Does anyone have a source for this?

Home Forums Decaffeinated Coffee Does anyone have a source for this?

Viewing 31 posts - 1 through 31 (of 31 total)
  • Author
    Posts
  • #613597

    Leyzer
    Participant

    There is a well-known story that a certain Godol (which one exactly depends on the version of the story – I heard it was R Yisroel Salanter) once said

    If a Jew in Vilna does Averah X, then a Jew in Paris will do Averah Y

    i.e. that one’s own actions can have an effect, somehow, on someone else miles away.

    1. Can anyone corroborate whether this saying was actually said by any Godol?

    2. Does anyone know of a Mekor in Chazal for this concept?

    #1034120

    Sam2
    Participant

    2. I would guess there is no Makor in Chazal for this (aside from a bad interpretation of Aveirah Goreres Aveirah in Avos).

    3. It’s a seemingly major violation in Bechira Chofshis.

    #1034121

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    That wasn’t how he said it.

    He was saying that the non-frum take their cues from us about what we treat as really important, and then they do only that.

    So if a jew in vilna is mezalzel shabbos but still doesn’t do melacha, then the jew in paris does melacha.

    Nothing mystical.

    #1034122

    HaLeiVi
    Participant

    You can find this concept in the Noam Elimelech.

    Sam, many things can seemingly violate the biggest Ikker (in some people’s mind). How can Moshe Rabbeinu Bentch Yehoshua not to fall into the trap of the Meraglim? The Ohr Hschayim Hakadosh writes that although Yiras Shamayim is not on hands of heaven, out os in the hands of Tzaddikim.

    Why does physical influence not seem to contradict the free will rule and only a spiritual influence does?

    #1034123

    Randomex
    Member

    HaLeivi, please quote that Noam Elimelech, or at least post the location – I own one.

    A Google search brings up a good number of variations on this quote. As I expected, none are attributed to anyone other than R’ Yisrael.

    Lich’oira, influence moves a person’s nekudas habechirah. Thus, the effect of a certain influence might be that a person will not consider a particular choice, though he is still a free agent. Anyone?

    #1034124
    #1034125

    Sam2
    Participant

    HaLeiVi: I can’t answer that. The vast majority of the Achronim who ask the question on the Gemara about Bruriah do not give a similar answer to the Or HaChayim you mentioned. I would be willing to accept a S’vara similar to R’ Moshe’s on this (and that it increases the likelihood). I cannot accept that it is an absolute.

    What do you mean by physical influence?

    Randomex: Lichora the concept of Nekudas Habechirah is based on a Gemara in Kiddushin but a parallel Gemara in Moed Kattan seems to apply it in a way that does not quite fit with R’ Dessler.

    #1034126

    If I’m not mistaken, I think that quote (or something similar to that) was from the holy Chafetz Chaim.

    #1034127

    Randomex
    Member

    Sam2: That’s nice, but I’m not a boki in Moed Katan!

    LittleFroggie: I’ve found one attribution to the Chofetz Chaim with Google, and about ten for R’ Yisrael Salanter. (This time I included Chofetz Chaim in the search terms.)

    #1034128

    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    The Maharsha in Berachos (10a) asks how you can daven for someone to do teshuva if yiras shamayim is not biday shamayim. He grants that you can daven for yourself to do teshuva because that falls under ???? ???? ???? ???? ??????? ???? and ????? ???? ??????? ??. He concludes with “v’yesh l’yasheiv.” The Orchos Tzadikim writes in Sha’ar Hateshuva ????? ??? ??? ???? ??? ??????? ?? ?????? ????? ?? ???? ???? which would be consistent with the Maharsha, but in Sha’ar Hasimcha he writes ?????? ??????? ????? ??? ???? ?????? ?????? ?????? ??? ??? ?? ?? ????? ?????? ??????? ??? ??? ?????? ?? ??? ????? ?????? ???? ???? ???? ?????? ???? ?? ??? ?????? ????? ?? ????? so he clearly holds that you can (and in fact should) daven for others to do teshuva.

