September 9, 2008 7:37 pm at 7:37 pm #588171
Pardon my lack of absolutely perfect grammar, but I will attempt to convey my feelings, and seek your opinion, nevertheless.
I am not asking these questions out of morbidity and depression. I just feel that most discussion on religious matters seem to take on a surreal unearthly quality.September 10, 2008 5:22 am at 5:22 am #621821BrokerParticipant
I think the second post Joseph wrote, is exactly what the write is alluding to!
Your point might be a
good one, but written a little bit too cheesy. Judging from the way you often respond to posters you dont agree with, its hard to believe that you would ever actually write a piece like that!September 10, 2008 5:25 am at 5:25 am #621822namelessMember
Here’s MY question:
If leider’s message is so weak and baseless, why are people commenting with pseudonyms? If everyone is so sincere, why not just post with your real names?September 10, 2008 1:22 pm at 1:22 pm #621823lammed heyMember
I only try to get a smile 🙂
BTW, is the screen name a reference to Schubert?
Nameless: The name states what I feel about some of the posts here. I am just trying to broaden my view of the current frum olam by hearing from both sides, and sometimes try to inject some humor into what denegrates into a screaming match. I also don’t want people comming over during davening to talk about my post! 🙂
Once (Shidduch Crisis) (may be more) I saw the poster leading themselves into a bad situation, and had to say something serious.
BTW Joseph, I am still waiting for your response on that post. And your message here is why pizzas shouldn’t tell Jokes! 🙂September 10, 2008 1:31 pm at 1:31 pm #621824JosephParticipant
Broker, And you once again are short of a passing grade of what we mentioned above: Dan Lkav Zchus!September 10, 2008 1:50 pm at 1:50 pm #621825
Joseph: your first comment is exactly the type of hyped statement I was referring to in my “diatribe”. Your second comment is well taken. I could have been more tactful – but then I suspect that my post would’ve gone relatively unnoticed.
Intellegent: I was not necessarily referring to your comments. Tact and class is always a good idea. The problem is with comments such as the one made by Joseph that I shouldn’t have written this post because I’m lacking in “Dan L’Kaf Zchus”! This is exactly what I meant! People will take nice Hebrew-sounding words; they’ll grab a Posuk here and a shtikel Gemara there; and manage to suppress any thought provoking statements in one fell swoop.
Gavra: You’re 100% right. It’s better to live a Jewish-albeit phony-life, then to go off the derech. I was not proposing that anyone CH”V go off the derech. I was proposing the exact opposite! I suggest we stop for a moment and THINK. Let’s do some introspection! Let’s think in plain English, or Yiddish, or whatever language, and really speak to ourselves and to Hashem. Let’s truly face our fallacies and recognize them as such.
Nameless: Even if one is sincere, there’s still an element of embarrassment to hang your dirty laundry in public. I think, under the disguise of pseudonyms, we can air our innermost thoughts with incurring suicide of reputation.
So guys and gals. What do you think? Are we ready to face our own music, or do we wish to continue trudging along?September 10, 2008 2:28 pm at 2:28 pm #621826blue shirtParticipant
LeiderLeider, well said, and ouch, the truth hurts, doesn’t it? You hit it on the head, good for you. However, I would give the benefit of this doubt to Joseph, he seems to truly believe in what he says. So do I. I disagree with him most of the time, but that is irrelevant for this purpose. To Joseph, shame on you, it is Dan Lekaf Zchus, kaf being the receptacle on the scales (moznayim) which zchus and chova are measured. It is not Lekav (line) zchus. But giving you the benefit of the doubt, maybe it was a typo.September 10, 2008 4:39 pm at 4:39 pm #621827gedalyaMember
You have to drei zich in the right places. There are plenty of groups of chassidishe yidden who despise truly olam hazeh and yearn with their heart and soul for kirvas elokim. Im tvakshenah Kazahav… (my boss is coming)September 10, 2008 7:19 pm at 7:19 pm #621828JewessMember
I truly believe that most of what I do, I do with my heart, not to pretend. Then again, a chassid from Boro Park might not consider me as religious as him/her… maybe some things should be done for the mitzva and not for the competition to be holier than thou…..you might feel more sincere in your observance that way…..???
