Do you recognize the 'State of Israel'?

Home Coffeeroom Eretz Yisroel Do you recognize the 'State of Israel'?

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  • #619142

    Litvos
    Member

    Many Hasidic dynasties have conflicting opinions of whether they recognize the State of Israel as a Jewish state. Some Chabad Lubavitchers are supporting the existence, while many don’t but aren’t fervent opposers. The most prominent of all anti-Zionist is unarguably Neturei Karta, alongside many Satmar Hasids who say that only when the Moshiach comes will there be Israel in Eretz Yisroel. What are your thoughts?

    #1214128

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    I hear the can of worms opening right now

    #1214129

    Joseph
    Participant

    May it very soon be abolished and our King Moshiach replace the evil regime.

    #1214130

    DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    It exists. We need to deal with it.

    Regarding whether this is the beginning of the geulah or part of our bitter galus, ???? ???? ?????? ??? ??.

    #1214131

    Avi K
    Participant

    Joseph, you still do not understand the difference between a state and a regime?

    #1214132

    DaasYochid ☕
    Participant
    #1214133

    Health
    Participant

    Avi K -“Joseph, you still do not understand the difference between a state and a regime?”

    Israel is a regime, not a state! It’s like Iran!

    How do you keep defending Israel when they have a Supreme Court like the one now?!?

    Do you think that the removal of Jews from GAZA was a good thing?!?

    How about what’s going on with Amona?

    #1214134

    Little Froggie
    Participant

    It depends if they’re on strike or not.

    #1214135

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    “It exists. We need to deal with it.”

    True, but that’s not a stira to not recognizing it. But maybe your point was that it’s academic.

    “???? ???? ?????? ??? ??”

    what does that mean?

    #1214136

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    LF – lol.

    #1214138

    DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    what does that mean?

    It means that’s the Ribono Shel Olam’s cheshbon, not ours.

    Look at the link I posted. It’s from R’ Reuven Grozovsky, zt”l, and is the mainstream yeshivish hashkofah on this.

    #1214139

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    too tired now, will try to look tom, b”n, thanks, I had missed that link. I thought I had remembered (from when I read it nearly 30 years ago) that he was very anti, so I’m surprised, but then again it was a while ago.

    #1214140

    reuventree555
    Participant

    I’m very confused. What are you guys talking about? How do you not recognize the state?

    Does that mean that if the police was trying to pull you over in Israel–then you would just ignore him? What about border patrol? Are you just going to ignore them in Ben Gurion?

    The Israeli government is in charge of Israel. It’s very simple. How would you “not recognize” the government?

    #1214141

    yytz
    Participant

    The vast majority of Orthodox Jews are pro-Israel, in the sense that they are happy it exists, visit it when they can, and disagree with the people who are criticizing its existence or claiming that it is horribly oppressing the Palestinians.

    As to whether they like the government, or think it speaks for them, or has special religious significance, this depends on the individual and the group.

    Only a small proportion of Orthodox Jews wish the state had never been created and think that it’s overall a bad thing for Jews and non-Jews.

    #1214142

    CTLAWYER
    Participant

    Of course I do…it’s that long skinny thing on the map between Lebanon, Jordan, Egypt and the Med Sea.

    #1214143

    besalel
    Participant

    Joseph, what are your thoughts on Rav Mordechai Attia’s zt”l seifer Lech Lechu?

    #1214144

    Joseph
    Participant

    yytz, chareidim are about 70% of Orthodox Jews, and the vast majority of them are unhappy it was created. Thus a large majority of Orthodox Jews wish the state had never formed.

    #1214145

    besalel
    Participant

    “chareidim are about 70% of Orthodox Jews” I’m curious where you get that from – Ive seen numbers saying about 45%

    “the vast majority of them are unhappy it was created.” the vast majority of chareidim I know do not feel that way. I don’t think you really believe that.

