Does a Divorce indicate a Family lacked Shalom Bayis?

Home Forums Family Matters Does a Divorce indicate a Family lacked Shalom Bayis?

Viewing 39 posts - 1 through 39 (of 39 total)
  • Author
    Posts
  • #607437

    Naysberg
    Member

    If a couple divorced, does that necessarily demonstrate that they lacked shalom bayis?

    #913347

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Usually; but I can think of exceptions based on halachic considerations.

    #913348

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    Nah, sometimes it’s just that they were hypnotized accidentally while watching a magic show, and had their memories switched, so that they think they didn’t have shalom bayis, but really they did.

    That’s why any competent rav would ask if they have been to a magic show lately before granting a divorce.

    #913349

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Yeah, that too.

    #913350

    cantgetit
    Member

    DaasYochid: Those halachicly required divorces you are referring to are generally speaking, too, an indication of a lack of sholom bayis.

    #913351

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    DaasYochid: Those halachicly required divorces you are referring to are generally speaking, too, an indication of a lack of sholom bayis.

    Not where he’s a kohen.

    #913352

    artchill
    Participant

    Nah!!! Of course it’s not an indication of lack of Shalom Bayis! Don’t all healthy couples who love each other get divorced???

    #913353

    besalel
    Participant

    the way you posed the original question is a misnomer. its like asking is it always true that one who sits in the dark has no light in his room. but if you mean can two people who loved and may still love each other get divorced, i think most will agree, yes. (but love is only one part of sholom bayis.)

    #913354

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Popa, correct. Or if they are childless after ten years, although for some reason, that’s usually not kept (I think Rivash addresses this).

    #913355

    Naysberg
    Member

    Kohanim is usually not kept either. The Kohen usually says he “doesn’t believe it”, and even if it is true he can stay married.

    #913356

    frummy in the tummy
    Participant

    Or a soldier who dies and they wrote a get to work lemafraiya.

    #913357

    frummy in the tummy
    Participant

    (or if he’s mia)

    #913358

    musser zoger
    Participant

    Or a goses w/o kids gives a get if brother wouldn’t give chalitza to the widow.

    #913359

    Toi
    Participant

    no they lacked carrots.

    #913360

    Bar Shattya
    Member

    yeah, or maybe she just double-dared him to

    #913361

    Torah613Torah
    Participant

    Does starvation indicate a lack of food?

    #913362

    cantgetit
    Member

    The Gemora and Shulchan Aruch talks about divorcing a wife for burning dinner or even finding a prettier wife, examples that may be non shalom Bahia issues.

    #913363

    Health
    Participant

    Naysberg -“If a couple divorced, does that necessarily demonstrate that they lacked shalom bayis?”

    In my case there wasn’t so much Sholom Bayis and I’m divorced, but the honest truth is I know couples much worse than I was with Sholom Bayis and are still married.

    #913364

    Seahorse
    Member

    What is the purpose of the Talmud allowing divorce over burnt food? Do the rabbis really want so many divorces and such pressure put on women?

    #1806133

    RebbeDebbie
    Participant

    It could also mean that the shadchan was not invited to the wedding, or paid the going rate in full when the engagement was made.

    #1806148

    catch yourself
    Participant

    I am personally acquainted with a Kohen Ba’al Teshuva who had to divorce his wife when they found out that he wasn’t allowed to marry her since she was a Giyores. There were no Shalom Bayis issues, but the Halacha required the divorce. I was good friends with one of their sons who is a Challal, and whose younger brothers [from his father’s second wife] are Kohanim.

    cantgetit, seahorse:

    The Gemara there is discussing the legal possibility that a divorce may happen over such trivialities, not whether it is recommended. In fact, that same passage of the Gemara says that if someone divorces his first wife, even the Mizbei’ach cries over it. Divorce without strong grounds is strongly discouraged in our Halachic literature and in our culture. Halacha also prohibits a man from divorcing without legitimate cause.

    In any case, if there were true Shalom Bayis, it is inconceivable that a man would divorce his wife over a burnt supper, or because he found a prettier wife.

    #1806162

    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    How come the Beis Hilell holds that divorce can be done even if she burns his food? The answer is, if he wants to divorce for that, then there is no help for that marriage. The mizbeach cries for divorcing the first wife because the mizbeach brihgs peace. At the wedding they are mochel the sins because sholam bayis is already such a geat nisoyan and they doh’t need to be also burdened with all their sins.

    #1806212

    Takes2-2tango
    Participant

    Do all marriages indicate that the couple was extremely anxious to leave thier parents house,because they simply couldn’t deal with the pressures of living at home anymore?

    #1806206

    lakewhut
    Participant

    That or they are really self-absorbed

    #1806240

    iacisrmma
    Participant

    To those who are new to the CR please add the word “bump” to your reply to let us oldtimers know you are commenting on a long dormant discussion. It is east to tell as the replies are date stamped.

    #1806294

    Joseph
    Participant

    iac, why do the old timers need to see the flag “bump” given that, as you point out, it is easy to tell as the replies are date stamped? Unless what you’re really trying to hint is that the old timers might not have yet put on their reading glasses or more ominously their mental acumen is not what it used to be.

