November 7, 2023 4:58 pm at 4:58 pm #2237067torahlifeParticipant
To my mind, voting for a democrat, even if he is an excellent frum yid, is wrong. Granted there can be big benefits, like tuition relief,but my heart tells me that it’s also a chilil Hashem. Everyone sees yiddem voting in block for their needs even when it overrides their firmly held principles. It also weakens our own deeply held beliefs, and it’s a ruined opportunity for real kidush Hashem.
What can be an honest answer to these concerns without name calling? I struggle to see how Hashem would approve of voting for a Democrat.November 8, 2023 1:34 pm at 1:34 pm #2237841yechiellParticipant
so now Hashem wants you to vote republican?? these blogs are going from ridiculous to sublimeNovember 8, 2023 1:37 pm at 1:37 pm #2237972
“Does Hashem approve of voting for a democrat”
Certainly, 10X more so than voting for a lying, racist, repeat-adulterer who energizes anti-semitism.November 8, 2023 2:56 pm at 2:56 pm #2238021ujmParticipant
The OP is repeating what HaGaon HaRav Avigdor Miller zt’l said about this.November 8, 2023 7:49 pm at 7:49 pm #2238056ezra101Participant
@gadolhadorah tell me again where the upswing of rabid anti Semitism is stemming from? it most certainly is not coming from the republicans you don’t see them wacking Jews over with a megaphone until they die or ripping down signs of kidnapped victims ? where do you think this energized anti Semitism is stemming from?November 8, 2023 7:50 pm at 7:50 pm #2238066MarxistParticipant
So maybe you can explain why the Lakewood Roshei Yeshiva said to vote for him?November 8, 2023 7:53 pm at 7:53 pm #2238083jackkParticipant
This whole discussion has been repeated in the CR multiple times.
The election of Avi Schnall opened my eyes to the fact that some people who have been claiming that they vote republicans because it is daas torah, when they are actually confronted with daas torah to vote for Avi Schnall as a Democrat , find themselves questioning Daas Torah.November 8, 2023 7:54 pm at 7:54 pm #2238065
“The OP is repeating what HaGaon HaRav Avigdor Miller zt’l said about this…
Well, not exactly……the quote below provides a bit more context…Fortunately, the Rav explicitly contemplated the likelihood that some would disagree with his political perspective and on that point, he was 100% correct.
“..There’s no question that the conservatives of today [circa 1976] are extremely more liberal than the liberals of thirty years ago. We have already advanced so far beyond the borders of liberalism, that today we can afford to retreat many miles behind these boundries and still remain in the forefront of liberalism. And therefore, today there’s no such thing as too much conservatism. You have to vote for conservative candidates on every level – on national, state and city levels……That’s my opinion. By the way, nobody here has to agree with me – on anything. Only, I don’t have to agree with you either…”
Source: TAPE # 133 (July 1976)November 8, 2023 7:55 pm at 7:55 pm #2238084akupermaParticipant
1. Quotes from dead rabbanim are irrelevant since political parties change over time. In the last century the core principle of the Democrats was white supremacy. Both parties have gone through phases of being isolationists or interventionists. Quoting a rav about which party to favor would be like quoting a rav on whether to wear a raincoat (without including information such as the weather when he made the quote).
2. In 2023, the Democrats include an openly anti-Semitic wing and they may be able to exercise of veto over the party. The Republicans contain an isolationist wing which while not anti-Semitic, and sympathetic to Zionism, would render the United States incapable of giving Israel meaningful assistance if (as appears to be happening) the fighting shifts from disorganized terrorists, to regular armed forces supported by Russia, China and Iran.
3. We should be asking for the Democrats to treat their WOKE wing the way the Republicans have dealt in the recent past when white supremacists managed to get he Republican nomination (e.g. David Duke, they said to abstain or vote Democrat). One would like to see Democrats refusing to support WOKE candidates who endorse mass murder of Jews.