    #1034129

    catch yourself
    Participant

    ???? ??? ????? [???”?] ?? ????? ????? ?????? ???? ?????

    I think it’s obvious that the concept of ????? ????? is one that is far more complex than we can possibly understand, and it should not be too hard to make peace with one more question on the topic.

    The fact that we have heard such statements repeated by our own Rebbeim should be enough for us to recognize that they are well grounded in ??”?.

    In this particular case, I think it is the simple ??? in many statements of ??”?.

    ?? ??? ????? ????? ????? ??? ???

    ??”? ?? ????? ?? ????? ?? ???

    ????? ?? ????? ?? ??? ?? ????? ???

    These are some examples that come to mind offhand, and I am sure that there are many more and stronger sources.

    #1034130

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    This discussion is retarded.

    #1034131

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    He was saying that the non-frum take their cues from us about what we treat as really important, and then they do only that.

    So if a jew in vilna is mezalzel shabbos but still doesn’t do melacha, then the jew in paris does melacha.

    Nothing mystical.

    Sure, it’s mystical. It’s based on the yesod that what we do here influences the upper spheres, which then influences the lower spheres, which is why there is no geographical limitation.

    What you’re saying is true, but if was limited to that, the example would not have been Vilna/Paris.

    #1034132

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Lich’oira, influence moves a person’s nekudas habechirah. Thus, the effect of a certain influence might be that a person will not consider a particular choice, though he is still a free agent. Anyone?

    I would say it differently; it can make the same choice easier, but it’s still within the realm of bechirah chofshis.

    I think where R’ Dessler’s nekudas habechirah is not universally accepted is in his denial of bechirah in certain cases, but I don’t think anyone disagrees that some choices are more difficult than others, and that the level of difficulty changes.

    #1034133

    HaLeiVi
    Participant

    It is pretty clear from different places in Chazal that a person has point to point choices rather than gradual. We find that a person who became a Tzaddik could have been a Rasha of a certain type, not everywhere in between. There is a Medrash that HKBH shows a person certain spots in Gan Eden or Gehenom that could have been his.

    #1034134

    HaLeiVi
    Participant

    Sam, What I meant by physical is physical factors that affect a person’s choice. This is something we all agree to and deal with on a daily basis. Nobody thought to say that worrying about Chinuch violates the free will doctrine.

    Likewise, we have a concept of ????? ??? by eating ?????? ??????. We also find that a person’s ?????? ????? are from Hashem. This we see in Rashi about Pharaoh that Hashem held him back from Teshuvah. This is also the famous Vort of the Baal Shem Tov that the point of the Bas Kol ???? ???? ?????? is that the person’s Neshama hears it and from there he gets a ????? ?????.

    In general, a holy atmosphere causes holy thoughts and an Aveira is from a Ruach Shtus. Still, no one is forcing you to choose but they are affecting the surroundings.

    The Ramchal writes that since a Zivug is the same Neshama, even before they know each other the actions of one affect the other. (I saw this a long time ago so don’t ask me where it is.)

    #1034135

    Leyzer
    Participant

    Daas Yochid:

    He was saying that the non-frum take their cues from us about what we treat as really important, and then they do only that.

    Nothing mystical.

    My response:

    This is your own Peshat/obfuscation. It is quite clear he did not mean this at all – for if he had, why bother to mention the different cities? Just say: If an observant Jew in Vilna does Averah x, a less observant Jew in Vilna (i.e. who can see the other fellow and ‘take their cue from him’) does Averah Y.

    #1034136

    Sam2
    Participant

    Leyzer: Or maybe it’s because Vilna was a center of Frumkeit and Paris a center of the Haskalah.

    #1034137

    Randomex
    Member

    Sam2: I believe what Leyzer means is that mentioning Vilna and Paris implies non-direct/derech hateva influence.

    #1034138

    oomis
    Participant

    We say that Mitzvah goreres mitzvha and aveira goreres aveira. This is taking it to thinking outside the box. That the aveira that a Jew in one place does, has a ripple effect on another Jew somewhere else. I would not say it is outside the realm of possibility. We are all inter-connected.