    #1214146

    Joseph
    Participant

    Pew Research census from three years ago determined that 66% of American Orthodox Jews are chareidim. I’d argue they notably underestimated the chareidi portion since their survey was vastly underrepresented in all-chareidi enclaves such as KJ and NS where they speak Yiddish and most won’t answer their survey.

    I have no doubt that the vast majority of chareidi Jews opposed the creation of the state at the time it happened as well as today feel it was a historical/religious error in retrospect. Even if they support the continued current existence of the state due to the alternative at this point being dangerous.

    #1214147

    DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    too tired now, will try to look tom, b”n, thanks, I had missed that link. I thought I had remembered (from when I read it nearly 30 years ago) that he was very anti, so I’m surprised, but then again it was a while ago.

    He is very anti, but is also a pragmatist.

    #1214148

    besalel
    Participant

    I think Pew said 62% but that is of the American Jewish population. I think Israel’s orthodox population is harder to define (because the traditional/orthodox line is blurred) but as a group is much larger than the US orthodox population and is maybe 25-30% Hareidi and maybe another 10% Hareidi-Sefaradi (whatever that is). Surely, the Hareidim are trending towards 70% (or higher) but I dont think we are quite there yet.

    #1214149

    Joseph
    Participant

    Pew also surveyed the Israeli Jewish demographic about two years ago. I think they said chareidim in Israel are a majority of the religious Jews in Israel, with DL slightly behind.

    #1214150

    yytz
    Participant

    A 2014-15 poll by Pew found that 98% of Charedim agreed that any Jew in the world should be able to make aliyah and become a citizen. 65% of Charedim said that the existence of Israel was necessary for the long-term survival of the Jewish people, and 97% of Charedim said that Israel should give preferential treatment to Jews. 86% of Charedim believed halacha should be law in Israel, and 59% believe all Arabs should be expelled. All these suggest Charedim are happy Israel exists.

    #1214151

    Joseph
    Participant

    That survey questionnaire did not give an option for the surveyed person to state he disagrees with the formation of the state. If the surveyed person didn’t agree with the pre-selected responses, his response was omitted from being counted. Hence it is irrelevant in determining how many disagreed with statehood.

    #1214154

    Avi K
    Participant

    Joseph,

    1. The head of Agudat Yisrael in EY, Rav Y.Y. Levin, signed the declaration of independence, obviously with the approval of the Aguda’s poskim. Aooroximately 150 rabbanim signed a kol koreh calling it the beginning ofthe Geula. If you want to remain in denial and be left behind in the plague of darkness that is your problem.

    2. There is bird that is called a ra’ah because it sits in Shmutz LaAretz and sees a neveila in EY (Chulin 63b). Both the Kotzker and Rav Sorotzkin say that this is why it is tamei.

    #1214155

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    DY: “He is very anti, but is also a pragmatist.”

    That’s two different things then. One has to do with how you relate to the State on a hashkafic level, and the other has to do with how you relate to it on a practical level.

    I haven’t read it yet; I am just responding to your comment. But that does fit in with what I understood the mainstream Yeshivish/Chareidi (Agudah) view to be.

    #1214156

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    Reuventree: In response to your question, read my above post. On a practical level, if a police pulls you over, you have to respond and it would be rude and a chilul Hashem not to do so.

    On a hashkafic level you may feel that the State of Israel should not have been created and therefore it is not a legitimate entity, but for practical reasons, you have to acknowledge the fact that l’maaseh, they think they have a right to exist and they are controlling the country and making laws.

    That is to say, as long as those laws do not come into conflict with the Torah. When they come into conflict with the Torah, the Torahdik Dati Leumi people would also say that those laws are not legitimate.

    You should probably see DY’s link above as well since it may help to answer your question.

    #1214157

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    LF: “It depends if they’re on strike or not.”

    Do you recognize them when they’re on strike or when they are not?

    #1214158

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    YYTZ: “A 2014-15 poll by Pew found that 98% of Charedim agreed that any Jew in the world should be able to make aliyah and become a citizen.”

