Does Israel need a 3 State Solution

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  • #1757003

    lakewhut
    Participant

    The first wave of ashkenazim who moved to E”Y in the 1800s – the Talmidei HaGr”a e.g. – were holy Jews who sacrificed everything to move to escape the programs and corrupt maskilim. When Herz gathered his Zionist Congress they weren’t interested in even moving to EY. The socialist left Jews thought they’d have their Bund in poland and of her parts of Europe, forever. German Jews thought they’d stay in Germany. Once these frei Jews saw that there is something building, they jumped on the bandwagon and started upsetting Arabs and instituting communist kibbutzim. The chareidi Jews for the most part had no interest in a traif government. But, the Zionists were able to win a war in 1948 and declared a government. Charedi Jews were forced under their rule and now their sons and daughters are forced to serve in this government. C
    Families if charedi jews who came there first should be given their own autonomous territory, similar to that Native Americans have.

    #1757600

    Grey matter
    Participant

    That is an interesting proposal. Do you think charedi aboriginals would move to an area somewhere that is inhabited only by other charedi aboriginals. Native Americans weren’t allowed to take Manhattan back exactly.

    #1757634

    akuperma
    Participant

    1, The first wave of Ashkenazim moved in the same time as the first wave of Sefardim, as soon as the Muslims defeated the Crusaders, and allowed Yidden to move back into Eretz Yisrael (which thanks to the Crusaders had become Judenrein for the first time).

    2. The Hareidim were quite content to live under Muslim rule, and indeed the early zionists didn’t object to the Ottomans. My guess is if the Hareidim become a majority of the non-Palestinian population (I didn’t say “Jewish” since an increasing number of Israeli “Jews” are actually goyim), they will cut a deal to end the war. Before this happens, probaby by the end of the 21st century, the zionists will probably make an effort toget rid of the hareidim, one way or another.

    #1757669

    Redleg
    Participant

    The Talmidei Ha’Gra are not a good example. They were quite few in number (less than 100), they attempted to be self-supporting by farming and other labor and they relied on funds from abroad to purchase land.
    The idea of an independent Chareidi state is risible. With a net minus economy, no means of defense and the impossibility of creating and sustaining a coherent government, such a state would collapse under its own weight in two years.

    #1757678

    Joseph
    Participant

    The Brisker R”Y said circumstances imposed by the Israeli government upon Bnei Torah living in Eretz Yisroel may compel us to move out to chutz l’aaretz to continue our Torah life.

    #1757691

    MalachOfCholent
    Participant

    akuperma- the chareidim were not quite comfortable living under arab rule,
    look up your history fact, the muslims made them a hard hard life, they were only allowed to live in the old city part pf yerushalaim, had very limited job options, were subject to many arab theives at any time of the day, decrees at will of the ruler, many sicknesses that came from the hunger, poverty and limited space with little options of keeping hygiene, and more.
    not so sure what went on outside of yerushalaim like tveria and tzfas where a lot of chareidim lived too, but i do clearly remember learning about yerushalaim’s state, they were not welcomed with open arms and if not for jews helping from chutz la’aretz they would not survive.
    and what about the ottomans taking every young man to their wars?
    of course when the british came and later the zionist things got worse as jews are always blamed for the trouble accuring but it wasn’t very great and happy before.

    #1757716

    MalachOfCholent
    Participant

    Joseph- the Briskers have a very different view on the government than most chareidim, while most chareidim even if don’t agree with the zionists are doing theiur best to live their way under the present government, fighting in the government for whaty we believe they don’t want to be involved and if not for the other chareidim fighting for chareidy rights in israel they really would have had to leave a long time ago,

    what would happen to briskers if they leave? go to america and escape there because the threats to chinuch? escape to europe and get stuck w/ shechita bans? it’s not simple living like a chareidi jew anywhere, one needs to learn to live and fight without lowering their standarts wherever they are.

    #1757910

    sifsei chachamim
    Participant

    Without getting involved in the details of your suggestion, are you aware that a large group of students of the Maggid of Mezrich, and their students, moved to Eretz yisrael in the 1780s?

    #1757872

    takahmamash
    Participant

    “The Brisker R”Y said circumstances imposed by the Israeli government upon Bnei Torah living in Eretz Yisroel may compel us to move out to chutz l’aaretz to continue our Torah life.”

    That would be impossible, as other civilized countries do not put up with rioting in the streets the way the Israeli government does.

    #1757945

    MalachOfCholent
    Participant

    takahmamash- Uh i think your confusing the groups here a little, let me clarify- Briskers DO NOT riot in the streets. (period. no buts.)
    those rioting are affiliated with the Peleg who follow R Aurbach ztz”l it was taken off from a regular litvish and yerushalmi majority, the Briskers were not involved in the yeshiva where the machlokes started and branched off between Rav Aurbach and Rav Shteinman.

    #1757995

    ☕️coffee addict
    Participant

    “That would be impossible, as other civilized countries do not put up with rioting in the streets the way the Israeli government does.“

    You mean black lives matter and occupy Wall Street we’re dealt more harsh then what Israel does

    I hardly doubt it

    #1758001

    yeshivishrockstar2
    Participant

    “Families if charedi jews who came there first should be given their own autonomous territory, ”

    And how long would that territory last exactly? I give it a year tops.

    #1758002

    yeshivishrockstar2
    Participant

    “The Brisker R”Y said circumstances imposed by the Israeli government upon Bnei Torah living in Eretz Yisroel may compel us to move out to chutz l’aaretz to continue our Torah life.”

    He never said it.

    #1757864

    Avi K
    Participant

    1.The talmidim of the Gra came to pave the way for Mashiach. This was before the Haskala.
    2. It is a Torah obligation to serve in the IDF (Rambam Hilchot Melachim 5:1 and Ramban Halachot that Rambam “Forgot” 4).
    3. I feel sorry for those who are still in denial after over seventy years of the Geula marching forward.

    #1758114

    Avi K
    Participant

    Takahmamash, they could move to Fort Surrender, NY.

    #1758220

    Neville ChaimBerlin
    Participant

    Sounds like you’re talking about a Chareidi state and a Zionist state. That’s only 2 states. Why does the title read “3 state solution?”

    #1758257

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    A territory of only learners could not survive. Some people would need to work, Some to be garbage collectors, Policeman utility workers, Farmers. Without some sort of income it would collpase

    #1759156

    lakewhut
    Participant

    NCB it’s a play on words. I don’t believe in a state for arabs. Frum Jews who came before the Zionist establishment were drawn into war and forced under their rule. They Should also be considered in a peace plan.
    Zahavas Dad if you ask through Jerusalem, you’ll see many different stores owned by chareidi people, lawyers, beautiful property developed by Charedim e.g.
    RedLeg Talmidei hagra are THE example. They are the perushim. They deserve special status. Secular Israelis in the early 1900s didn’t even care to develop Jerusalem.

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