Does Hashem listen to a Prayer of a Goy?

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  • #617878
    Git Meshige
    Participant

    If they keep Yoshke out of it, and pray to Hashem directly, can their prayers be answered?

    #1157565
    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    “For My house will be called a house of prayer for all the nations.”

    The Wolf

    #1157566
    Avi K
    Participant

    The Noahide World Center has published a siddur for Bnei Noach called “Brit Olam”. If you are interested you can check it out on their website.

    #1157567
    Git Meshige
    Participant

    #2, that doesn’t prove if their prayers are actually answered.

    #1157568
    Avi K
    Participant

    GM, nobody’s prayers are guaranteed acceptance. Hashem is free to say “No”.

    #1157569
    blubluh
    Participant

    Avi K: Well, technically speaking, “No” is also an answer.

    But, generally speaking, why would one think that their prayers would not be answered?

    I think we too often get bogged down in a competitive view of the world (and what Chaza”l meant); it’s us versus them and only one team can emerge victorious (or, at all).

    Isn’t it among the roles of the Jews to influence the nations of the world to accept HaShem as the One, true Master? If so, it seems imperative that, among other things, the tefillos of the non-Jews be directed to Him, alone.

    I would think that if their tefillos are important, then a response of some sort is not an unreasonable expectation.

    #1157570
    Joseph
    Participant

    How about a prayer in a mosque to Allah or in a church to the Trinity or to Buddah?

    #1157571
    Health
    Participant

    Git Meshige -“If they keep Yoshke out of it, and pray to Hashem directly, can their prayers be answered?”

    Yes, they can be answered. As a matter of fact, their curses can be answered. Balak 23 #8. Only because Hashem didn’t get angry, otherwise

    Bulem could curse them during that time!

    #1157572
    👑RebYidd23
    Participant

    A prayer in a church is a prayer to avoda zara.

    #1157573
    Joseph
    Participant

    Though a prayer in a mosque is okay.

    #1157574
    👑RebYidd23
    Participant

    Islam is monotheistic, so it’s more complicated. Buddhists don’t really pray.

    #1157575
    Joseph
    Participant

    A Jew is permitted to enter a mosque and pray in it.

    #1157576
    Sam2
    Participant

    Joseph: That is incorrect. Horribly so. At the very least, it’s Chukas HaGoy. At worst, it’s a Tefillah in the Makom Avodah Zarah.

    #1157577
    Joseph
    Participant

    I’ll double check but my recollection was the Halacha is not only is it permissable to go into a mosque (unlike a church which is forbidden to enter) but that it is permitted pray there. Are you saying the Halacha is you can enter but not pray in a mosque?

    #1157578
    charliehall
    Participant

    “That is incorrect. Horribly so.”

    Wrong. Joseph is right on this one. In fact, Chabad of Parkchester, in the Bronx, holds its services in a mosque. (The two synagogues in the neighborhood both closed and were sold.)

    #1157579
    zahavasdad
    Participant

    Maarat Hamachpelah is a Mosque

    SO is the burial site in Hamden of Mordechai and Esther in Iran

    #1157580
    Avi K
    Participant

    RebYidd, there is a machloket between Rambam on the one hand and Rabbenu Tam and the Meiri on the other as to whether shituf is permitted to gentiles. If it is it might not be a problem for them to daven to Yoshke. For us though it is avoda zara. That includes davening to a tzaddik (Gesher HaChaim 2:25 – http://www.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=31172&st=&pgnum=196(?

    Joseph, regarding going into a mosque, google “going into a mosque” and you will find different opinions.

    Zahavasdad, that is a PA lie. The Maharat HaMachpela is a Jewish holy site with a separate area for Moslem prayers.

    #1157581
    zahavasdad
    Participant

    The burial sities for the Avoth are Jewish sites, but the current building on the site is a Mosque

    #1157582
    cherrybim
    Participant

    “In fact, Chabad of Parkchester, in the Bronx, holds its services in a mosque.”

    The mosque may be permitted, but to daven with Chabad many hold is assur.

    #1157583
    tiawd
    Participant

    Sam2: Since the original topic was the tefillah of a goy, I don’t think chukkos hagoyim is an issue. I’m pretty sure goyim have no such issur.