    That has nothing to do with the issue at hand.

    “97% of Charedim said that Israel should give preferential treatment to Jews.”

    Definitely has nothing to do with the issue at hand.

    ” 86% of Charedim believed halacha should be law in Israel”

    That REALLY has nothing do do with the issue at hand. The reason we don’t recognize the state is precisely because halacha is not the law in Israel.

    “59% believe all Arabs should be expelled.”

    Definitely has nothing to do with anything.

    “65% of Charedim said that the existence of Israel was necessary for the long-term survival of the Jewish people”

    They may be referring to now, after the fact of the creation of the State of Israel. Now that there is a State of Israel, it would not be good for us if Hamas took over. That does not mean that things wouldn’t have been better if it hadn’t been created in the first place.

    “All these suggest Charedim are happy Israel exists.”

    You have to differentiate between the Land of Israel and the State of Israel. Two commpletely different things. When Chareidim refer to Israel, they are usually referring to the place, not to the government.

    Also, as DY pointed out, we have to differentiate between our cheshbonos and Hashem’s cheshbonos. At the end of the day, everything that happens is from Hashem. Hashem is the one who enabled and allowed the creation of the State of Israel. We don’t know why. Everything is ultimately for our good (although we can say the same about the holocaust, etc. as well, yet it would be terrible for someone to say he is happy the holocaust happened).

    Our cheshbonos are that it was assur for the State of Israel to be created the way it was (at least according to most Gedolim) and that the State of Israel caused many to stop keeping Torah and Mitzvos. We can’t be happy about that no matter how many postitive things seem to have come out of the State.

    At the same time, now that the State exists, we can’t ignore it even if we don’t think it’s legitimate, although we can and must ignore those laws that go against the Torah. And we certainly don’t want it taken over by Hamas. And we certainly have to stand up for its right to exist when we are dealing with “umos haolam”. Their reasons for denying its right to exist are not the same as ours, and again, today, post-facto, we certainly do not want it to destroyed, since the alternative would be far worst.

    One day soon, Im yirtzeh Hashem, we will understand the deeper meaning behind all of this as well as behind everything else that has happened. Meanwhile, we must remember that our Nationhood and identity is based on the Torah and nothing else, while at the same time, on a practical level, we have to deal with the reality of the State of Israel.

    #1214159

    Excellence
    Participant

    Adding my two dinarim…

    One, nothing happens without permission and approval from Heaven.

    Two, should we continue to live at the mercy of the peasants of eastern europe? Read the real life accounts of the biographies – we were at their mercy every month.

    #1214160

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    “One, nothing happens without permission and approval from Heaven.”

    True. The holocaust also only happened because Hashem wanted it to. It doesn’t mean we should be happen about it.

    In this case, all the more so, since we are talking about aveiros. We can’t be happy about our aveiros even if Hashem enables us to do them.

    #1214161

    “recognize the State of Israel as a Jewish state” – what does that mean?

    (Is any Jewish government other than a monarchy appointed

    by a navi in the name of Hashem recognized by Judaism?)

    #1214162

    Litvos
    Member

    It’s up to you to answer what does it mean.

    #1214163

    Excellence
    Participant

    Lets look at the score board… The government of the tyrant Alexander Yannai and mass murderer Herod killed almost every rabbi. The fool King Ahaz tried to erase all Torah learning. I can give many more example if you want.

    This Israeli government protects its Jews. It’s a thumbs-up from me.

    #1214164

    assurnet
    Participant

    I think you can clarify the difference between your run of the mill anti-zionist mainstream charedi and a proper anti-zionist like a satmar chassid with the following hypothetical:

    If tomorrow Bibi and all the other members of knesset were to do teshuva, put on black kippahs, start consulting with gedolim and only passing laws that were in line with halacha would you still have an issue with the state existing?