4. But the Republicans’ price for aiding Israel is to throw Ukraine under the bus, leading to a major victory for the Sino-Russian alliance. Another Republican is deliberately trying to block all promotions for a reason unrelated to national security. What Israel needs now is a strong United States military, which the Republicans are just as unenthused about as the Democrats.November 8, 2023 7:56 pm at 7:56 pm #2238086DaMosheParticipant
I try to judge politicians on their own merits, and their own views. Unfortunately, nowadays, most politicians can’t think for themselves. They just blindly follow the party line, especially at the Federal level.
So when it comes to elections, I’ll actually look at the history – does the candidate always vote together with the party, or are there times that they disagree? It plays a role in my votes. If both sides always follow the party line, I’ll vote Republican.
In the case that the OP is clearly referring to, Avi Schnall, I highly doubt that he will always be voting together with the Democratic Party stance. If something comes up on abortion, or same-sex marriage, I’m sure he will vote according to Torah values. To me, that is more important than the “Democrat” tag that he ran under.November 9, 2023 1:41 pm at 1:41 pm #2238103
The rabid antisemitism today is the outcome of normalizing hate speech across the spectrum, from BLM to the Proud Boys, from Talib to Kanye West etc., from woke University presidents who are willing to tolerate hate speech in the name of academic freedom, to right-wing social media sites that have become a cesspool of white-power and Christian nationalism and the worse kinds of anti-semitic vile.November 9, 2023 1:41 pm at 1:41 pm #2238106Always_Ask_QuestionsParticipant
akuperna, your dismissal of “dead rabbonim” seems insufficently supported: as you yourself show, Dems positions are relatively the same as they were in the 70s, just way further down the slope. Those crazy students of the 70s are now party elders. Also, quoting international positions seem not relevant to local elections in the garden state.
So, it seems that Lakewood Rabbonim disagree w/ R Miller ZTzvKL, in this case at least. Maybe the gashmiyus that is required to support ruchniyus in their community is seen as more important that society-wide considerations that R Miller often advocated. Who knows, if R Miller were in charge of thousands of families requiring state assitance, maybe he would also have disregarded higher considerations.
Practically speaking, if Dems will have a slim majority, and a group of conservative Dems band together, they can lead the party to a more balanced place.November 9, 2023 1:41 pm at 1:41 pm #2238128commonsaychelParticipant
there are no navim, so this whole thread is irrelevant.November 9, 2023 1:41 pm at 1:41 pm #2238132SACT5Participant
DaMoshe I agree 100%
“Unfortunately, nowadays, most politicians can’t think for themselves. They just blindly follow the party line, especially at the Federal level.”
Feels the same way with many voters who blindly vote party without learning anything about the candidates.
Politics has become a team sport in America, and sadly people would prefer that their team win even if it means that their country will lose.
Democratic politicians from Texas and Republicans from Massachusetts likely end up with similar voting patterns. Party affiliation means little, please do your homework before voting.November 9, 2023 1:41 pm at 1:41 pm #2238145SQUARE_ROOTParticipant
“In January, Pew reported that liberal Democrats side with the Palestinians over Israel by a margin of nearly two to one. Conservative Republicans support Israel over the Palestinians by a margin of more than 16 to 1.”
SOURCE: Heeding Dem Warnings by Caroline B. Glick, 2018 May 25
www dot JewishWorldReview dot com
Keith Ellison, an anti-Israel Muslim, became Deputy Chair of the Democratic National Committee (DNC) by a UNANIMOUS VOICE VOTE of DNC members, according to Wikipedia.
“…leading members of the Democratic Party like Keith Ellison and luminaries like Linda Sarsour openly espouse anti-Jewish sentiments and propagate anti-Semitic conspiracy theories, Democrats ignore, whitewash, deny and minimize the significance of the swelling chorus of anti-Semitism within their ranks.”
SOURCE: The peril of Politicized Anti-Semitism
by Caroline B. Glick 2018 June 22
“Rising stars in the Democratic Party, including Rep. Ellison and Women’s March leaders Tamika Mallory and Linda Sarsour along with the Congressional Black Caucus embrace Louis Farrakhan, and defend his notorious, virulent hatred of Jews.