    #1157584
    tiawd
    Participant

    Also, I don’t think there’s any shittah that Islam is avodah zarah. The Rambam, R’ Saadya Ga’on, and all Arabic-speaking Rishonim all refer to Hashem by the name A-lah.

    #1157585
    Sam2
    Participant

    tiawd: I was replying to Joseph’s comment.

    And the Ran holds that it is A”Z.

    #1157586
    Avi K
    Participant

    Tiawd, the Ran (Sanhedrin 61b) holds that any religion other than Judaism is a”z. The Tzitz Eliezer (14:91; 18:47) paskens like him but Rav Ovadia and Rav Eliashiv were meikal.

    #1157587
    Joseph
    Participant

    Sam: Rambam and the consensus of most others hold it is not. Including Rav Ovadia Yosef, Yabia Omer 7, YD 12.

    #1157588
    Sam2
    Participant

    Avi K: Read it again. That’s not quite how the Ran says it.

    Joseph: I agree. He said no Rishonim hold that it’s A”Z. I said the Ran does. He’s a minority, but he’s still a Rishon.

    #1157589
    Avi K
    Participant

    Sam, read it again yourself. For your convenience I will post a link:

    http://www.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=14458&st=&pgnum=127 (?”? ????).

    #1157590
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Do they still bow to the “prophet”?

    #1157591
    👑RebYidd23
    Participant

    Christian beliefs range from monotheism to typical polytheism.

    #1157592
    Joseph
    Participant

    Mainstream Christian belief in the trinity isn’t monotheism. Very very few Christians truly have monotheistic beliefs.

    #1157593
    yytz
    Participant

    Hashem can do anything. So of course He could answer prayers even if they are not really directed to Him. Billions of people are rural and isolated and have never heard of Hashem. It’s up to Him whether to have mercy on them and respond to their misplaced prayers.

    #1157594
    apushatayid
    Participant

    mormons, “witnesses” and several smaller denominations including “jews for j” reject the trinity.

    #1157595
    Joseph
    Participant

    Neither Mormons nor the Witnesses are mainstream Christians. And they are cumulatively a tiny minority of Christians.

    #1157596
    Sam2
    Participant

    Joseph: Yes, I’m saying that it’s Muttar to enter a mosque but not Daven there.

    #1157597
    lesschumras
    Participant

    Joseph, you might be equating Catholicism w in the mainstream Christianity . Baptists , evangelicals might reject the Trinity as well. Their church’s have none of the statuary found in DC churches

    #1157598
    Quacky the duck
    Participant

    malachim alef perek ches posuk mem alef to mem gimmel and rashi kichul

    #1157599
    Avi K
    Participant

    Lesschumras (BTW, it is “fewer chumrot” as each chumra is important by itself), the vast majority of Protestants accept Trinitarianism. Notable exceptions are the various Unitarian denominations, which do not consider Yoshke to be more than a great teacher or prophet. Even some of those smaller denominations that do not are not purely monotheistic and/or accept Yoske as their god.

    #1157600
    gettingold
    Member

    I am new here.

    There seems to be evidence that during the shmad in southern Spain, the Rambam’s family had to attend the mosque every Friday (until they left, they were given a year to leave) under the threat of being killed otherwise.

    This might explain why the Rambam wrote a letter to his son when he arrived in Akko, saying “nitzalti min hashmad”.

    This would be consistent with what the Rambam wrote about “Ya’avor ve’al yehareig” if it isn’t avoda zara.

    #1157601
    Avi K
    Participant

    Gettingholld, I would say the opposite. Because they did not consider it a”z they attended. Rambam’s statement could either mean that they attended but did not pray or that they got out of attending. BTW, Rav Kook says that a shochet can say “Allh hu akbar” (Gd is great) when shechting for Moslems, as they demanded during one period.

    #1157602
    Sam2
    Participant

    Avi K: They don’t say “Allah hu akbar” during slaughtering. They say “Bismallah” (in the name of God).

    #1157603
    Avi K
    Participant

    Sam, at that time there was a chumra to say ah”a. At least that is what the teshuva says to the best of my recollection. Bli neder I will look it up when I have time.

    #1157604
    gettingold
    Member

    Avi

    it is clear that he felt that it wasnt avoda zara. hence “yaavor v’a; yehareg”.

    exactly what he meant when he said nitzalti min hashmad, I am not sure.

