December 14, 2012 3:12 pm at 3:12 pm #607437
If a couple divorced, does that necessarily demonstrate that they lacked shalom bayis?December 14, 2012 3:19 pm at 3:19 pm #913347
Usually; but I can think of exceptions based on halachic considerations.December 14, 2012 3:27 pm at 3:27 pm #913348
Nah, sometimes it’s just that they were hypnotized accidentally while watching a magic show, and had their memories switched, so that they think they didn’t have shalom bayis, but really they did.
That’s why any competent rav would ask if they have been to a magic show lately before granting a divorce.December 14, 2012 3:32 pm at 3:32 pm #913349
Yeah, that too.December 14, 2012 3:34 pm at 3:34 pm #913350
DaasYochid: Those halachicly required divorces you are referring to are generally speaking, too, an indication of a lack of sholom bayis.December 14, 2012 4:05 pm at 4:05 pm #913351
DaasYochid: Those halachicly required divorces you are referring to are generally speaking, too, an indication of a lack of sholom bayis.
Not where he’s a kohen.December 14, 2012 4:13 pm at 4:13 pm #913352
Nah!!! Of course it’s not an indication of lack of Shalom Bayis! Don’t all healthy couples who love each other get divorced???December 14, 2012 5:17 pm at 5:17 pm #913353
the way you posed the original question is a misnomer. its like asking is it always true that one who sits in the dark has no light in his room. but if you mean can two people who loved and may still love each other get divorced, i think most will agree, yes. (but love is only one part of sholom bayis.)December 14, 2012 5:37 pm at 5:37 pm #913354
Popa, correct. Or if they are childless after ten years, although for some reason, that’s usually not kept (I think Rivash addresses this).December 14, 2012 6:13 pm at 6:13 pm #913355
Kohanim is usually not kept either. The Kohen usually says he “doesn’t believe it”, and even if it is true he can stay married.December 14, 2012 6:21 pm at 6:21 pm #913356
frummy in the tummyParticipant
Or a soldier who dies and they wrote a get to work lemafraiya.December 14, 2012 6:26 pm at 6:26 pm #913357
frummy in the tummyParticipant
(or if he’s mia)December 14, 2012 6:27 pm at 6:27 pm #913358
Or a goses w/o kids gives a get if brother wouldn’t give chalitza to the widow.December 15, 2012 5:15 pm at 5:15 pm #913359
no they lacked carrots.December 16, 2012 1:45 am at 1:45 am #913360
yeah, or maybe she just double-dared him toDecember 16, 2012 3:03 am at 3:03 am #913361
Does starvation indicate a lack of food?December 16, 2012 6:13 am at 6:13 am #913362
The Gemora and Shulchan Aruch talks about divorcing a wife for burning dinner or even finding a prettier wife, examples that may be non shalom Bahia issues.December 16, 2012 8:25 pm at 8:25 pm #913363
Naysberg -“If a couple divorced, does that necessarily demonstrate that they lacked shalom bayis?”
In my case there wasn’t so much Sholom Bayis and I’m divorced, but the honest truth is I know couples much worse than I was with Sholom Bayis and are still married.December 17, 2012 3:26 am at 3:26 am #913364
What is the purpose of the Talmud allowing divorce over burnt food? Do the rabbis really want so many divorces and such pressure put on women?December 1, 2019 9:50 am at 9:50 am #1806133
It could also mean that the shadchan was not invited to the wedding, or paid the going rate in full when the engagement was made.December 1, 2019 10:58 am at 10:58 am #1806148
I am personally acquainted with a Kohen Ba’al Teshuva who had to divorce his wife when they found out that he wasn’t allowed to marry her since she was a Giyores. There were no Shalom Bayis issues, but the Halacha required the divorce. I was good friends with one of their sons who is a Challal, and whose younger brothers [from his father’s second wife] are Kohanim.
The Gemara there is discussing the legal possibility that a divorce may happen over such trivialities, not whether it is recommended. In fact, that same passage of the Gemara says that if someone divorces his first wife, even the Mizbei’ach cries over it. Divorce without strong grounds is strongly discouraged in our Halachic literature and in our culture. Halacha also prohibits a man from divorcing without legitimate cause.
In any case, if there were true Shalom Bayis, it is inconceivable that a man would divorce his wife over a burnt supper, or because he found a prettier wife.December 1, 2019 11:19 am at 11:19 am #1806162
How come the Beis Hilell holds that divorce can be done even if she burns his food? The answer is, if he wants to divorce for that, then there is no help for that marriage. The mizbeach cries for divorcing the first wife because the mizbeach brihgs peace. At the wedding they are mochel the sins because sholam bayis is already such a geat nisoyan and they doh’t need to be also burdened with all their sins.December 1, 2019 12:15 pm at 12:15 pm #1806212
Do all marriages indicate that the couple was extremely anxious to leave thier parents house,because they simply couldn’t deal with the pressures of living at home anymore?December 1, 2019 12:16 pm at 12:16 pm #1806206
That or they are really self-absorbedDecember 1, 2019 1:37 pm at 1:37 pm #1806240
To those who are new to the CR please add the word “bump” to your reply to let us oldtimers know you are commenting on a long dormant discussion. It is east to tell as the replies are date stamped.December 1, 2019 3:29 pm at 3:29 pm #1806294
iac, why do the old timers need to see the flag “bump” given that, as you point out, it is easy to tell as the replies are date stamped? Unless what you’re really trying to hint is that the old timers might not have yet put on their reading glasses or more ominously their mental acumen is not what it used to be.December 1, 2019 3:29 pm at 3:29 pm #1806291
Do all marriages indicate that the couple was extremely anxious to leave thier parents house,because they simply couldn’t deal with the pressures of living at home anymore?
