November 17, 2017 11:00 am at 11:00 am #1405238slominerParticipant
When people, in a generic way, refer to Chasidim are they referring to both Satmar-types and Lubavitch? By Satmar-types I’m also referring to Ger, Bobov, Sanz, Munkatch, Belz, and others you frequently encounter in Bnei Brak, Williamsburg and Borough Park.
I’m wondering since almost all the non-Lubavitch type of Chasidim dress (levush and peyos) and talk (Yiddish) in an ostensibly Jewish way that makes them stand out as Chasidish even when viewed from afar. Whereas Lubavitchers are, in this regard, more like Yeshivish Jews who could somewhat more easily be mistaken for businessmen. The Chasidish non-Lubavitch women also stand out as immediately identifiable as Jews moreso than Lubavitch or Yeshivish women.
Somehow when I hear people talking about “Chasidim”, the stereotypical thought that immediately comes to mind is the Williamsburg types.November 17, 2017 11:38 am at 11:38 am #1405257
Lubavichers refer to themselves as Chassidim.November 17, 2017 11:50 am at 11:50 am #1405260Neville ChaimBerlinParticipant
From experience, when Lubavitchers say “Chasidim,” they’re mainly talking about Chabad or, at the very least, including themselves in the greater Chassidishe world.
Most people probably aren’t talking about Lubavitchers when they say chassidim. Lubavitcher’s use pronunciation like Litvaks, they hold by the Gra’s times, they don’t dress like other Chassidim, they don’t seem to get married as early at other Chassidim, etc.November 17, 2017 11:50 am at 11:50 am #1405261
In general when people use Chassidish, they dont seem to refer to Chabad, Chabad seems to get its own niche
I dont think Brezlov counts eitherNovember 17, 2017 12:50 pm at 12:50 pm #1405269funnyboneParticipant
I guess it depends on context. I had a chassidish pkumber who barely spoke english would be satmar etc.
I daven with a minyan where people focus on avodas Hashem al pi the Besht would include chabad.November 17, 2017 1:59 pm at 1:59 pm #1405284dafbiyunParticipant
As a practical matter I believe the litvish oilom do not intend to include chabad when they refer to chasidim. The reason is that nowadays misnagdim and chasidim ( i.e. satmar, Ger, Skvere, Belz , etc.) have a very similar approach to yiddishkite which transcends any differences in dress or women driving cars.
Countless non –Chasidim daven in chassidish shtbuls (e.g. satmar minyan in Lakewood) and learn pretty much the same derech and learningthe same rishonim and achronim.(much of the Mesifta gemoras were written by hundreds of chassidishe yinglite in Eretz Yisroel).
.Lubavich , on the other hand. has deliberately chosen to remain different. Without judging,and recognizing the wonderful work they have done, it is beyond dispute that their yeshivos have an entirely different curriculum and agenda than other frum yeshivas .They never accepted daf yomi and for the most part, do not learn sugyas the way the rest of the frum word does. Nor do they participate in events coordinated by litvish and chassidish leaders.
I try do my part to close this chasm by learning 4x a week with a Lubacicher who is always imprressed when hearing a nice pshat in a sUgya from e.g. the Brisker Rov, or R’ Borech Ber .November 17, 2017 3:18 pm at 3:18 pm #1405304akupermaParticipant
Satmar and Lubavitch are both hasidic, along with a good many others. This is rather obvious based on nusach, sefarim they learn, attitudes towards kabblah, respect for the Baal Shem Tov, halachic interpretations, etc.November 17, 2017 3:18 pm at 3:18 pm #1405306Neville ChaimBerlinParticipant
ZD: Breslevers like Rabbi Yaavok Meir Schechter would count as Chassidim along with any old-school Breslevers that speak Yiddish etc. I assume what you’re referring to are the neo-Chassidish Breslevers like Na Nachs and the Chassidishly-influenced, in which case I agree. I think we’re on the same page, I just wanted to clarify that.