    #1157605
    Joseph
    Participant

    It would be chukas hagoy to say Allahu Akbar before doing shechita.

    http://hebrewbooks.org/pagefeed/hebrewbooks_org_35269_81.pdf

    #1157606
    Sam2
    Participant

    Joseph: Did you read your own source that you quoted? He’s against it Lechatchilah and says try to avoid it, but Bedieved it’s Muttar.

    #1157607
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    ?) ?? ?????? ??????? ???? ?????? ?????? ????? ?? ?? ????? ?????????? ???? ??????? ??? ?? ???? ??? ????? ?????? ??? ?? ???? ??? ??? ?????? ???? ?? ????? ?????? ????”? ??? ??? ????? ?? ?????? ????? ???? ????? ??? ??? ??? ?”? ???? ??????? ????? ????? ??? ??????? ??? ??? ????? ???? ?? ???? ?????? ????? ?? ??? ???? ????? ??????? ????? ??? ???? ????? ??? ?? ???? ???? ??? ?????? ????? ??? ?? ????? ????? ???? ???????

    He says it resembles chukas hagoy. He does not say it actually is (otherwise it would not even be muttar b’sha’as had’chak).

    Sam is correct.

    #1157608
    charliehall
    Participant

    “the Ran (Sanhedrin 61b) holds that any religion other than Judaism is a”z.”

    Prof. Marc Shapiro has proven that that Ran was not by the Ran. Which leaves us with no Rishon who thought that Islam is a”z.

    “Allah” is simply the Arabic word for God. Arabic-speaking Christians use that word as well.

    #1157609
    Avi K
    Participant

    ??”? ??? ??? (?????? ???? ???) ?’ ?

    ?”? ????? “???? ????” ?”? ????? ?????????, ????? ???? ?????, ???’ ???? ?????, ??? ??????? ????’ ??? ????? ???? ????? ?? ???. – ?”? ?????? ????? ????? ?????? ??? ?????? ??”?, ????”? ???? ??”? ??? ????, ???? ???? ??. ??? ?? ????, ????? ??????? ???? ?????? ???? ????, ??? ?”? ????”? ??? ???, ????? ????, ?? ???? ???? ???? ??? ??? ?????. – ?”? ?????? ????? ?”? ??, ??? ????? ????”? ??? ?????? ????? ??? ?? ????? ??”?. ??? ??? ??? ???? ????, ???? ???? ????? ?? ?? ??”? ??? ????? ???? ?????. ?? ?? ?”? ???”? ?? ????? ??? ?????? ?? ????’ ???? ???? ??? ????? ???”?. – ????”? ???? ?????? ???? ???? ??? ???? ?????, ?? ????? ?? ?????? ??????? ?????.

    #1157610
    Avi K
    Participant

    Charlie, who is this professor and what is his proof? The Tzitz eliezer accepts it and those poskim who are meikal do not seem to dispute that the Ran wrote it. They simply hold like Rambam.

    #1157611
    Sam2
    Participant

    DY: Ironically enough, the Simlah Chadashah seems to be slightly misinformed about the issue here. (He also has the misconception that they say Allahu Akbar and not Bismillah, which I find interesting, but that’s a side point.) He thinks it’s better to say it before the Brachah to avoid a Hefsek. But that idea isn’t relevant. The Muslims have held for many centuries (at least back into the 1400s, maybe earlier) that the Brachah that we make before Shechitah counts as praising God’s name while slaughtering. So they think you don’t have to say Bismillah when Shechting the first animal. The problem (for them, not us) is that we hold that one Brachah is Poter many Shechitos. They hold that Bismillah must be said over each and every animal. So the only time the case the Simlah Chadashah is dealing with comes up is when Shechting multiple animals and in between each Shechitah after the first.

    #1157612
    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    Well, if Prof. Marc Shapiro has decided something, then it’s definitely true.

    Daas torah, you know.

    #1157613
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Popa, what got into you? Since when is Marc Shapiro daas Torah? Anyhow, Charlie doesn’t believe in daas Torah, so what’s your point?

    Anyhow, even if Marc Shapiro was right, the Ran on Sanhedrin is still a Rishon.

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