. If there was a real breach of hilchos Tznius (not just a chumra), that woman was right to express her outrage! I have yatzer hora also( I am not going to go into grafic details), but I control myself.December 8, 2011 2:30 pm at 2:30 pm #916088
Sam2, drei nit ken kup, if both of the women saw an obvious violation of Halocha, it is not loshon hora to make a comment about it between themselves.December 8, 2011 2:38 pm at 2:38 pm #916089
Raphael Kaufman: 1. What the woman said was not tochacha, it was pure lashon harah. Not only that, but the “friend” was over rechilus for repeating the lashon harah.
Yes, exactly the point here. I don’t know what the rest of you are talking about.
Why is it so difficult to dress Tniyusdik??
I don’t know. I’m not a woman. But it apparently is very hard.December 8, 2011 3:02 pm at 3:02 pm #916090BTGuyParticipant
I am sorry you had to experience that. Sadly, there are people around us who are too blunt
for their own good, and the insult to injury is they give themselves permission to be blunt
in the name of righteousness, when it is really arrogance.
I am sure we all experienced the same kind of thing.December 8, 2011 3:04 pm at 3:04 pm #916091miritchkaMember
Skiaddict: i’m sorry you had to go through that! We can all learn from this that there are people out there who judge! and they will talk to others, and they may even make or break a shidduch! I’m in no way tryin gto judge you, but maybe we can learn to check the mirror and only leave when we are happy with how others will see us…pathetic, i know. But that is the situation..December 8, 2011 3:27 pm at 3:27 pm #916092
Yatzmich made a very important point. What your friend did was rechilus.
She had a choice to say nothing or tell you later…. You suffered at the wedding because of her choice.
I think you really need to address with her first why she elected to tell you this at the wedding.
I decided once a while back that if someone had something wrong with their outfit (a loose hem, a stain, an ill fit, etc) I would say nothing if they were in a place they could no longer correct it. What were you supposed to do once already at the wedding? You could have left, but you wouldn’t do that unless you agreed that you could not appear in that condition. You did not fully agree or you wouldn’t have showed up like that. So saying anything, unless you’d listen, would be futile, and would only serve to make you feel judged and uncomfortable. You can blame the judge for judging, but you might want to look to the speaker (your friend) for speaking. She DID NOT do you any favors.
The truth is, if you’re going to dress noticeably different in a way that a community doesn’t accept and that makes them uncomfortable, it might be a bit unrealistic to expected people to hold back their shock and dismay. That being said, they weren’t going to change your clothes or opinion that night (so, although, it might be hard to withhold shock, words can be withheld, unless meant to help).
Years ago my husband repeated a very hurtful comment that a friend of his made about me (“doesn’t it bother you that so and so is so wide?”). I was so hurt and angry and spitting mad at this friend for talking about me this way to my chassan. Only later I realized I would never had known about the comment had my DH not told me his friend said that. WHY did he have to tell me?? It wasn’t like I didn’t realize this about myself. All my DH accomplished was to drive a wedge between me and his close friend (and wife) who I no longer wish to associate with.
Talk to your friend and ask her why she told you. I would also ask yourself why you chose to wear something that you probably knew would draw negative attention. You might be crying out to be accepted no matter who you are or how you choose to live. That might be unrealistic. We choose communities, yeshivas, friends, shidduchim in a way that allows us to protect our loved ones, keep them pure from outside influences.
By dressing different you are shouting “I am different”. People don’t see the path; only the confused state, and that scares them.
I think we need to be who we truly are in order to grow, but you might want to show it only to those you know you can trust who will love you, support you in your growth, and not fear your confusion.December 8, 2011 3:30 pm at 3:30 pm #916093
I am also sorry you have friends who are acquainted with such jerks. And if I run over you while snowboarding, I won’t make snide comments about your wearing ski pants. (I’ve heard it is totally muttar, but unwise since nobody will marry you.)
On that topic, I was once snowboarding at Hunter, and when we were leaving, we saw a frum girl wearing a skirt in the parking lot. We were wearing helmets, (and carrying skis and snowboards, and not wearing glasses, and wearing real ski clothing) so we weren’t recognizable necessarily as frum. So my friend says, “hey, how do you ski in that skirt,” knowing that she hadn’t, since we hadn’t seen anyone in a skirt.
