December 2, 2019 7:35 am at 7:35 am #1806515
I was deeply saddened to see that Rabbi Mendy Turen, Chabad Rabbi in Springfield, Illinois and keynote speaker at the recent Kinus Hashluchim 5780 in NJ say multiple times that the Rebbe is melech hamashiach. He spoke in front of a ca crowd of 5000 Chabad rabbis/shluchim and it is shocking/appealing that noone from Chabad is speaking out agagainst this lie and apikorsos!December 2, 2019 8:27 am at 8:27 am #1806573
It’s not really apikorsus. A lot if Jews believe that their rabbi Could he moshiach.December 2, 2019 9:13 am at 9:13 am #1806596
lakewhut could be and is are two different things. Believing that a dead Rebbe is moshiach is idol worship, and there is no way around it.December 2, 2019 9:14 am at 9:14 am #1806598
If you look at the gemora in Perek Chelek, where each of the talmidim thought that their rebbi was Meshiach. According to the Rav Abarbanel, Meshiach is an acronym for Menachem, Shiloh, Yinon and Chanina. There rebbies were all alive at that time.December 2, 2019 9:21 am at 9:21 am #1806616
Most shluchim dont believe in calling the rebbe melech hamoshiach being that moshiach didnt come yet, but that doesn’t mean he cant be when moshiach comesDecember 2, 2019 10:15 am at 10:15 am #1806628
To believe that a departed Rabbi is the Moshiach is not apikorsus or idol worship. This much is clear from the Gemora. To belive that he is a part of God is apikorsus.December 2, 2019 10:15 am at 10:15 am #1806637
It seems there is some ignorance here, turen did not talk at the kkinus and would never be invited to there is a separate kinus that began that is not run by merkaz linyonei chinuch or it’s sub organizations, it is not recognized by any of the chabads official organizations.December 2, 2019 10:16 am at 10:16 am #1806629
Believing that a dead Rebbe is moshiach is idol worship,
No, it is not — but claiming that it is, is itself a symptom of idol worship. The only way you could possibly come by such a view is if you are not a Jew but a Xian, and therefore to you the word “Messiah” means a god, r”l. Xians worship the person they call “Messiah”, so it’s very important to them that he is the Messiah. Jews, actual Jews, believe that the moshiach (lower case M) who will soon come will be an ordinary person, of flesh and blood, and no more an object of worship than any tzadik. He will be a king and a religious leader, not a divine entity.
And while we expect that he will be someone who is currently alive, there’s no actual reason he can’t be someone who is not currently alive but will be then. We already believe that techiyas hameisim will occur in stages, and the greatest tzadikim, who will be needed immediately, will return then. So there’s no reason one of those early risers could not turn out to be the moshiach. I don’t expect that to happen, but I wouldn’t be shocked if it did. Maybe even Dovid himself (though that would contradict a gemoro that says the moshiach will be descended from Shlomo; but maybe the moshiach will not pasken like that gemoro).December 2, 2019 10:17 am at 10:17 am #1806636
Rabbi Mendy Turen was NOT the keynote speaker at the Kinus Hashluchim attended by 5,000 Chabad Rabbis/Shluchim.
Rather, he was the keynote speaker at the separate gathering of those Rabbis/Shluchim who share his philosophy. That gathering was held in a hall in Crown Heights with a maximum seating capacity of 650 and it was not full — perhaps there were 500 in attendance.
This is an important piece of fact that dispels the perception that “most” of Chabad shares Rabbi Turen’s philosophy. The official Kinus Hashluchim attracted 5,000. This fringe gathering attracted perhaps 500.December 2, 2019 10:29 am at 10:29 am #1806652
The Gemara also says that Chizkiyahu HaMelech was worthy of being Mashiach, but the Dor wasn’t worthy. If Mashiach can come from the dead (even after they’ve been resurrected), then why doesn’t the Gemara say that he could STILL be Mashiach?