    #1034139

    Sam2
    Participant

    So, just to be clear, we are over-Darshening inferences from an unsubstantiated statement possibly made by one great person or another to find the proper nuances in it?

    Just so I understand this endeavor.

    #1034140

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Sam, it’s a well known story, said over by enough learned people that it warrants understanding.

    #1034141

    Sam2
    Participant

    DY: I don’t think the Pratim of the city matter so much without firsthand documentation that those were the cities mentioned.

    Still, my Hesber of those cities is probably right anyway.

    #1034142

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Could be, but I’ve always heard the story in the context of the mystical concept I described, which is mevuar in Nefesh Hachaim and other places.

    #1034143

    Randomex
    Member

    Just for fun (although I think it turned out educational), I’ve collected just about every instance of this quotation (and a similar one) that I could find via Google. So many versions…

    In some cases, there were discussions of what it means and how this works. The CR’s own WolfishMusings had a blog post with a lengthy discussion on the subject in the comments… five years ago (no unique version, so not quoted). Here we go!

    Rav [Mordechai] Gifter Ztzl once said in a yeshiva shmus, if a bochur by us in yeshiva eats cholov akum, then a yid in Paris will eat treif.

    -Anonymous on Vosizneias

    Rav Mordechai Gifter ztzl, the late rosh yeshiva of Telz, once said, “if a bochur in yeshiva eats cholov akum then a yid in Paris will end up eating treif”.

    -Anonymous on Vosizneias

    [Those just might be the same anonymous guy.]

    Rav Gifter quotes (p. 80-81) [Collection of Rav Gifter’s letters -http://hebrewbooks.org/50397] the AB”D of Telz (I am assuming he means R’ Leizer Gordon here, unless it’s R’ Bloch?) as saying that if in Telz they don’t eat butter made of cholov aku”m, in Paris they will be careful and not eat pig meat, but if in Telz they are meikil on butter, in Paris they will eat tarfus. I have seen the same idea quoted in the name of R’ Yisrael Salanter[.]

    -“Chaim B.”, blog post on Divreichaim

    A yid in Paris is mechalel shabbos and that has an effect on Yidden around the world (I forget which godol quoted that).

    – “amama” on Vosizneias

    A gadol once said, if a Jew is makpid on xyz in Volozhin, a yid in Paris won’t intermarry.

    – “jerusalem-girl” on Imamother

    – “Emusing” on Matzav

    In Belz they used to say:

    “When a chossid in Belz begins to wear long pants (they have the custom to wear short pants and high socks), a Jew loses his religion in Paris”

    – “chabakuk elisha”

    followed by

    Yitz, I heard once that Rav Elchanan Wasserman (I think) told his students that if we talk lashon hara in Lithuania, Jews in Paris will be mechalel Shabbos.

    – “Moshe David Tokayer”

    followed by

    I heard a similar statement said in the name of Rav Israel Salanter (either way “they don’t say things like that about me”, to paraphrase a story about the Chofetz Chaim).

    – “Neil Harris”

    Conversation on a blog post on Asimplejew

    -“F.M.S.”, letter to Hamodia

    In the pithy words of Rav Yisroel Salanter, “If a bokhur battels in Eisheshok, some Jew in Paris will shmad.

    -blog post on Hamavdil/innate-differences

    Reb Yisroel Salanter would say that if we strengthen our observance of Shabbos in Lithuania, it will prevent a fellow Jew from desecrating the Shabbos in Paris.

    -blog post on Baishamussar

    Moreover, to quote […]
    -Rabbi Yoel Schonfeld, letter to Jewish Action

    [H][.]

    -Five Towns Jewish Times, regarding a speech by Rav Yitzchok Sheiner, rosh yeshiva of Kaminetz (Yerushalayim)

    A great rabbi, Rav Yisrael Salanter, once said that if a Jew in Lithuania is lax in his learning, a Jew in Paris will forsake his religion.