They demonize Israel and its Jewish supporters.”
SOURCE: The peril of Politicized Anti-Semitism
by Caroline B. Glick, 2018 June 22
Mark Steyn said:
“It is embarrassing that this nut [Nation of Islam leader Louis Farrakhan]
is a power broker in the Democrat Party, and the media won’t cover it.”
SOURCE: Why don’t the media care about Democrats’ ties to Farrakhan?
a youtube video by Fox News, 2018 March 8
Sarah Stern (founder and president of
Endowment for Middle East Truth) said:
“It is profoundly troubling that there is a recent trend within much of the Democratic Party to tolerate and sweep under the rug voices of extreme anti-Semitism and hatred, and by their sheer presence in highly visible social events bestowing upon them an aura of respectability.”
She continued: “How would these same people react if David Duke were to be photographed seated in the same row as President Donald Trump? Louis Farrakhan is the apotheosis of pure, unabashed anti-Semitism. His speeches use combinations of classical anti-Semitic canards, and bold-faced lies and deceptions.”
SOURCE: Criticism over Farrakhan Singing the Praises of Aretha Franklin
by Jackson Richman, 2018 September 4, from JNS dot org
“Writer David Steinberg identified 105 news stories written in the immediate aftermath of [Ilhan] Omar’s victory [as one of the first two Muslim women elected to Congress], and not a single one mentioned that she believed Jewry possessed mind-control abilities or that Israel was evil.
No one called on the Democratic Party to distance itself from this rhetoric.”
SOURCE: Here’s the anti-Semitism the Media Doesn’t Want to Mention
by David Harsanyi, 2018/11/11, www dot NYPost dot comNovember 9, 2023 1:41 pm at 1:41 pm #2238148
Avi Schnall is no different than any other frum elected official who has been endorsed by rabbonim, as in, daas Torah. That includes Kalman Yeger, Simcha Eichenstein, Simcha Felder, and many others. Avi Schnall’s endorsement would not cause people to question daas torah, because daas torah never stated that all frum politicians must be Republicans, only that when voting for non frum or non jewish candidates, one should typically vote Republican. Rav miller didn’t say that there are never situations where one can’t vote Republican, just this is the typical correct decision because Republicans tend to be closer to(or rather, less distant from) Torah values.November 9, 2023 1:41 pm at 1:41 pm #2238149
“lying, racist, repeat-adulterer”
I see nothing on this list which contravenes a non jewish man’s halachik obligations.
Trump did a lot for the Jewish people. He freed rubashkin and pollard, he made Jewish-ness into a protected class under title 9, (which was nationalistic, but he can’t be expected to know that) he made the most pro Israel moves of any president in the modern era, including the Abraham Accords, without making Israel give up anything (like in Oslo or camp David).
to be fair to him, the criticism might be that he didn’t do enough to distance himself from antisemites, but this is more because he doesn’t want to sacrifice any of his votes, not because he is sympathetic to them – trump was a big donor to Jewish causes before entering politics. I don’t see any logic in the conclusion that he is himself Antisemitic or that he intentionally fans the flames of jew hatredNovember 9, 2023 1:41 pm at 1:41 pm #2238175CTLAWYERParticipant
I have repeatedly explained that there is no consistent platform/ideology for National US political parties.
There are no card carrying members, no dues paying members.
All politics is local, and most voters cast their ballots based on how the race affects them directly, not national or international policy.
I have been an enrolled D for more than 50 years, a member of my Democratic Town Committee, delegate to State and National convention.
I have never voted a straight party ticket, I choose who I consider the best candidate in each race.
That said, extremists in any party would not do well here in CT. I am happy that a certain member of Congress was censured this week.
In our local race this week I could in no way vote for the R candidate who wanted to lead our town. A warm and friendly man, who attended Mrs. CTL’s funeral and made a shiva call, he believes that discrimination does not exist and women should not have equal rights.