The difference is that Chabad has both Neo-Chassidim (who are definitely not real Chassidim) and old school Lubavitchers who are still completely different from the rest of Chassidim.November 17, 2017 4:49 pm at 4:49 pm #1405320
NCB: The Geszhe Lubavitchers (old timer families originally from the alte heim) speak Yiddish at home and in Yeshiva, wear different levush and eliminate most of the secular curriculum in school.November 18, 2017 7:18 pm at 7:18 pm #1405368
First of all we are chassiddim don’t don’t ever call us not chassiddim. We speak Yiddish in some of our schools but learn in Yiddish in all our schools and s few differences between us and litvish is that we all have beards and long ones and our hat is very similar to litvish. The “pinch” in our hat is very noticeable. And you can tell a Lubavitcher a mile a way weather male of female. And 2 the boys are not allowed to learn any English on Yeshiva / cheider while ny other chassidim they learn till 6th grade.November 18, 2017 8:09 pm at 8:09 pm #1405399Yechi HamelechParticipant
As a Lubavitcher, i can’t help but smile as I read your comments, discussing whether Chabad is Chasidish or not. Everyone knows (or at least educated people know) that “chasidim” refers to people whose ancestors goes back to the time of the Baal Shem Tov, the founder of chasidus. highly chasidish cities in Russia include Nevel, Volozhin, Haditch, Berditchev, Lubavitch, Liadi, and much more. Lubavitch is by all means chasidish. In regards to levush, there is a separate story for that. The previous Lubavitcher Rebbes all wore streimels.November 18, 2017 8:10 pm at 8:10 pm #1405400
Sorry I didn’t mean to write “don’t” twice and the “s” on second line is a typo and the a got left out of any on the last lineNovember 18, 2017 10:24 pm at 10:24 pm #1405433mdd1Participant
Volozhin was Chassidish? Really?November 18, 2017 10:25 pm at 10:25 pm #1405440oyyoyyoyParticipant
Chochom, the question wasn’t whether they are or arent chassidim. The question is, when people (non chabad) are talking and say the word “chassidim”, are they generally including chabad in the comment? Like, “Boro park is mostly chassidish nowadays”. He isn’t including chabad, even though, yes, chabad are also chassidim.November 18, 2017 10:27 pm at 10:27 pm #1405442GadolhadorahParticipant
I don’t think anyone considers the new age Breslovers as real chassidim. The litvishe Chassidus seem to be distancing themselves from Chabadniks in both their lvush and hashkafahl as well as their politics. For Lubavitch, the more years that go by with no “rebbe”, the less it has in common with the Litvish chassidus where the centrality of the current rebbe;’s personality is a key component of their hashkafah and minhagim.November 19, 2017 12:41 am at 12:41 am #1405489
What’s gimmel Tammuz? What’s yud tes Kislev?November 19, 2017 4:17 am at 4:17 am #1405502a maminParticipant
My the coffee room has become sooooo narrow minded lately???November 19, 2017 4:20 am at 4:20 am #1405509Sechel HaYasharParticipant
In popular expression, no it doesn’t. Should it? One hundred percent! What are Chassidim if not for Chassidus? It’s deeper than Levush and Yiddish (to be sure, many, many Lubavitchers speak Yiddish at home) it’s a hashkafa, a worldview. FYI, in Chabad Yeshivas most if the day is spent learning Gemara biyun, in a very similar style to the Litvishe Yeshivas. And also, plenty of Lubavitchers learn Daf Yomi.
Ps, Lubavitchers commenting here (girls I’m assuming) you need to realize most of the world doesn’t understand our lingo, “hiskashrus”, or our special days “yud test Kislev” etc.
Also, to the commenter who said Chabad relys on the Gras zmanim, our shita is the Shulchan Aruch Harav ,which the Magid of Mezritch instructed to be compiled for all Chassidim, happens to be the Gra paskened the same way.November 19, 2017 8:04 am at 8:04 am #1405539
What’s gimmel Tammuz? What’s yud tes Kislev?
I think one of these days , is the day the Alter Rebbe (The first Lubavich Rebbe) was released from Prison
And I think the other one was when the Fredericher Rebbe was released from prisonNovember 19, 2017 8:05 am at 8:05 am #1405537akupermaParticipant
One can’t define “Chasidic” based on language or fashion in clothes. While one can choose to dress like other hasidim, that is constantly changing, as are all fashions. Chasidim are more likely to speak Yiddish than other Jews, but it is a correlation not a hard and fast rule.
