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I had a music teacher in high school who said a lot of popular musicians use classical music and laugh because the audience has no clue. He was right. I hear classical music used all the time in goyish popular music. And I hear it Jewish music too.
A600KiloBear, Yes, classical music can be used for Notzrut, or for other uses that I don’t particularly care for. Nevertheless, the source of the music–the spark of creativity used to write it, could only come from one source.
Perhaps it is time that our schools taught people those kind of answers and the thinking behind them. So more of them will have the ability to go to college without fear.
In many cases, it is extremely impractical to postpone college until after marriage.
starwolf
Member
you need a doctor, do you think that he or she should not have pursued his or her knowledge for its own sake? The best ones do, you know.
Joseph
Member
I don’t believe that for a moment. They studied the material for the sake of practice, not for the sake of knowledge alone.
Joseph, you have no clue. Either that, or you are creating a distinction that does not exist outside of the hypothetical theatre of your own mind. I don’t know what you mean by studying for the sake of practice, unless you meant that the only reason doctors study in medical school is so that they can do their job. This is far from true.
Intellectuals and academics do study for the sake of the knowledge, in any field of study. Many doctors are in fact, altruists (and I think you are in the minority if you have trouble agreeing with this), and many of them are academically interested in knowledge of the human body. I would include myself in this category, despite the fact that I am not a doctor. I can only assume that you have never experienced an academic thirst for knowledge.
Your statement was wrong, and no amount of distortion on your part can change that. It was also off topic, because I believe we were discussing from a pure Torah standpoint.
From a pure Torah standpoint, you are also wrong. Knowledge is allowed, encouraged, and central to Torah Judaism. In the Mishna it lists 4 questions that may not be asked. It does not forbid other academic pursuits. In the Torah it says “ki yish’alcha bincho mochor lai’mor mah zos”. Meforshim interpret this quite broadly. It is an extremely recent philosophy amongst Torah jews that says the entire purpose of the world is to distract and tempt the Jew and the entire purpose of the Jew is to shut out the world (in fact, it sounds like the dogma of a certain other religion). Until a few hundred years ago, this philosophy never existed. To say that it is the one true Torah viewpoint is fallacious and close-minded (not surprising, considering). This philosophy emerged only as the collective faith of religious Jews started to falter in the face of enlightenment. It was to save Jews who would otherwise be lost. But the original true Torah viewpoint is that the world is here for us to enjoy and appreciate and elevate. I eagerly admit that in the present age a Torah Jew should not follow this path without a proper mentor (a ben torah, baal yiras shomayim) – but I contend that this was always the case. Proper mentors today, however, are rare and getting rarer (thanks mostly to the yeshivish movement).
For you to say that a Jew has no right to learn for the sake of learning, or for self-actualization, or to limit this to the study of ancient texts alone is completely off the mark. I encourage you to follow the philosophy that you have been brought up with, however – I take umbridge at your callous attack (made in ignorance) at academia at large. As a academic (and formerly a university academic), I am offended by your attitude. I would encourage you to educate yourself on the subject before commenting, but that advice would be self-defeating 🙂 🙂 🙂
I have said everything I want to say on the subject. I will not discuss this further.
I tend to be pretty left wing as far as this crowd goes, and I’m all for yeshiva boys getting a good secular education, but even I recognize that a co-ed dorm situation (not a classroom situation) would be very, very problematic.
Joseph posted: “starwolf, Today for the right price anyone can get a piece of paper that says semicha on it. “
Indeed. And they can bolster their credentials among some folks by forbidding all sorts of secular education, denying that any type of knowledge comes from the goyim,and insisting that previous Rabbanim could never ever have been incorrect in anything that they said. Its a good strategy.
That is why we should not follow people blindly………
BS”D
Nevertheless, the source of the music–the spark of creativity used to write it, could only come from one source.
—
Yes. That one source is klipa.
I don’t know of any university that doesn’t offer single-gender dorms, if requested.