an Israeli YidDecember 2, 2019 10:41 am at 10:41 am #1806657
I listened to the live webcast and did not see or hear such a pronouncement from anyone. I’m sure there are some in the crowd who might agree to such a moishichist message with respect to the Rebbe, Z’L, but I know that the 770 leadership prefer to avoid this broigas and don’t run around waving yellow flags at these Annual events which try to bring together all the shalichim with the big Chabad donors in a celebratory event free from partisan bickering.December 2, 2019 12:43 pm at 12:43 pm #1806664
“If you look at the gemora in Perek Chelek, where each of the talmidim thought that their rebbi was Meshiach. According to the Rav Abarbanel, Meshiach is an acronym for Menachem, Shiloh, Yinon and Chanina. There rebbies were all alive at that time.“
They said that moshiach’s name is ……
They didn’t say their rebbe is moshiach
(And for sure they didn’t curse each other out because in essence they’re saying that it isn’t going to be your rebbe)December 2, 2019 12:43 pm at 12:43 pm #1806667
the official gathering does not endorse the open messianic wing. While only 10 percent attended the parallel event, that tells only how many do not want to proclaim their view publically. How many hold such beliefs in private is a wholly other matter.December 2, 2019 3:19 pm at 3:19 pm #1806799
mendy’s father and i attended grammar school together. A religious zionist orthodox school in chicago. his parents were frum, ehrlich people very devoted to the mizrachi/religious zionist movement. i have no idea how he (and a brother, i think) ended up in chabad but i will tell you that he is a very outspoken, but not communily accepted, voice. The mainstream chabad has fought their growth and organizations very forcefully. He is a part of the ‘moshiach center’, the only one of the chabad minyanim that the community boys have been told by their rabbeim that they are not to participate in. A kind hearted soul but seemingly very misguided.December 2, 2019 4:43 pm at 4:43 pm #1806823
Mr Turen isn’t a Chabad Shliach (pro tip: to see who is a Shliach, visit Chabad.org/centers), and does not represent Chabad in any capacity. The event he spoke at was not the Kinnus HaShluchim, but rather a private event of like-minded individuals.December 2, 2019 5:21 pm at 5:21 pm #1806834
The gemora in Perek Chelek where the talmidim think it is their rebbi:
תלמוד בבלי מסכת סנהדרין דף צח עמוד ב
מה שמו? דבי רבי שילא אמרי: שילה שמו, שנאמר עד כי יבא שילה. דבי רבי ינאי אמרי: ינון שמו, שנאמר יהי שמו לעולם לפני שמש ינון שמו. דבי רבי חנינה
אמר: חנינה שמו, שנאמר אשר לא אתן לכם חנינה. ויש אומרים מנחם בן חזקיה שמו, שנאמר כי רחק ממני מנחם משיב נפשי.
It also looks like there are two views of Rashi if he can be from the dead:
תלמוד בבלי מסכת סנהדרין דף צח עמוד ב
אמר רב: אי מן חייא הוא – כגון רבינו הקדוש, אי מן מתיא הוא – כגון דניאל איש חמודות.
רש”י מסכת סנהדרין דף צח עמוד ב
אי מן חייא הוא כגון רבינו הקדוש – אם משיח מאותן שחיים עכשיו ודאי היינו רבינו הקדוש, דסובל תחלואים וחסיד גמור הוה, כדאמרינן בבבא
מציעא (פה, א), ואם היה מאותן שמתו כבר – היה דניאל איש חמודות שנדון ביסורין בגוב אריות וחסיד גמור היה, והאי כגון לאו דווקא, לישנא אחרינא:
כגון רבינו הקדוש, כלומר, אם יש דוגמתו בחיים היינו רבינו הקדוש, ואם דוגמא הוא למתים, היינו כגון דניאל איש חמודות.December 2, 2019 6:54 pm at 6:54 pm #1806836
There is a radio show on motzi Shabbos called “Moisiach Now” which offers a very nuanced view of the prevailing Chabad shita that allows for one to believe in the imminent arrival of moishiach w/o necessarily coming out and saying that the “arrival” is really the “return” of the Rebbe. Likewise, there is enough debate among chazal as noted in the above posts (and prior threads) regarding the belief in one’s rebbe being moishiach for one to accept a more agressive view of how the rebbe himself dealt with the issue w/o it being characterized as mamash apikorsus.December 2, 2019 7:31 pm at 7:31 pm #1806845
I’m a Chabad insider close to many shluchim from all sides of Lubabvitch. Rabbi mendy is one of the most inspiring and successful shluchim under the age of 30. Some very prestigious members of the yeshivish community have happily eaten by his Springfield Illinois home and if anyone on this thread ever needed his hachnosas orichim he would be there jumping for joy ready to serve you, that’s the type of guy he is. Rabbi Mendy asks shaylos even for many subjects most of us just assume we know what to do he didn’t give his speech or any of his classes without clearing them with top rabbanim particularly one that was actually just honored by corporate Chabad at their melaveh malka at the same time that he was giving his keynote address at the Crown Heights kinus hashluchim. Although it is silly to play the numbers game they definitely had more than 650 attendees. I encourage anyone who has any questions or concerns to reach out to Rabbi Mendy but please also consider leaving him a donation for his time. Good night.December 2, 2019 7:32 pm at 7:32 pm #1806859
There are many in Chabad who believe their Rebbe is moshiach, some seem to shy away from publicizing this, while others think the publicity is a positive.December 2, 2019 7:32 pm at 7:32 pm #1806860
Correction: The name of the radio show is “Moishiach in the Air”December 2, 2019 7:32 pm at 7:32 pm #1806866
A bunch of self hating lubavitchers
Every single lubavitcher believes whether they wave yellow flags or not (maybe a select few not) that the rebbe is moshiach.