I saw him at the polls (I am Asst. Registrar of Voters) and as his party chair cringed at our friendly greeting and conversation he announced: we were friends yesterday and will be friends tomorrow. We don’t let politics invade every facet of our lives.
I don’t believe Republican or Democrat are dirty words, but there are dirty politicians in both parties.
To put it in perspective I look at our past 2 Gubernatorial races between the sane two rich candidates. They self funded their campaigns (not taking state election funds): if a candidate is willing to spend $10 million dollars to chase a $200,000 job (and not take the salary), there must be an economic payback to self, family or friends.November 9, 2023 1:41 pm at 1:41 pm #2238215ubiquitinParticipant
the Ribono shel Olam is a Democrat
He is the Malbish arumim, someich noflim, zokef kifufim.
try to emulate the Ribono shel Olam, its a mitzva Deoraysa Veholachta bidrachav. Mah hu Rachum af ata rachumNovember 9, 2023 1:41 pm at 1:41 pm #2238218
“Nowadays, most politicians can’t think for themselves. They just blindly follow the party line….”
DaMoshe: I’d say thats generally true but even more so, the VOTERS in the frum communities who often mindlessly go out and vote whoever their Rebbe tells them to, without independently analyzing the issues and the candidate’s stated positions and record on those issues. Often, the ONLY objective is to “follow the money” (code words for who will try to funnel more $$ to certain mosdos).November 9, 2023 1:41 pm at 1:41 pm #2238236lakewhutParticipant
DaMoshe what about if he gets money for Lakewood and the county wants the schools to have better secular studies, namely teach kids about trans and same-gender issuesNovember 9, 2023 1:41 pm at 1:41 pm #2238241sechel83Participant
practically candidates can vote on issues however they want, dosent matter if he’s democrat or republican, like the democrat in illinois – frum yid – who voted against abortion and lost his position.
my point is (although i dont know much about politics) that if a democrat candidate is running for what frum yidden like. and what rabbonim approve, then who cares if he’s “called” democrat or republican.November 9, 2023 1:41 pm at 1:41 pm #2238335☕️coffee addictParticipant
Numerous quotes from Rabbi Miller זצ״ל have said how democrats are pro gay or the like, for which they haven’t changed their views (or even become more open about it)November 9, 2023 1:42 pm at 1:42 pm #2238355
Schnall ran as Dem for ONE reason only….$$$$.
The heads of the various mosdos in Lakewood finally realized that the Republicans in Trenton had very limited leverage in budgetary decisions. Tuition vouchers are clearly not popular with the Dems but Schnall is likely to have more success pushing for some form of limited financial assistance as a member of the majority party than as a Republican.November 9, 2023 3:02 pm at 3:02 pm #2238421commonsaychelParticipant
Is Caroline B Glick yet another example “Halomed me kol odom”November 9, 2023 4:12 pm at 4:12 pm #2238437smerelParticipant
>>>the Ribono shel Olam is a Democrat
He is the Malbish arumim, someich noflim, zokef kifufim.
He doesn’t do so by taking away money from unwilling third parties. He expects histadlus from those who aren’t on a very high level of bitochen. etc.November 9, 2023 6:56 pm at 6:56 pm #2238468MarxistParticipant
I have heard from chashuve people that Trump’s middos raos have a bad effect on society and they didn’t just blow it off like you do. Your hashkafas are off.November 9, 2023 11:15 pm at 11:15 pm #2238518
Marx, it’s a valid point, but liberals contribute far more to the moral decay of society with their policies.
It’s the lesser of two evils, especially since he has a soft spot for JewsNovember 10, 2023 11:53 am at 11:53 am #2238590rivsamParticipant
I agree with whomever said that HaShem doesn’t choose political parties, but rather the person. I would imagine He wants the leader with the midot and character to be an effective leader and someone that we would emulate.November 12, 2023 9:33 pm at 9:33 pm #2238989Reb EliezerParticipant
Avira, do people have their own moral standards, or does the government create the morals.
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