Hashem gave us a brain for a reason. Yes, it is to learn Torah, but it is also to understand and enjoy the world around us. It is not for nothing that we say a bracha “SheChalak m’Chochmoso l’Yerei-av.” We have an obligation to use the talents Hashem gives us, for learning and for growing in all aspects of education. We need doctors, scientists, GOOD educators, plumbers, electricians, carpenters, accountants, farmers. None of these things can be accomplished without education in secular areas of life. If all Jews ONLY learned Torah (and when Moshiach comes we can experience that), there would be no Jews learning how to do the other things that sustain us in life also.
A yeshivah bochur in Kollel does not know how to suture a wound, much less do brain surgery. Secular education is needed for that. Any frum Jew who believes otherwise, had better pray hard that he never needs the services of someone who also had a secular education.
All you have to do is look at what the GRA held (I believe it was his talmid R’ Baruch?? who wrote it) about learning secular knowledge.
There is no Torah knowledge without learning general knowledge. Learning geometry will help you learn Gemarah so much better.
Using the “if only” logic, again, R’ Wolbe went to college as a non-frum secular Jew. He attended the “Hillel” of his days (staffed by great rabbanim, in college as well) and he turned out to become a nice frum man.
To follow up on what oomis said, its not just about jobs and tasks, its about knowledge, the opposite of ignorance. There was a long discussion on another thread which I won’t rehash about the sources of knowledge and hot to attain knowledge.
Secular education is needed. Co-ed education is NOT needed. If it is needed, one should wait until he’s married, or get married young. The pitfalls of a co-ed college are obvious and numerous. No sane person can deny this. People go to college to party. This is an image portrayed in goyishe popular culture, as well as numerous news stories where college partying clashes with law. This is undeniable and not subject to debate.
People go to college to party. This is an image portrayed in goyishe popular culture, as well as numerous news stories where college partying clashes with law. This is undeniable and not subject to debate.
I deny it and debate it. I went to college (and am still going now) and do not party.
In general, I find that whenever anyone says something is “undeniable” and “not subject to debate” it usually is.
The Wolf
Jothar,
Why is it not subject to debate? Why is it undeniable?
Have you gone to a co-ed college, or is this what you were told?
squeak,
You are confusing studying Jewish material with studying secular material. There is a universe of difference between the two. If you cannot see the world of difference between studying Torah subjects to, l’havdil elef havdolos, studying the liberal arts, science, culture, literature, law, etc. (as starwolf is talking about), then nothing I will say will allow you to see the sunshine out there.
I have said everything I want to you on this topic. I hope we will still be mikvah buddies.
The idea that people go to college to party is shown in TV/Movies etc for a few reasons. Not least of which is that showing a bunch of people sitting in the library doing homework on TV would be really dull. 😉 At any college there are those who go out and party a lot. I know when I was in University we had them. I even went to one or two parties(and generally left pretty quickly) But there are a lot of other people who spend their time trying to study and get top grades. Even at the “Party Schools” you will find that most of the party goers are a pretty small group of people.
Wolfish, which college did you attend? Was it a local college, like Brooklyn or Lehman, or a dorm college? Furthermore, how many years ago (ballpark) was this? I have spoken to friends of mine who do campus kiruv, and yes my understanding is the correct one. It’s possible your experiences are outdated or non-normative.
There are sooo many opportunities for frum people Touro, YU, Stern, Sara Schnierer, Bulka, Raizel Reit-TTI….. People 20 yrs ago didn’t feel comfortable- they just took their courses and went home!-Nowadays, people definitely don’t belong in co-ed colleges unless they’re really intellectual and not socializing at all.
Don’t fool yourself college campus is not the place for a frum person!! If you are on campus please be careful!
Touro and YU have built up outstanding reputations there is no need to go elsewhere…
squeak: You ought of told me that you are a secular academic years ago – it would have put so much into perspective!
I went to University to get an education. I guess I flunked the partying courses–by nonattendance.
Perhaps Jothar should have a look at the curricula in the Universities where I currently teach.
They do not leave much time for partying.
That is not to say that one could not do those things. But, as I posted, that is not what we are discussing here; I think that we can all agree that partying is not a good use of one’s time. Of course, I also think that we should expect that a good Torah home education and 12 years of pre-college schooling should have taught that lesson. If not–why do people spend all that money and effort on Jewish education?