The OP didnt really care which kinnus it was he had a question which about chabad believes the rebbe is moshiach and you are avoiding to answer by saying that that’s not the real kinnusDecember 2, 2019 7:32 pm at 7:32 pm #1806867
This topic has been debated here many times and no one plans on changing thier opinion based on whats written here.
But in answer to the OP question the answer as mentiond by other ppl here there is no problem to say your rebbe is moshiach
If you don’t like it – don’t watch chabad programs againDecember 3, 2019 9:49 am at 9:49 am #1807017
“there is no problem to say your rebbe is moshiach..”
Strange that we don’t see equally passionate debates here in the CR as to whether Reb Aaron or Reb Zalman Leb could be Moishiach, or even Reb Yolish Z’L. Given the importance of Z’man moishiach to their relationship with EY (versus Medinas Yisroel) one might think they would be “highly motivated” to speculate as to WHO, when and where compared to the Chabad yellow flag wavers.
Perhaps they know something the rest of us don’t and are reluctant to share with the rest of the tziburDecember 3, 2019 11:20 pm at 11:20 pm #1807293
The reason why nobody is debating whether Reb Aharon or The Satmer rov is Moshiach is because they weren’t Shaya he of it, frosty being that they did not affect all of world Jewry etc.December 3, 2019 11:20 pm at 11:20 pm #1807294
Correction to the above answer- they do not fit the Rambam’s criteria of who Moshiach is.December 4, 2019 5:12 am at 5:12 am #1807298
anIsraeliYid, Chizkiyahu could very easily have become the moshiach; he had a unique opportunity but he blew it. See Malbim on the story in Tanach. When Nevuchadnetzar sent an ambassador to find out why the sun had stopped, instead of saying it was Hashem showing his concern for Am Yisroel during Sancheriv’s siege, he said it was a private miracle for himself, to show that he would recover from his illness. Had he said the right thing, Nevuchadnetzar would have sent the ten tribes back home, and would have resolved never to try invading Eretz Yisrael, and that would have been the geulah. This is what the gemora means, that he didn’t say shira on Sancheriv’s fall. He did say shira — but for his recovery, which was the wrong reason.
Technically Chizkiyahu could still return and be the moshiach, but there’s no reason to expect anything like that.December 4, 2019 8:55 am at 8:55 am #1807340
Lol, the biggest proof that all of Chabad believes the Rebbe is Moshiach is that they don’t vehemently condemn those who say it outright. I can promise you, if any litvishe gadol came out and proclaimed with full sincerity that one of his colleagues was Moshiach, the firestorm of condemnation would take approx. 5 minutes to fall. They all believe it, just have different ways of bringing him back. Go ask any chabadsker to unequivocally proclaim he’s not moshiach. They will never, ever do that.December 4, 2019 9:22 am at 9:22 am #1807369
@toi there are even Chabad websites that claim that their dead Rebbe is Moshiach. The Chabad of Central New Jersey has entire section dedicated to offering “proofs” that he is Moshiach. You are correct that noone comes out and condemns such nonsense.December 4, 2019 9:23 am at 9:23 am #1807368
I don’t consider myself that educated, and I wonder why that when I look for the subject of who or what is Moshiach, it feels like I get 15 different contradictory answers, so I’m just going to wonder this instead,
the left in American campaigns and the British left are saying and signing openly anti-Semitic letters and things. I see no outrage or apologies or pullbacks there.
And only a very small group seems to be concerned with it.December 4, 2019 10:51 am at 10:51 am #1807392
The rule is that Chabad people believe the Rebbe is Moshiach. Those who don’t proclaim it publicly still believe it privately. There may be rare exceptions to this rule, but it is the rule.December 4, 2019 10:51 am at 10:51 am #1807394
I still haven’t seen a mekor from the gemara or the rishonim where they said on the same person that he is moshiach while he was alive that he would be the mochiach once he was dead.December 4, 2019 11:42 am at 11:42 am #1807404
Uncle Ben: I don’t think you are going to find a “smoking gun” in the context of what you call a “mekor” which explicitly or unequivocally stand for the inyan of a person being moshiach [in waiting]while he was alive and then continuing to be he mochiach once he was dead. That same person might have arguably sang the words during his life “achakeh lo b’chol yom she’yovah”. Its not even clear that someone who is held to be moishiach by his followers would know during his lifetime that he was so designated by the Ebeshter. My point is simply that there is no way to prove or disprove these types of beliefs, notwithstanding what chazal bring down regarding the attributes or criteria to be moishiach.December 4, 2019 12:41 pm at 12:41 pm #1807418
“Correction to the above answer- they do not fit the Rambam’s criteria of who Moshiach is.”