    From what I understand the minority of poskim such as Reb Yoilish held that creating a state under any circumstances is an issur gamur, whereas rov poskim held the way it was done l’maisah wasn’t allowed (i.e. a secular state founded by a bunch of apikorsim which encouraged droves of yiddin off the derech) but that if a group of rabbanim had founded a halacha state there wouldn’t have been an issur involved.

    #1214165

    Joseph
    Participant

    The Israeli government has tried to shmad the Jews numerous times.

    #1214166

    Joseph
    Participant

    assurnet, the non-chasidic gedolim and the Chasidish gedolim other than Satmar, including Rav Elchonon Wasserman, the Chofetz Chaim, Rav Aharon Kotler, the Brisker Rov, the Munkatcher Rebbe, etc., all held it as assur to create a state regardless of who created it.

    #1214167

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    Excellence – we’re not comparing ourselves to Goyim.

    #1214168

    Bilbo
    Participant

    It seems to me that some posters here may be missing a sense of history. The Jewish people have never had “it” figured out. There have been seminal issues throughout our history which we, and no generation before us, have fully dealt with (see the Rambam who says Public Fasts are to keep in mind that our sins are the same as our forefathers). Galus is a process and a messy one at that. It is a process that we go through knowing that it will culminate with an Am Yisrael worthy of a true Geulah. Saying the State of Israel should not exist is tantamount to saying adolescence should not exist because of all of the insane things teenagers do. Like adolescence the creation of the state of Israel is a part in of our development, it is a vital piece of the process that leads to something meaningful. I am not going to sit here an enumerate all the incredible programs the government of Israel fund and have in place which allow the Chareidi community here to flourish in-spite of the fact that it is an unsustainable model without any outside assistance. The amount of money the State gives to charedi families, arnona breaks, schooling etc. all this for a community that fights the government tooth and nail not to involve themselves in society except where it benefits them (obviously I am stereotyping here but this is the over all sentiment). That being said I agree that there are serious issues with the government but I do not for a second believe that if we were to give over the reigns to the “Gedolim” (quotations not meant to be insulting, just saying “whoever they are”) that all of a sudden we would have a perfect state and Moshiach would come riding to town. We as a nation are not ready yet for a geula or it would have happened. It took hundreds of years of insanity (the shoftim period) before we were ready for a King and even then we messed it up…and when we finally had “peace” during Shlomo HaMelech it lasted a few decades before everything went to off the rails. There is no way to escape process…there are no shortcuts. We are the Am HaNivchar and Am Kadosh but we are not a perfect people and no sect among us has it figured out. If you think things should change that is great, criticisim (so long as it comes from the right place and is properly voiced) is how we move forward but to start saying that the State of Israel, which has against insane odds come into being, lasted as long as it has (and G-d willing will continue),done as much as it has for Am Yisrael (Yes Joseph, even Chareidim and even though there have been terrible stories here and there in their treatment of chareidim) should never have been I think, in my less than humble opinion, is a big mistake. My sincere apologies for the grammar here.

    #1214169

    Joseph
    Participant

    Hitler, too, against all odds came into power in one of “civilizations” great countries, lasted as long as he did against the odds, military rebuilt Germany so shortly after they were disarmed following their loss of the Great War and committed the heinous quantity of destruction against normative human ability.

    #1214170

    mik5
    Participant

    Historically, the Lubavitcher Rebbeim were vehemently opposed to Zionism.

    As were the following gedolim: the Chofetz Chaim, Chazon Ish, Brisker Rav, Rav Schach, Rav A. Miller, the Satmar Rebbe, and the list goes on.

    One of the major rabbis who supported Zionism was Rav Kook, but he died over a decade before the Medina was formed. Plus, the people who cite Rav Kook as a reason to support Zionism probably don’t follow the other things that he said [such as women not voting]. By the way, the Satmar Rebbe straight out called Rav Kook a rasha.

    #1214171

    fgg

    #1214172

    How Come zionists of all stripes and Mizrachistim are obsessed whether Charedim recognize the State Of Israel?

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