As far as coed education, the few single-sex colleges that exist do not always offer a full set of majors, and they may also not be of the same quality as the coed universities (depending on the major).
I would recommend that someone attending a co-ed college should try to find one close to home, so he can commute. If he must attend college in another city, in my opinion it would be best to choose a college near a frum community & to live within the community rather than on campus.
The answer to these types of questions is always “it depends”- on the person, the school, the course of study, etc. My husband and I both went to a CUNY school where most of the student body lived off campus. We were married during most of our time there, but there are plenty of frum singles there too. There is no campus life beyond class and the library, no parties, no craziness. You go there for class, and then you go home- to your parents, your spouse, or your frum roommates. We even had some frum professors, which was great for weekday yontifs- one less class to fall behind in! It was a great experience, and we were happy to get a world-class education without having to compromise on any of our principles or values (or our wallets for that matter), and our friends who went (or still go) feel pretty much the same way. In terms of tznius, once you take dorm life out of the equation, you won’t encounter anything you wouldn’t see in the subway; in terms of kefira, you can pick and choose your classes and your major, and even if something does come up (say, having to read new testament in a lit course) you can work it out with the professor- most are very accommodating.
I would say that one who wants to go to a secular college should go somewhere local where they can live at home instead of the dorms, which takes care of 90% of the problem. The other 10% is solved by having a Rav to consult with, and using your sechel.
Getting married young helps too, although that is not always in your control, and I wouldn’t postpone school while you wait for it to happen. I’m glad I didn’t wait to start- now that we are expecting, it’s a relief to be done with college, and had we not started before getting married, we would still be in school when the baby comes, and while it’s totally doable, I hear it’s VERY difficult.
Another tidbit- I don’t know how it is at other places, but I found that a lot of people in my classes were a little older than the typical undergrad- say 23-25 instead of 18-21. They had gotten some work and world experience before coming to school, and that made for a much more mature group- they were there to learn and succeed in their studies, not to party; when you find yourself with such a group of people, it makes for a richer and spiritually safer educational experience.
Lastly, since you are there to study and get a degree, and not for the narishkeit that happens at many campuses, you can take heavier course loads, thus shortening your stay there. Both of us finished in 3 years, rather than the usual 4. This is a great option for married people (see above), as well as for those who truly view college as a b’dieved or necessary evil.
BS”D
There is no Torah knowledge without learning general knowledge.
Wrong. It is the other way around. Remember – reishis chochma yiras Hashem.
If you do not have a strong grounding in Torah knowledge, you will not have the tools to differentiate between valid general knowledge which brings you to a greater understanding of the Creator (or is just what you need for parnosso) and the universalist, anti-Torah brainwashing that you can be subject to in a university setting.
“should of? In which college did you learn English?”
Whichever “Noderator” wrote that, I will be happy to participate with in an English composition comparison. On the fly forum posts notwithstanding.
Here’s a quote from a famous study, which isn’t hearsay and isn’t bloviation from Ultra-Orthodox blog commenters- it was a well-researched study done by Modern Orthodox types who support college:
From a blog piece by Rabbi Reuven Spolter:
That’s right. One quarter. If twenty students graduated from your local high school and head off to campus, five of them won’t consider themselves Orthodox in four years – after a full twelve years of intensive Orthodox education. What causes this drop off? It’s not the intellectual pressures, by and large. No, it’s the social environment.
__________
Most of the above blog post from Rabbi Spolter has been snipped for family reading. Starwolf’s anecdote notwithstanding, the evidence is strongly against co-ed colleges. This is not my false claim. This is the product of a well-researched study done by a Modern Orthodox organization. So much for the claim that 12 years of yeshiva education inoculates someone against the moral dangers of a college. I agree with Gourmet that local CUNY colleges are a much better option than dorming.The question is a local CUNY vs. Touro, Lander or YU. The lack of ivy and over-sized marble porticoes on the frum colleges is a small price to pay for Orthodoxy. You can still get a job with those degrees.