For Ashkenazim, using Nusach Sfard (a.k.a. Nusach Ari’zel) is a good indication, but many people daven their family’s nusach, so all this may indicate that an ancestor was chasidic, or not. Regarding kabalah as something important that should affect daily life is a good sign, except that unless a Chasid is a Ben Torah he won’t know the sources of his minhagim, and non-hasidim also have many minhagim based on kaballah only they don’t emphasize it. Favorably regarding the Baal Shem Tov (and other early Hasidim) is a strong indicator, since the yeshiva world traditionally had a negative view of them. Regarding a “Rebbe” as the Gadol ha-Dor is a big factor, but some such as the Satmar Rebbe were leaders of a broader community that including Misnagdim who shared his political views. Having a “rebbe” is very hasidic, but many yeshivish people treat their Rosh Yeshiva in the same way.
And one could argue that the difference between Hasidic and non-Hasidic is largely historical, and in the future the major “line” within the frum community will be based on zionist/non-zionist or perhaps American/Israeli, and that Hasidic/Misnagdid distinctions are really a relic from the 19th century.November 19, 2017 8:08 am at 8:08 am #1405534
This whole question is flawed.
WHY ON EARTH WOULD YOU THINK THAT LUBAVITCH IS NOT A CHASSIDUS???
A chassidus is defined as a group of followers of the Besh”t’s derech, who follow and are attached to a Rebbe.
Now, being followers of the Besh”t, that is not even a debate. And followers of a Rebbe? There is no chassidus that follows their rebbes more than Chabad!!
Levush and language, and living all in one NJ village or living in towns and cities all over the world? That’s just ‘by the way’ things. Satmar have their levush, (two types actually) because that’s what their rebbes have taught them. Vizhnitz and Belz build their own chadorim, because that’s what their rebbes want. Ger don’t, and send their children to other chasidus’s chadorim, because that’s what their rebbes taught.
Going back to Neville ChaimBerlin, “Lubavitcher’s use pronunciation like Litvaks, they hold by the Gra’s times, they don’t dress like other Chassidim, they don’t seem to get married as early at other Chassidim, etc.“. They actually pronounce like Russians, as that’s where the chassidus comes from. The Gra’s times happen to be the same as the Alte Rebbe’s. They don’t dress like other chassidim? Well, Ger don’t wear streimels and Belz wear black socks on Shabbos. No one besides Skver wear boots and amshinov klaps hoshanos on shmini atzeres night (or close to it). That doesn’t make them not chassidim. They don’t get married as early as other chassidim because they follow their Rebbes instructions.
What people forget, is that Chabad doesn’t only mean going to live in the back of beyond and giving kosher food to Israeli backpackers. Chabad Torah and machshavah is very deep and profound and the greatest talmidei chachomim learn these works.November 19, 2017 8:18 am at 8:18 am #1405545
And one could argue that the difference between Hasidic and non-Hasidic is largely historical, and in the future the major “line” within the frum community will be based on zionist/non-zionist or perhaps American/Israeli, and that Hasidic/Misnagdid distinctions are really a relic from the 19th century.
You already see the Yeshivish and Chassidish (Not Lubavich) getting more and more together . You saw at the Asifa Rav Matisyau Salomon working together with the Skulener RebbeNovember 19, 2017 8:51 am at 8:51 am #1405559
The four Chasiduses started by the Talmidei HaMaggid were Lubavitch, Stolin, Berditchiv and Cherenobyl.November 19, 2017 9:19 am at 9:19 am #1405566
woah Geordie – I don’t know why I was surprised to see that post coming from you.
As the question was about whether or not a person refers to a lubavitcher when they say chassidim, I wpuld say absolutely not. I live in an area with a strong lubavitch presence and based on their dress, lack of familiarity with gedolei hador, segregation from Jews and Jewish activities, and seclusion from the general kehilla among other things, it never in a million years would have occurred to me that they were chassidim. Not only that, but I find it shocking that they would consider that offensive. Why do you care what my perception is? Especially when you live on my block with 8 other frum families and don’t let your children play with any of our kids? The whole premise makes no sense. If you are concerned that people you don’t speak to should know more about you there is probably a really simple solution to that!November 19, 2017 11:09 am at 11:09 am #1405695
As I said before but my comment didn’t go thru. Is that if not for yud tes kisleiv there will be no chassidis. No satmar no bobbov no belz and no chabad. The gezeira was against chassidis that’s why the alter rebbe was in jail cuz the world want ready for chassidis yet. And gimmel Tammuz is when the rebbe left us . When u said gimmel Tammuz the friendlier rebbe was released from jail your almost right the date is yud Beis yud gimmel Tammuz.November 19, 2017 11:17 am at 11:17 am #1405694
As a Lubavitcher, I agree with syag, although we are chasiddim I usually do not think when people say chadimdim they mean Lubavitchers.November 19, 2017 11:21 am at 11:21 am #1405699
And how we priunounce words in Yiddish/Hebrew it depends on what the word is some words we pronounce like the litvaks and some words we pronounce like the chassidishe worldNovember 19, 2017 11:42 am at 11:42 am #1405723
Yahrtzeit of the rebbe, I thinkNovember 19, 2017 12:01 pm at 12:01 pm #1405735
And gimmel Tammuz is when the rebbe left us .