    -Leah Aharoni, Jewish Press guest op-ed

    As Rav Yisrael Salanter put it, if a Jew in Moscow talks during davening, a Jew in Paris will leave the fold.

    -Rabbi Moshe Grylak, Mishpacha column

    If a Jew in Kovno speaks lashon hara in the Bet Midrash, a Jew in Paris will desecrate Shabbat.

    -Rabbi Hanoch Teller, lecture on Naaleh(.com)

    If someone talks lashon hara in the beis hamidrash in Kovna, Jews will desecrate the Shabbos in Paris.

    -Lipa Goldwerth, Jewish Observer article

    When they gossip in Vilna, they desecrate Shabbos in Paris. – Rav Yisrael Salanter

    -Micha Berger, post on Aspaqlaria (a section of aishdas.org)

    [T]
    -Rabbi Jonathan Tawil, Torah Action Life parsha sheet

    Rabbi Yisroel Salanter, the great founder of the Mussar movement once asserted that “when a Jew learns Mussar in Lithuania, he prevents the assimilation of another Jew in Paris.”

    -Rabbi Raphael Wizman, NCYI Weekly Divrei Torah

    The Chofetz Chaim declared that if Shabbos was kept properly in Warsaw, it would have a ripple effect on a Jew in Paris.

    -M. Efrati, article on Dei’ah V’Dibbur/chareidi.org

    Well, I hope you’re all

    “Azoy gliklich (or glikor) vi a yid in Paris,”

    as the expression used to go.

    P.S. Would you believe there are NO Google results for “yidden of Vilna” or “yidden of Volozhin”?

    #1034144

    Randomex
    Member

    No response? Really? Didn’t anyone find our national game of broken telephone amusing enough to say something?

    #1034145

    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    “The Maharsha in Berachos (10a) asks how you can daven for someone to do teshuva if yiras shamayim is not biday shamayim. He grants that you can daven for yourself to do teshuva because that falls under ???? ???? ???? ???? ??????? ???? and ????? ???? ??????? ??. He concludes with “v’yesh l’yasheiv.” The Orchos Tzadikim writes in Sha’ar Hateshuva ????? ??? ??? ???? ??? ??????? ?? ?????? ????? ?? ???? ???? which would be consistent with the Maharsha, but in Sha’ar Hasimcha he writes ?????? ??????? ????? ??? ???? ?????? ?????? ?????? ??? ??? ?? ?? ????? ?????? ??????? ??? ??? ?????? ?? ??? ????? ?????? ???? ???? ???? ?????? ???? ?? ??? ?????? ????? ?? ????? so he clearly holds that you can (and in fact should) daven for others to do teshuva.”

    While I was saying Avinu Malkeinu on Rosh Hashanah, it occurred to me that the lashon of ??????? ?????? ???? ????? is consistent with the Orchos Tzadikim and not the Maharsha. Then it occurred to me that I don’t need to use Avinu Malkeinu to show this since the same lashon is used in the everyday shemoneh esrei. Then it occurred to me that this doesn’t necessarily show anything because all the prayers in Avinu Malkeinu and shemoneh esrei b’lashon rabim. Then it occurred to me that I should not be thinking about something I wrote on Yeshiva World a month ago, in the middle of davening on Rosh Hashanah. But I kept thinking about it anyway.

    #1034146

    Randomex
    Member

    I thought “v’yesh l’yasheiv” meant “and an answer can be given(:)”. How can you conclude with that phrase?

    #1034147

    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    If you have an answer but you don’t want to say it for whatever reason (e.g. it’s super dochek).

    #1034148

    Toi
    Participant

    r yisroel salanter brings it from a sipurno on the passuk of vayishmun yeshurun vayibat. ayin shum in the sipurno.

    #1034149

    lebidik yankel
    Participant

    The Ramchal writes in Mesilas Yesharim that when a person sins he drags down the spiritual level of the entire world. (perek 1)

Viewing 31 posts - 1 through 31 (of 31 total)
  • You must be logged in to reply to this topic.


Trending