To learn secular studies, not for the sake of making a living or for practical purposes but just for their own sake is against Halachah, and belittles the value of Torah learning, which you should be spending your time on instead. The Rama (YD 246:4) rules that a person may only learn secular subjects “incidentally” but not as an educational pursuit. Rav Elchonon Wasserman (Koevetz Shiruim 2:47) and Rav Boruch Ber Lebowitz (Birkas Shmuel Kiddushin) both have responsa on this topic (both responsa were, incidentally, written for Rav Schwab ZT’L.) They both conclude that for non-Parnasa or similar reasons, it is prohibited to pursue a secular education, as per the Rama above. The reason is because of Bitul Torah and/or Kovod HaTorah. Rav Moshe Feinstein ZT’L also absolutely prohibits college in a famous speech delivered to his students, translated and titled “Counsel of the Wicked” (New York: Vaad LeHaromas Keren HaTorah, 1978), as well as a teshuva in writing on basically the same grounds as Rav Elchonon ZT’L and Rav Boruch Ber ZT’L.
A yeshivah bochur in Kollel does not know how to suture a wound, much less do brain surgery. Secular education is needed for that. Any frum Jew who believes otherwise, had better pray hard that he never needs the services of someone who also had a secular education.
BS”D
I am a graduate of an Ivy League college. I cannot repair anything related to gas or electricity and have only a basic knowledge of plumbing, too basic to trust myself. I also do not consider myself able to attempt to repair an automobile or even to maintain one, and I am “too old to learn” even if I do have the inclination to do so. Anyone with secular education who thinks they know it all should remember that unless you are doing it for parnosso, you are not learning much of anything that helps you in the real world. And if you want parnosso, skilled trades are just as honorable and more lucrative than all but the top tiers of the top paying professions, which are more and more closed off anyway especially with the contraction of the economy and the bureaucratization of health care.
My yeshiva educated friends who are internet or computer professionals and I learned computer skills the same way – by doing. I was at least 29 when I first logged on to the Internet, about 33 when I first used a graphics program, and 40 when I built my first commercial site. I don’t even think Word existed when I was in college, and I learned Lotus (predecessor to Excel) afterward. These skills, as well as repairing a computer which, guess what, I taught myself, are skills I use in real life. The devarim betelim I learned in college are of so little interest to me that I think the last time I even read a book related to my major (history) was seven years ago on a trans-Atlantic flight. And I don’t even want to talk about the divrei kefira I learned there, unavoidable because it was part of the required curriculum. Though it does haunt me at times, most of it convinced me only that “ashreinu ma tov chelkeinu”!
Now, would someone care to fix my farshtunkener kitchen faucet that hasn’t worked properly in a year? (I actually do know how but like many who acquire theoretical knowledge, I can’t apply this in the real world especially as a flood may result).
Jothar, in my experience, most of the students who go off the derech in college are kids who are waiting to be out of Yeshiva and their parents house to do so. (yes, this is just my limited experience) I could have told you who from my high school class wasn’t going to be frum anymore well before they graduated.
I went to Stern for a year but it really wasnt the school for me. I wanted a much more technical school. I was choosing between Virginia Tech (no Jews), University of Maryland (tons of Jews) and Brooklyn Polytech (few frum Jews, but not much of a dorm life / campus life). Virginia Tech was my first choice for education, but my family was strongly against it. We struck a bargain and I stayed in NY for school. Luckily for me, I met my husband there 🙂
Interestingly, the engineering school was mainly male. I was the only female student in many of my classes.
“There is no Torah knowledge without learning general knowledge.
Wrong. It is the other way around. Remember – reishis chochma yiras Hashem.”
So you disagree with the GRA, that’s fine. Just don’t tell others that they don’t have a right to agree with the GRA because it doesn’t fit in with the current “morals” of yeshivish Judaism.
(I also wonder how many of the parents of YWN posters would not be married had it not been for their meeting in college.)
BS”D
Does anyone know if any of the Twersky brothers (R’ Dr Avraham, R’ Aaron, Reb Michel, R’ Shloime A”H) completed traditional undergraduate degrees or did they just get credits and go on to graduate school? The latter is a far more practical solution – you get exactly what you need from the secular system without wasting time or wasting your Yiddishe neshomo.
A600KiloBear posted: “And if you want parnosso, skilled trades are just as honorable and more lucrative than all but the top tiers of the top paying professions….”