She wasn’t happy at us.December 8, 2011 3:31 pm at 3:31 pm #916094oomisParticipant
Since we do not know what you were wearing, it may have been only that woman’s subjective perception that it was not tzniusdig (i.e., a color she disapproves of). Only you know for certain if that is the case. In any case, the woman was totally out of line to make a comment to your friend (if she really was concerned about you she should have approached you discreetly herself). If you are working on your tznius, kol hakavod. That woman needs to work on her L”H problem.December 8, 2011 5:06 pm at 5:06 pm #916096aries2756Participant
Ski, I agree with Sam and Raphael, it was pure loshon horah on that yenta’s part because she was NOT speaking to you directly she was voicing her opinion to someone else so it was not tochacha as a means to help you or correct you. So that is something she needs to work on “Guarding her tongue” as I said earlier.
As far as your friend is concerned. I am not going to agree that it was rechilus because if she was really a good friend I believe she was shocked and angered by the comment and told you out of disappointment and frustration. Had she taken a few minutes to think about how it would hurt you to hear that, she would have “guarded her own tongue” as well.December 8, 2011 5:07 pm at 5:07 pm #916097
popa: Is that wearing pants without a skirt you’re talking about? Why would that be muttar?December 8, 2011 5:09 pm at 5:09 pm #916098PrincessEagleMember
Skiaddict, i’m so sorry for your pain.. Nobody can ever judge ANYBODY and i’m hurt at the indignation with you. It’s a dreadful feeling esp. when you are working at it anyway.
I’ll join the bandwagon and yell to the world, DON’T JUDGE ME!!!!!!!!!!
QueenBee, i’m impressed;) not the fact that you dont struggle with tzinus but the fact that you see it’s a struggle for others and feel for them even without struggling yourself.
+1 Zeeskite – nobody can judge ANYBODY, not the people judging us either! But it’s a tough one that when we are being hurt so much.
Keep us posted skiaddict at how you’re managing to look at how good you truly ARE without letting a terribly hurtful dagger reach a sensitive destination.
Glad you had a nice time otherwise.December 8, 2011 5:21 pm at 5:21 pm #916099
Ski admitted she saw a problem with her outfit and tried to correct it unsuccessfully, so it does not sound like it was this other woman’s subjective opinion alone. I agree, the other woman had NO business talking about ski. But, would ski have known about it had her friend not told her?? Why, ski, did your friend tell you??? Please speak with her and tell her the pain it caused you.
I think if we’re going to analyze whether people have a right to judge, we need to distinguish between judging in one’s mind from SPEAKING about those judgements. The Torah does say “Dan leaf zechus”, so, yes, we are expected to control our judgements. It also says “lifnei iver lo titen…..”. This might be a misapplication of those words, but people are essentially blind to your level and striving. When you behave in a way that is not in line with traditional orthodox thinking (which can vary from community to community, such as wearing red, having a seam sewn onto the back of stockings, etc) it is like a michshol…. Like seeing someone walking into McDonalds. They cannot guess that a person needs the bathroom, or is a diabetic and must get a soda fast….
Maybe it’s just expecting too much. I don’t know…. I imagine, I’ll probably get a lot of flack for this……, but it’s something to think about.December 8, 2011 6:07 pm at 6:07 pm #916100
“I’ve heard it is totally muttar, but unwise since nobody will marry you.” – ha ha popa thats exactly right!!
Everyone i just want to say, ive just now come back to the thread, and the reactions are basically what i expected, some people think its my own fault for dressing like that, which is obviously true BUT! its NOT my fault that this happens to be the area i am struggling the most on, wheras other people in that crowd last night didnt have such a hard struggle in this area, but in more unnoticeable ways eg middos, and yes shmiras haloshon.
The fact is that when i am with another crowd who are not that careful with tznius, but things like peoples bad middos and shmiras haloshon gets them upset, so i conclude that people just feel comfortable with themselves and judge others on what is easy for them – someone who has really struggled with an issue, will NOT judge someone else on it, because they know how hard it is. So if you dont know about it then DONT give your opinion!
And all of you who are not women, tznius is VERY VERY hard, some harder than others depending on your tafkid, in another thread, i said its just as hard as for men to be learning all their spare time.
Thanks so much everyone who sympathized, you really made me feel better, thanx!!
And btw, my friend did not tell me which woman said it, (so i have a pick of a few in my mind), and she herself was shocked that somone could be like that, but she wanted me to realize what kind of crowd i was dealing with, and besides for that, she was feeling very self concsious for a totally unrelated reason, and we had been talking about people who check you out and yach about you, so it came in. Maybe not totally right, but im happy she did.
mdd- mind your own business is TOTALLY a jewish thing! Mah tovu?! We dont look into each others business, we let everyone live their own way. If we think its wrong, we can rebuke them in a PROPER way, like Sam4321 said.