No. I was not anxious to leave my mother’s house and I had no problems living with my mother and sister. I got married because I loved (and, nearly thirty years later, still do love) my wife and wanted to spend my life with her.
The WolfDecember 1, 2019 4:15 pm at 4:15 pm #1806341
was rehtorical!December 1, 2019 4:34 pm at 4:34 pm #1806208
A man who literally seeks a get for a wife who burns his dinner will himself find an even more offensive burning smell in his version of olam habah (aka gehenom). Even our usual trolls have shown some restraint in recent years in posting such idiotic justifications for offensive behavior because one might bring down a literal holding or inyan from chazal. As others have frequently noted, you can probably find some basis from an out of context excerpt from tanach or some arcane gematria to prove or disprove anything you wish to belief.
Today we know from both gadolei torah and frum psychologists, family relations experts, etc. that in certain cases, divorce is not just the only option but it is the BEST option for the man and wife but also for the children. Obviously, we should exhaust all other options but there may be reasons beyond shalom bayis why a divorce is necessary.December 1, 2019 5:02 pm at 5:02 pm #1806457
joseph: My first impulse is to look at the most recent post not the OP.December 1, 2019 5:22 pm at 5:22 pm #1806472
What if the husband divorces the wife (with a get) over the burnt food, but then he later marries her again. That’s a mitzvah he would not have been able to do if the wife did not burn the food in the first place!December 1, 2019 5:47 pm at 5:47 pm #1806479
RebDeb: The second marriage would likely be annulled by a beis din on the grounds that BOTH parties were mentally incapacitated. The husband was crazy for having used a burnt kugel as an excuse to file for a get and the wife even crazier for having remarried such a lunatic. One might also question the competence of any Rav who would knowingly be masader kiddushin for two such nutcases.December 1, 2019 7:46 pm at 7:46 pm #1806497
* by violence I just mean fighting and not necessarily violenceDecember 1, 2019 7:47 pm at 7:47 pm #1806496
I think it depends on what constitutes shalom bayis.
Can something come up after there were years of shalom that brakes all trust ? A secret comes up about the business that is not acceptable for example…perhaps there was a challenge like that was there before marriage that they thought they could deal with but couldn’t.
So if shalom means that there is no fighting maybe but if shalom includes a higher standard of connection and honesty then it’s probably an indication that there was not
That’s what I would thinkDecember 1, 2019 11:54 pm at 11:54 pm #1806519
Personally I would not divorce unless there was physical abuse. That would literally be the only thing that would let me entertain the idea of divorce.
Divorce destroys lives, is one of the biggest stressors a person can have, and destroys children.December 2, 2019 12:43 pm at 12:43 pm #1806674
The little I knowParticipant
It would be unfair to minimize the multiple forms of tzaar from physical abuse. But i think your comment is unrealistic, and certainly nothing you could suggest to others.
There are other forms of abuse that are intolerable. There may be dynamics to a marriage that help make an abusive marriage, even if physical abuse is absent, unliveable.
There are also times when even a non-abusive marriage is a horrible experience for one or both parties, and these are potentially deadly for the kids. The concept of “staying together for the kids” sounds really nice and kind, but is so often toxic.
As much as we should revere the institution of marriage, and go to extreme lengths to protect it, we must be aware that it is sometimes best terminated – hence a parsha of gittin in the Torah. Reaching the determination that this is the best direction may be a complex issue, but it is not a good idea to suggest that the only way to divorce is if there was physical abuse.December 2, 2019 2:41 pm at 2:41 pm #1806721
A sincere question… here’s a sincere answer… 9/10 people would say a quick yes to your question… but in our world today, with another forum already titled “is Facebook to blame for rising Orthodox divorce rate” , and many responses on this forumn already poking fun, pointing fingers elsewhere, questioning the ‘shalom bayis’ in homes where divorce isn’t present, or just sounding hopeless in general, I’ll answer your question with a question… What DOES Shalom Bayis mean? What does it mean to ‘Lack’ or ‘Have’ Shalom Bayis? In a world where the distractions of daily life, even with ‘kosher’ gashmi things, are increasingly bombarding a person’s every moment, most people are making choices minute by minute that they are being TOLD to make, SHOULD make, or HAVE TO make. Find a married couple, or older single, or divorced single living with Shalom, minute by minute Shalom with the daily choices that they’re making, within the framework of Da’as Torah, and you will find a Bayis with Shalom. No matter its form…. Focusing on the point you asked regarding family, a family is made of many different parts and many different personalities. That said, a person, even from a divorced home, (or a married home lacking shalom) that has a personal Shalom with their daily choices and daas torah, and is b’simcha, DOES have Shalom Bayis no matter what their ‘family’ might lack. The opposite can also unfortunately be true… Hatzlacha!December 3, 2019 5:25 pm at 5:25 pm #1807215
Emotional and Mental abuse and neglect are scientifically proven to affect children much more than phsyical abuse. Just sayin’.December 3, 2019 10:26 pm at 10:26 pm #1807285
to support what you are saying: there is a yiddish expression: א פאטש פארגייט און א ווארט באשטייט, meaning, that a patch will pass but a ‘word’ will remain.
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