He is correct. Especially when you compare the amount earned in dollars per hour.
So we know that most people like doctors and scientists do not work “incidentally” or for parnasa alone–there are many more lucrative ways to earn money for less time invested.
Luckily, many people in our history have disagreed with Joseph’s sources–people who are Torah Jews (although Joseph and others of his ilk may disagree). Our history is full of famous physicians and astronomers, who did not learn “incidentally”. And there are many full-time professional scientists and academics who are shomer mitzvot, who are living testimony to the erroneous nature of Joseph’s opinions.
BS”D
So you disagree with the GRA, that’s fine.
By definition, as a Chossid, I disagree very strongly with (though of course highly respect) the GR”A (and I am very aware that he was a mathematician of note). I also think you are twisting his words, but since I do not learn the GR”A’s Torah, I have no way of knowing whether my assumption is correct.
And even if this is correct, there is a severe problem of yeridas hadorois, as well as the format of college. I doubt the GR”A learned in a university which was at all like that of today.
While the Lubavitcher Rebbe certainly did study technical subjects in university, most of his knowledge of mathematics and all of his knowledge of languages were obtained prior to attending same, from tutors and independent learning here where he grew up. Guess where the Lubavitcher Rebbe learned languages using dictionaries and books (and where I acquired much of my ability to read Italian)…hint – you say a brocho after you leave there…
Jothar, in my experience, most of the students who go off the derech in college are kids who are waiting to be out of Yeshiva and their parents house to do so. (yes, this is just my limited experience) I could have told you who from my high school class wasn’t going to be frum anymore well before they graduated.
BS”D
Of the 10 or so cases of OTD I knew in college (who were by no means compensated for by myself and another handful of BT’s but I had made up my mind to go as I did before I started college anyway and would have dropped out to learn Torah if I could have), 2 were as you described. The others had spent 1-2 years learning in tzioinish yeshivos before college and came in shtark – but left frei or worse yet, CONservative.
BS”D
“A bochur in college in nisht in yeshiva, nit kein in a Yiddishe sviva, nisht emmes, nisht emmes!” (Reb YomTov Ehrlich).
SJS, I remember when that study came out. The 25% stat is just the tip of the iceberg. (It’s available for perusal on the Avichai foundation website, for those who want to read it.) Even kids with strong beliefs can’t help but be affected by an immoral atmosphere which pervades on colleges. the constant battles wear you down. It’s also hard to generalize and say “all 25% of Orthodox students who went off were overly susceptible”. The plural of “anecdote” isn’t “data”.
20% of a job skill is learned in college. the other 80% comes from on-the-job training. (I read this in my college textbooks). Does the slight gain in pre-job training warrant playing Russian Roulette with one’s neshoma? Furthermore, is 25% lose their Orthodox affiliation entirely, it’s hard to imagine that such a high casualty count doesn’t affect the rest. If a nasty battle on a battlefield causes 25% of soldiers to return in body bags, you can bet that many other are wounded.
(This is ignoring the debate if college itself is permissible. Joseph implies that college for parnassah purposes is muttar according to most poskim but never spells it out. I am hereby doing so for him. As always, Ask your LOR)
From page 26 in the report:
Changes in Jewish Observance
In addition, two out of three Jewish college students
change their level of Jewish observance during their
college years. Notably, they are almost twice as likely
to decrease their observance level as they are to
increase it (Figure 4).
In sum, according to the Avi Chai report:
25% of Orthodox people in mixed colleges lose their Orthodox affiliation.
67% of Jews decrease their observance level by being in a campus college.
Defending co-ed colleges as a chiyuv or hanhaga tova for frum Jews at this point is untenable, unless you view tha above statistics as acceptable outcomes.
Joseph wrote: “The Rama (YD 246:4) rules that a person may only learn secular subjects “incidentally” but not as an educational pursuit.”
starwolf responded: “Luckily, many people in our history have disagreed with Joseph’s sources.”
starwolf:
Name ONE source please that disagrees with this Rama.
Or are you just making stuff up as you go along?