Left us? He went on vacation? Why can’t you just say it normally – the day he passed away, his yahrtzeit.
And why don’t you say the Rebbe “zt”l”??November 19, 2017 12:19 pm at 12:19 pm #1405744
The Alter Rebbe was sent to Jail because he opposed Napoleon. During the Napoleonic wars Napoleon spread the ideas of the French Revolution . He basically empancipated the Jews. The Alter Rebbe opposed the Emancipation of the Jews. The Alter Rebbe supported the Ancien Regimes of the European Autocrats epecially the CzarNovember 19, 2017 12:44 pm at 12:44 pm #1405751
For those unaware of the definition of the term Joseph used, Geszhe, let me define.
Geszhe is a caste system used in shidduchim through which Lubavitchers demonstrate in action what they really feel about all those baalei teshuva of whom they claim to be so proud.November 19, 2017 1:31 pm at 1:31 pm #1405757
“Left us? He went on vacation? Why can’t you just say it normally – the day he passed away, his yahrtzeit.
And why don’t you say the Rebbe “zt”l”??”
I am very much hoping you get a response instead of a “YWN hates Chabad” deflection.November 19, 2017 1:31 pm at 1:31 pm #1405765
Sorry, that is a very cynical and untrue.
FYI I am not geshza.November 19, 2017 1:45 pm at 1:45 pm #1405780
Gezh means by some ppl that u r chabad on both sides all the way back. And other people define it as your grandfathers and great grandfathers learned in Neville.November 19, 2017 1:45 pm at 1:45 pm #1405779
Listen this is not only our rebbe but all other rabbeim chabad and not chabad and moshe rabbeinu and Any other tzaddik. The Tanya qoutes the Zohar saying that when a tzaddik leaves this world he is even more in this world then when he was alive צדיק מלא עולם he fills the world. Again this is not only chabad but all other tzaddikim as well . When a tzaddik does he is even more alive then before.November 19, 2017 1:59 pm at 1:59 pm #1405784
I’ve not heard “left us” used for anyone else, and have seen zt”l used for others.November 19, 2017 2:38 pm at 2:38 pm #1405790
The very fact that such a classification has a name tells you that they are not as welcoming and accepting as they want you to think. I am nor aware of any other group of chassidim or litvaks for that matter, that have first and second class so clearly defined that there is a name for it.
I’ve heard stories from multi generational Lubavitchers, and how they are treated as second class in shidduchim, because they haven’t earned Gesze status. The message is clearly, put on our tefillin, drink our lechaims. send us your checks. But don’t dare think about marrying my child.November 19, 2017 2:38 pm at 2:38 pm #1405792
I’ve heard left us used for many tzaddikim but never heard a reluctance to use zt’l.November 19, 2017 2:39 pm at 2:39 pm #1405795Sechel HaYasharParticipant
To “770 Chabad”,
Please stop writing these things if you can’t properly explain them. The lashon “צדיק מלא עולם” isn’t mentioned in Tanya, or anywhere else for that matter. I know you want to stick up for Chabad, but you’re doing more harm than good.November 19, 2017 6:03 pm at 6:03 pm #1405839
So you heard some shmutz from a few people who unfortunately where hurt,. there are plenty of “geshza” who do not marry geshza, and in every community there are families who feel they can only marry other special families sometimes right sometimes not, and many times it’s a religious consideration, they want there child to have a very chasidisha home, I do not see anything wrong with wanting the best for your child.November 19, 2017 6:06 pm at 6:06 pm #1405847
Not sure why you think I wouldn’t post that. I went to a Lubavitch primary school in South Africa in the 80s. But about your point about your neighbours, I wouldn’t know the specifics, but all sorts of people have rules about whom their children play with.
Another point, here in Manchester, many Lubavitchers mix with the general Litvishe/Chassidishe crowd. Most Ashkenaz & Sfard shuls have a few Tehillas Hashem siddurim available because Lubavitchers come to daven often enough. Chabad kids come on Pirchim chol hamoed outings, as well as non-Chabad kids go to Gan Yisroel camps. By no means all, but it’s not total separation.