Maybe you are right, maybe you are wrong. God knows our true intentions. Besides, I remember learning the phrase “MITOCH SHELO LISHMAH, BA LISHMAH” …so either way I think it’s a good thing.September 10, 2008 9:23 pm at 9:23 pm #621829YusselParticipant
The only person you can write about with any authority is yourself. Don’t speak for other people. What can you possibly know about a person based only on some comments or a post on a website? This has nothing to do with trying to ignore a real question, but please, confine your speculations about hypocrisy to yourself.September 11, 2008 3:06 pm at 3:06 pm #621830
Dear Yussel. I appreciate your admonition. Guilty as charged. Now that we have established this and I pled guilty, let’s get this out of the way.
Now, why don’t we tackle the actual subject of my post?
Let me ask you a question. Were you posting this while at work? Assuming you work for someone, would you be posting it while your boss is standing next to you? If not, is it not Geneivah?
Oh, I almost forgot to ask; does you Rav or Rebbe condone the use of internet wherein you so eloquently reproved me? Assuming they have no concerns on the use of internet, what about Bittul Torah? Do you believe you will be able to justify, after 120, why you were writing to LeiderLeider, instead of learning Torah?
I am not here to give Mussar. Believe me that I’m the very last person qualified to give Mussar. The purpose of my post was to cajole us into thinking. Real thinking – not superficial thinking.
Again. I appreciate your comments, indeed I may be wrong, but you have not addressed the message of my post.September 11, 2008 10:43 pm at 10:43 pm #621831SarahMember
In order to be a leaderleader, one might find it useful to get off one’s soapbox and look “deep inside” and do some real thinking – not superficial thinking”. And I mean this sincerely. Really, really sincerely. I also “agree with what [I’m] writing”.
But I did agree with the “I will end my confused post” part. And also the “please spare us the rhetoric” part.
I am also certain of your sincerity, and hope that perhaps you soon will realize that the part about “I appreciate your admonition. Guilty as charged. Now that we have established this and I pled guilty, let’s get this out of the way” is truly, really, a startlingly deficient role model for introspection.
I further hope that you will realize that your assertion that “Most people I know within my Chassidishe community (Borough Park) go through life from beginning to end as one big fake fraudulent charade” is “not nice” (finger wagging). Truly.
Next time, perhaps you might be best off opening a topic on translation of a Mussar Sefer, so that we may all learn. Without badmouthing your neighbors, and making sweeping claims about the rest of humanity (or perhaps only posters). I know that you looked deep inside before you made the generalization about your community, and that you sincerely and truly feel that most of your neighbors, shopkeepers, service people, family, and friends in your community are all one big fake fraudulent charade. Keep on looking; you’ll get there.
Sincerely and unrhetorically yours.September 12, 2008 12:49 pm at 12:49 pm #621832YusselParticipant
“I appreciate your admonition. Guilty as charged. Now that we have established this and I pled guilty, let’s get this out of the way.”
You appear to have contradicted yourself. First, you accuse all Jews of being insincere by not reflecting on their own behavior and then you tell me that my criticism of you is on point but just “let’s get it out of the way”. Where is YOUR chesbon Hanefesh?September 12, 2008 7:03 pm at 7:03 pm #621833
Yussel. I don’t have a cheshbon hanfesh. That’s the whole point! I am as guilty as the others!
Yussel. I ask you. Please tell me. Are we, or are we not, guilty of this?
In accordance with Halachah and in accordance with Daas Torah (as you appear to like the over-usage of Hebrew words), are we allowed to be conversing on the internet right now. Yes or no? If your answer is yes, I have many more questions to ask you, such as what about Daas Torah; what about Bitul Torah; etc. etc. If the answer is no, then I ask you, my dear friend Yussel, what in the world are we doing here being oiver an Aveira Beferhesya?!
Yussel. Please don’t take this in a personal way. But you appear to be the only one contending my point.
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