Jothar: I didn’t say college is permitted for parnassah purposes; I said secular studies are.
starwolf: I await even your even ONE QUOTE who disagrees with the aforementioned Rama. I have quoted many (Rav Moshe Feinstein ZT’L, Rav Boruch Ber Liebowitz ZT’L and Rav Elchonon Wasserman ZT’L) who have ruled in accordance with it. Let’s here ONE quote from you. Which Rishon? You don’t even have an Achron…
Brian Wansink, the PHD author of the prize-winning book “Mindless Eating”, notes in his book that placing bowls of mini chocolate treats 5 feet further away from test subjects resulted in 5 fewer chocolates eaten per day. Yes, if they wanted candy they knew where to go. but the ease and availability of it being closer caused many more diet slippages than having it less available. Much of our behavior is mindless, which is why easily available temptation is much worse than temptation which needs to be searched out.
Joseph, I believe Reb Elchonon’s letter was referring to pursuing secular studies in a university. Where else does one pursue secular studies?
Many gedolim mattir college based on the chiyuv to teach one’s son a parnassah, many do not. Eilu Va’eilu.
Joseph, The Vilna Gaon disagrees with that Rema.
truthsharer: What is your citation (and/or quote)? I dully suggest you grotesquely misunderstand the GRA. Your krumme interpretation of what he personally did, is no raya of what he held.
Jothar: I did not purport one way or the other. I merely quoted.
First of all the Rema says:
“it is permissible to now and then study secular wisdom, provided that this excludes works of heresy… and that one [first] knows what is permissible and forbidden, and the rules and the mitzvot” YD:246:4
“The Gaon considered secular knowledge to be a vital adjunct to Torah study. He was knowledgeable in almost all secular fields and authored books on grammar and mathematics. ” The Short Vort, R’ Eisenmann from Passaic
R’ Hershel Schachter – “What is the relationship between secular knowledge, and a proper derekh
halimmud?
The Vilna Gaon is quoted as saying that to the extent one is lacking in secular
knowledge of the sciences, and so on, one is lacking a hundred times more in
Torah. There are certain areas where secular knowledge is essential. A good example
would be in the area of kashrus. In order to paskin the laws of kashrus, one must have
an understanding of food chemistry.
Rabbi Soloveitchik once spoke at an RCA convention, and dealt with the issue of
shuls that permitted the use of a microphone on Shabbos. He said that, with regard to
those who permitted the use of a microphone, he wondered whether they understood
the Halakha well enough to permit this; with regard to those who prohibited the use of a
microphone, he wondered whether they understood physics well enough to prohibit
this.”
There are many others, but you get my drift.
Jothar, I wasn’t arguing with the study, just giving my perspective.
I wonder if the study broke down what types of schools people went to? Brooklyn Polytech had almost no party life and you really had to work to be a part of it. Then, the only people you would be partying with were geeky engineers LOL.
IIRC, the study was faulty. It got a lot of ink in the Jewish Action.
As far as the Vilna Gaon’s position on secular studies:
The GRA held that objective knowledge (i.e. mathematics and certain sciences) could be studied for the purposes of enhancing one’s Torah understanding. He most certainly did not allow studying secular subjects “for its own sake.”
In fact, in the aforementioned Shulchan Aruch/Rama I quoted, it is the GRA himself who approvingly comments that the source of the prohibition of studying secular knowledge for non-parnasa type reasons, is from the Yerushalmi!!
The bottom line is, NO ONE disagrees with the aforementioned Rama.
Did you even read the quotes?
Wolfish, which college did you attend? Was it a local college, like Brooklyn or Lehman, or a dorm college? Furthermore, how many years ago (ballpark) was this? I have spoken to friends of mine who do campus kiruv, and yes my understanding is the correct one. It’s possible your experiences are outdated or non-normative.
I went to school as an undergrad at a local school about twenty years ago. I am in grad school now, also locally.
You’ll also note that I made a distinction between local colleges and out of town colleges on the first page of this train wreck of a thread.
The Wolf
Jothar, which students did this study survey? Did the students attend local colleges as commuters, or did they attend colleges far from home? If the latter, did they live on campus or in frum communities off-campus?
I knew about a dozen other frum people who attended my commuter college. They all remained at the same level of religious observance, though one pharmacy student who’d attended a co-ed high school now supports a husband in kollel.
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