I already said, i am totally for tochacha and protesting things that are against halacha, but in the correct way. ny100k – actually if she would have told me to my face it wouldnt have hurt half as much! Because then i could have explained myself, and made her understand me, AND it would have sunk in much more, i would have felt like, she really feels pained that i did that thing, and rebuke from the heart is very powerful. The fact that she did it behind my back, IS WHAT HURT. That shows that she was just after trying to put me down and didnt care about me at all.
Thanx aries i knew you would have something caring to say, and thanx everyone else! I really really appreciate it!December 8, 2011 6:42 pm at 6:42 pm #916101
Pop, As a kid, I remember seeing short features of folks skiing the old fashioned Nordic way. The women, not Jewish by the way, were skiing in long skirts. If you can find ski or travel magazines from the Thirties and Forties, you can see the pictures. However, I don’t believe that modern Alpine skiing can be done safely wearing a skirt.December 8, 2011 6:50 pm at 6:50 pm #916102sem graduateMember
Ski, I fully agree with you. I recently had a nissayon which I had a hard time overcoming. When I asked someone for advice, she asked what I would answer someone asking me that question. My initial reaction was “just dont do it” but then I realized that saying it does not necessarily mean you will be able to follow that advice. Nobody can possibly know what you are going through and nobody can judge. Whether or not your friend was right in repeating what was said to you is something else entirely; the point is it should never have been said. “Don’t judge a person until you walk a mile in his shoes, and by then, you’ll be a mile a way so he won’t know about it!”December 8, 2011 7:23 pm at 7:23 pm #916103
MDD: Not true. Learn Hilchos Lashon Harah. And even it a case where it was Muttar, saying it in that way is definitely not allowed.December 8, 2011 7:47 pm at 7:47 pm #916104
“and by then, you’ll be a mile a way so he won’t know about it!” Never heard that one! Wish ppl would follow it!December 8, 2011 7:48 pm at 7:48 pm #916105
popa: Is that wearing pants without a skirt you’re talking about? Why would that be muttar?
I don’t know. But I heard it is, from a reliable source.December 8, 2011 7:56 pm at 7:56 pm #916106
Raphael Kaufman: I ski (well, used to, anyway) in a skirt with snow-pants underneath. I never had any problem with it…this is highly unusual…December 8, 2011 8:38 pm at 8:38 pm #916107
R.I. The punch line to that joke is, …by then you’ll be a mile away and you’ll have his shoes.” I think I heard that joke from Stephen Wright but it may be older.December 8, 2011 8:38 pm at 8:38 pm #916108Think firstMember
The woman was over clear cut lashon hara, Halacha states that tochaha is srtaight to the person himself, and Halacha also states that one should only rebuke someone whom will accept it. whoever said that a stranger has the mitzvah of tochacha is wrong in this case. When u see a sitch where let’s say based on the summary of the summary of the person u can tell he won’t eat non kosher, and he’s doing that by mistake, tochacha from a stranger would make sense, howed er, just to see a random girl and decide in ur mind what she should look like and tell her “tzniuz alert” is not tochacha in any form let alone mentioning it to another. PURE LH! So ski addict keep it up that stranger is strange!December 8, 2011 8:41 pm at 8:41 pm #916109Think firstMember
once heard this….
“Why judge man today, if God waits until the end of his days”December 8, 2011 8:53 pm at 8:53 pm #916110
Sam2, I did learn them. Not to judge — it is from the new testament! By Yidden, we judge. The rules are in the “Chofets Chaim”.
If we had real batei dinim, a bunch of ladies would have gotten wiped. The rest would get the message.December 8, 2011 8:59 pm at 8:59 pm #916111
Skiaddict, “Ma tovu!” does not apply to overlooking aveiros and pretending everything is fine.December 8, 2011 9:08 pm at 9:08 pm #916112vayeitzeiMember
I agree with mdd. What if my yetzer hora was to drive a motorcycle around my block on shabbosim? Would you say don’t say anything, don’t talk about it, or don’t give tochacha?December 8, 2011 9:27 pm at 9:27 pm #916113sam4321Participant
vayeitzei: There are those who have compassion and really care about the person and try to help them not sin,and then there those who just talk and say this one is wrong, that one is a kofer. There is a way to go about things. If someone really cares about the other person and then gives him/her tochacha, usually the other party is not insulted, wouldn’t you agree. There is an idea which says take tochacha from anywhere it comes,and separate the person from their words and act upon them.December 8, 2011 9:32 pm at 9:32 pm #916114
I agree with mdd. What if my yetzer hora was to drive a motorcycle around my block on shabbosim? Would you say don’t say anything, don’t talk about it, or don’t give tochacha?
As has been stated a million times on this thread, that makes no sense. The woman in this story didn’t give tochacha, she told lashon hara.
If someone has a yetzer hara to say lashon hara, you should give them tochacha if they say it.
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.