Nor did / does RMMS.December 4, 2019 2:19 pm at 2:19 pm #1807522
if any litvishe gadol came out and proclaimed with full sincerity that one of his colleagues was Moshiach, the firestorm of condemnation would take approx. 5 minutes to fall.
From whom? Only from amhoratzim and apikorsim, who don’t believe that Moshiach is a bosor vodom.
Go ask any chabadsker to unequivocally proclaim he’s not moshiach. They will never, ever do that.
Of course not. How could anyone unequivocally proclaim such a thing? I think it is unlikely that the Lubavitcher Rebbe will be the moshiach, but I have no basis for ruling it out completely, and neither do you. You and the messianics are guilty of the same error: you both are trying to add an item 12a, to the 13 ikkarim. They want to say “I believe that the moshiach will come, and it will be the Rebbe”, and you want to say “I believe that the moshiach will come and it will be anyone but the Rebbe”. You’re both equally wrong.December 4, 2019 3:16 pm at 3:16 pm #1807532
Only according to Hillel can a bosor v’dom be Meshiach because his coming and Techyiyas Hamesim will be at one time, but he is dismissed from halacha.December 4, 2019 3:16 pm at 3:16 pm #1807531December 4, 2019 5:48 pm at 5:48 pm #1807583
Oy gevant here we go again.gifDecember 4, 2019 5:49 pm at 5:49 pm #1807585
Only according to Hillel can a bosor v’dom be Meshiach, because his coming and Techyiyas Hamesim will be at one time, but he is dismissed from halacha.
You’re both an amho’oretz and an apikores.
1. Hillel has nothing to do with this subject.
2. One who does not believe moshiach will be a bosor vodam is an outright apikores.
3. Techiyas hameisim will be in stages, and those who will be needed immediately will rise immediately when the moshiach comes or even earlier.December 4, 2019 5:50 pm at 5:50 pm #1807589
Discussing whether Reb Aharon or The Satmer rov could be the moshiach, meirs asserted that they could not because “they do not fit the Rambam’s criteria of who Moshiach is”. MDG replied that the Lubavitcher Rebbe doesn’t either, and meirs insists that he, unlike them, does.
The truth depends on what you mean by “fit the criteria”. The Rambam gives very few criteria for who could be the moshiach, and based on those criteria all three qualify. The Rambam’s main point is to give criteria for how we will know when someone is the moshiach. He says we will know the moshiach by his actions, and gives two sets of tasks that he holds the moshiach will perform; if someone has performed the first set then we can assume he probably is the moshiach, pending his completion of the second set.
If this is what you’re referring to, then none of the three performed even the first set, let alone the second. The Lubavitcher Rebbe did certain things that could be seen as symbolically foreshadowing the tasks that the moshiach will perform. Had he then gone on to perform those tasks themselves (or if he ever does perform them) then those earlier actions would be seen in hindsight as a beginning, much like the symbolic actions the nevi’im used to take, to signify later realities. If one were to analyze the lives of the other two the same way, one might well find some or all of the same tasks foreshadowed somehow in their lives too. None of it means anything unless it eventually leads to the reality. If one of the three comes back and does the tasks themselves then they will be the moshiach.December 4, 2019 7:58 pm at 7:58 pm #1807630December 4, 2019 7:58 pm at 7:58 pm #1807635
What I am about to say is, most likely, going to be dismissed by many because I am about to quote someone who was a prominent Breslover Mashpia. For many, this alone may be reason to be dismissive. After the petira of the Lubavitcher Rebbe z”l, a good friend of mine, who was once a Lubavitcher, but became a Breslover, went to Rov Elozor Mordechai Kenig zt”l of Tsfat and expressed to him his bother with this idea. Rov Kenig said to my friend, “I have no problem with him being Moshiach, but let him come already.” I personally feel that Rav Kenig had hit the nail on the head. We all agree that Moshiach is coming and want him to come. Let’s focus on the goal and not engage in purposeless argument.
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