    #1806291

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    Do all marriages indicate that the couple was extremely anxious to leave thier parents house,because they simply couldn’t deal with the pressures of living at home anymore?

    No. I was not anxious to leave my mother’s house and I had no problems living with my mother and sister. I got married because I loved (and, nearly thirty years later, still do love) my wife and wanted to spend my life with her.

    The Wolf

    #1806341

    Takes2-2tango
    Participant

    Wolf:
    My question
    was rehtorical!

    #1806208

    Gadolhadorah
    Participant

    A man who literally seeks a get for a wife who burns his dinner will himself find an even more offensive burning smell in his version of olam habah (aka gehenom). Even our usual trolls have shown some restraint in recent years in posting such idiotic justifications for offensive behavior because one might bring down a literal holding or inyan from chazal. As others have frequently noted, you can probably find some basis from an out of context excerpt from tanach or some arcane gematria to prove or disprove anything you wish to belief.

    Today we know from both gadolei torah and frum psychologists, family relations experts, etc. that in certain cases, divorce is not just the only option but it is the BEST option for the man and wife but also for the children. Obviously, we should exhaust all other options but there may be reasons beyond shalom bayis why a divorce is necessary.

    #1806457

    iacisrmma
    Participant

    joseph: My first impulse is to look at the most recent post not the OP.

    #1806472

    RebbeDebbie
    Participant

    What if the husband divorces the wife (with a get) over the burnt food, but then he later marries her again. That’s a mitzvah he would not have been able to do if the wife did not burn the food in the first place!

    #1806479

    Gadolhadorah
    Participant

    RebDeb: The second marriage would likely be annulled by a beis din on the grounds that BOTH parties were mentally incapacitated. The husband was crazy for having used a burnt kugel as an excuse to file for a get and the wife even crazier for having remarried such a lunatic. One might also question the competence of any Rav who would knowingly be masader kiddushin for two such nutcases.

    #1806497

    justme22
    Participant

    * by violence I just mean fighting and not necessarily violence

    #1806496

    justme22
    Participant

    I think it depends on what constitutes shalom bayis.
    Can something come up after there were years of shalom that brakes all trust ? A secret comes up about the business that is not acceptable for example…perhaps there was a challenge like that was there before marriage that they thought they could deal with but couldn’t.
    So if shalom means that there is no fighting maybe but if shalom includes a higher standard of connection and honesty then it’s probably an indication that there was not
    That’s what I would think

    #1806519

    bsharg2
    Participant

    Personally I would not divorce unless there was physical abuse. That would literally be the only thing that would let me entertain the idea of divorce.
    Divorce destroys lives, is one of the biggest stressors a person can have, and destroys children.

    #1806674

    The little I know
    Participant

    bsharg2:

    It would be unfair to minimize the multiple forms of tzaar from physical abuse. But i think your comment is unrealistic, and certainly nothing you could suggest to others.

    There are other forms of abuse that are intolerable. There may be dynamics to a marriage that help make an abusive marriage, even if physical abuse is absent, unliveable.

    There are also times when even a non-abusive marriage is a horrible experience for one or both parties, and these are potentially deadly for the kids. The concept of “staying together for the kids” sounds really nice and kind, but is so often toxic.

    As much as we should revere the institution of marriage, and go to extreme lengths to protect it, we must be aware that it is sometimes best terminated – hence a parsha of gittin in the Torah. Reaching the determination that this is the best direction may be a complex issue, but it is not a good idea to suggest that the only way to divorce is if there was physical abuse.

    #1806721

    middle-grounded
    Participant

    A sincere question… here’s a sincere answer… 9/10 people would say a quick yes to your question… but in our world today, with another forum already titled “is Facebook to blame for rising Orthodox divorce rate” , and many responses on this forumn already poking fun, pointing fingers elsewhere, questioning the ‘shalom bayis’ in homes where divorce isn’t present, or just sounding hopeless in general, I’ll answer your question with a question… What DOES Shalom Bayis mean? What does it mean to ‘Lack’ or ‘Have’ Shalom Bayis? In a world where the distractions of daily life, even with ‘kosher’ gashmi things, are increasingly bombarding a person’s every moment, most people are making choices minute by minute that they are being TOLD to make, SHOULD make, or HAVE TO make. Find a married couple, or older single, or divorced single living with Shalom, minute by minute Shalom with the daily choices that they’re making, within the framework of Da’as Torah, and you will find a Bayis with Shalom. No matter its form…. Focusing on the point you asked regarding family, a family is made of many different parts and many different personalities. That said, a person, even from a divorced home, (or a married home lacking shalom) that has a personal Shalom with their daily choices and daas torah, and is b’simcha, DOES have Shalom Bayis no matter what their ‘family’ might lack. The opposite can also unfortunately be true… Hatzlacha!

    #1807215

    Shopping613 🌠
    Participant

    @bsharg2

    Emotional and Mental abuse and neglect are scientifically proven to affect children much more than phsyical abuse. Just sayin’.

    #1807285

    knaidlach
    Participant

    shopping613.
    to support what you are saying: there is a yiddish expression: א פאטש פארגייט און א ווארט באשטייט, meaning, that a patch will pass but a ‘word’ will remain.

Viewing 39 posts - 1 through 39 (of 39 total)
  • You must be logged in to reply to this topic.