One of the most popular public speakers here is a Lubavitcher Rov, and the Lubavitch Rabonim and mashpi’im speak in other shuls.November 19, 2017 6:24 pm at 6:24 pm #1405863
Everyone is entitled to have standards. But for the organization that prides itself on accepting everyone to have a clearly defined and labeled class system, which there definitely is as you pretty much admitted, whether it is observed 100% or not, that smells to me of hypocrisy.November 19, 2017 7:59 pm at 7:59 pm #1405940GadolhadorahParticipant
Even the most ardent misnaged will acknowledge that the work of the Chabad shalichim has brought more yidden back to torah-true yiddeshkeit than any other segment of the tzibur. Chabad shalichim are non-judgmental and see every yiddeshe neshama as worthy of their time, attention and energy. For most frei yidden, they have no knowledge of any of the dozen or so chassidus represented in the United States, much less the litivsh communities other than Chabad. You can have legitimate disagreements with the shita of the rebbe on some issues or aspects of their hashkafah but don’t ever suggest that Chabad isn’t unique and constitutes the spearhead of Hashem’s army.November 19, 2017 11:19 pm at 11:19 pm #1406011
It has nothing to do with accepting someone, you can accpect someone and still know he is not for your son/daughter.
And talk with anybody in any community will tell you, they have similar issues when it comes to shiduchimNovember 20, 2017 3:12 am at 3:12 am #1406046litvisherchossidParticipant
From someone who knows the system very well, “outoftowner” is right. Unfortunately the gezhe does show how much they adore the baalei teshuva that they haul in. Up to a point that it. Just make sure you stay far away from our kids when it comes to marriage. No matter how frum you became.November 20, 2017 7:02 am at 7:02 am #1406047litvisherchossidParticipant
Gadolhadorah- you obviously are not knowledgeable enough in the matter. Shlichus became a celebrity status. Its a great benefit to show compassion and an open ear to a vulnerable non frum person, and then receive a 2 million dollar donation from them to build yourself a huge shul/building and get your name out there.
On another note, reviewing the other knowledgeable comments here, it is quite interesting how everyone gets along with each other, but chabad keep to themselves, not even letting their kids play with the non chabad kids on the block when they live amongst other Yidden.(Litvishe)
And then they complain about how the whole world “hates” them and criticizes them. Id like to know what kind of he**storm would be raised if a Young Israel would try to open up in crown heights. Ya, but its always ok for chabad houses to open up in the most litvish of areas. Ya, even in Lakewood.
Yet its everyone else who “hates” chabad, not the other way around.
Sometimes I almost go as far as getting upset when I hear and see how much respect people give to chabad, and I think in my heart if only they knew how much Lubavitchers look down upon them.
I know the deal firsthand. Its a real shame.
And it hurts me to write this but I cannot take these coverups.November 20, 2017 10:26 am at 10:26 am #1406180mdd1Participant
I am not a Lubavitcher and I don’t know the system from inside, but as far as shidduchim go, those people are, probably, just strict about yichus. Look in the last perek of Kiddushin. Even Rabbi Yochanan had to deal with it.November 20, 2017 11:26 am at 11:26 am #1406230
A More modern community did open up in Crown Heights, it was an extension from park Slope. That community built and Eruv and there was an unfortuante clashNovember 20, 2017 11:26 am at 11:26 am #1406204WinnieThePoohParticipant
For those of you educating the rest of us about chasidus- can you define the following terms used in various posts above (unless they are typos- but then again until now I didn’t know Gesze was a word)
post #1405695: “the friendlier rebbe” – was there really such a Rebbe?
post #1405694: “chadimdim”
post #1405442″ “litvishe Chassidus” (isn’t that an oxymoron?)November 20, 2017 11:27 am at 11:27 am #1406240
Why do we need to accentuate differences between groups of Yiedden?! All the criticisms mentioned here about Chabad Lubavitch also apply in some way or form to another group in Frum Yiddishkeit.
Let’s have a thread to show how much Hashem’s children love each other instead!!
To answer the OP, I’ll say, “Well, yes and no, depends on the context.” Other than that I’m out of this machlokes discussion.
- The topic ‘Does “Chasidish” refer to both Satmar and Lubavitch?’ is closed to new replies.