Home › Forums › Decaffeinated Coffee › Does it really matter why kids go off the derech?
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December 28, 2011 2:31 pm at 2:31 pm #601350soliekMember
Ask ten people that question and you will get twenty different answers. Because Yeshivos are too strict in their acceptance policies; because school curricula are disproportionately difficult; because parents pressure their kids unduly; because we are too lax with our standards in Mitzvos; because schools do not teach Hashkafa properly; because mental illness and abuse are overlooked; the reasons continue ad infinitum.
December 28, 2011 4:57 pm at 4:57 pm #842127aries2756Participantsoliek +1
December 28, 2011 5:25 pm at 5:25 pm #842128☕ DaasYochid ☕ParticipantIn answer to your question, yes it does matter, not so much because of the past, but for the future.
Each generation has had it’s problems; you’re right about that, but the nisyonos have changed. The ta’vah for avodah zara is gone, so that battle has changed. The challenge presented by the haskalah has all but disappeared, as well. Today’s youth are, for the most part, confronted with a different set of chalenges, not the least of which are dealing with today’s technology and the decadence it allows, the overall moral decline of society and its infiltration into our communities, and the high stress level of today’s fast paced, hectic world.
How to deal with these problems is essential to keep our children in the fold, and identifying causes for youth leaving the path of Torah is an important key.
In your role as mentor to youth at (or beyond) risk, it is indeed more important to deal with the individual. It’s also vital to deal with our still frum youths as individuals, but our society’s norms are generally dictated by what’s best in general.
It is how to structure these general norms and policies which are the subject of much discussion and debate. Don’t belittle it just because your personal tafkid is, rightfully, focused elsewhere.
December 28, 2011 5:35 pm at 5:35 pm #842129☕ DaasYochid ☕ParticipantAries, I’m surprised (maybe confused is a better word).
On this forum, (and probably in real life as well) you’ve been at the forefront in discussing and debating the problems underlying OTD. In fact, on a current thread, you listed many reasons. Why do you agree with soliek now that it’s all beside the point?
When I wrote my previous comment, I was actually defending the usefulness of discussions such as the ones you often engage in!
December 28, 2011 5:39 pm at 5:39 pm #842130aries2756ParticipantSoleik, if the OTD individual wants to talk about the why’s that is up to them. It is the job of the caring individual to just reach out to them, show them that the Frum people do care about them, can and are truly frum, honest, follow the Torah, are not hypocritical, can be relied on and counted on, etc. When you make contact with them, you have to be a good role model and be the best Jew you can be. That shows that individual that we all have bechira and many of us make mistakes but one should not label ALL of us in the same manner, and that one should look at the ones that do it right rather than the ones that do it wrong.
December 28, 2011 5:40 pm at 5:40 pm #842131soliekMemberDaasYochid: its a fair point, but the way i see it, and the point i was making, is that while we do indeed have to be aware of all the potential reasons and possible causes, to try and define why people go off the derech is pointless. in other words, you should be ready for whatever you may encounter but should not try and focus on one over the other as a cause because that would simply cause you to overlook the hundreds of others who are off the derech for a thousand other reasons.
for example, when someone blames rebbeim for kids going off the derech, whether its true or not, they are excluding those who go off the derech because their parents abuse them etc…so instead of focusing on and trying to find the definitive answer to why kids go off the derech, one should instead prepare himself for whatever he may see or hear from people he is trying to help, because the possibilities are limitless.
December 28, 2011 6:20 pm at 6:20 pm #842132TheGoqParticipantThe Reason they go off the derech matters to them to them it is valid and perhaps if the members of their families were to discuss the reasons they could start them on the path back to frumkeit.
December 28, 2011 6:28 pm at 6:28 pm #842133soliekMemberGoq: well obviously and i made that point.
December 28, 2011 6:38 pm at 6:38 pm #842134adamsParticipantsure it matters for those in that mess. I have friends who have kids who have been kicked out of Yeshiva for smoking Cannabis, and for engaging in relations with opposite sex. now these 2 are one is completly otd and the other is just about. You can see them in SHule twice a year.
The reasons are certainly important to help others mainly.
How to get them back to Yiddishkeit is a different topic, you should help others to prevent. Even though each family dynamic is different.
December 28, 2011 6:40 pm at 6:40 pm #842136TheGoqParticipantSoliek i wouldn’t know i didn’t read your entire post i just read the title and reacted to that.
December 28, 2011 7:01 pm at 7:01 pm #842137cherrybimParticipantWhy did Eisav go off the derech. Guess what? No reason; that’s the way he was born. People are born with different personalities, character traits, and degrees of yetzer hara strengths; and the ability to overcome their yetzer hara.
December 28, 2011 7:13 pm at 7:13 pm #842138aries2756ParticipantDY, the reasons they go off the derech doesn’t matter when you are working with the kids themselves unless they want to discuss it with you. The reasons they go off the derech is important for the General Olam so that WE can work on ways to correct it.
The reason you broke your leg is not as important to your physical therapist as is the effort you make or the connection you make with that person in order to heal. The reason you broke your leg is important for the accident prevention group so that they can help others not to do what you did.
December 28, 2011 7:22 pm at 7:22 pm #842139soliekMember“Soliek i wouldn’t know i didn’t read your entire post i just read the title and reacted to that.”
really?!
i get the feeling that adams didnt read my post either…
and aries, there are far fewer reasons why a person might break a leg than why they might go off the derech
December 28, 2011 8:17 pm at 8:17 pm #842140Raphael KaufmanMemberThe issue isn’t why kids go OTD, it’s why did this particular kid go OTD. However many reasons there may be for going OTD, the particular reason certainly matters to the individual OTD. And that particular reason has to be dealt with in that particular kiruv effort.
December 28, 2011 8:34 pm at 8:34 pm #842141soliekMember“The issue isn’t why kids go OTD, it’s why did this particular kid go OTD.”
bingo
December 28, 2011 8:42 pm at 8:42 pm #842142JotharMemberEveryone is an individual.
December 28, 2011 9:10 pm at 9:10 pm #842143☕ DaasYochid ☕ParticipantAries,
DY… The reasons they go off the derech is important for the General Olam so that WE can work on ways to correct it.
Yes, that was my point, I just didn’t see that perspective in soliek’s otherwise meaningful post.
December 28, 2011 9:47 pm at 9:47 pm #842144soliekMemberwell i was going at it more from the kiruv rechokim POV rather than the kiruv krovim POV
December 28, 2011 10:06 pm at 10:06 pm #842145always runs with scissors fastParticipantI read the OP’s title and started laughing. Only Soliek would ask “does it really matter?”. ..LOL!
December 28, 2011 10:10 pm at 10:10 pm #842146☕ DaasYochid ☕Participantwell i was going at it more from the kiruv rechokim POV rather than the kiruv krovim POV
Yes, but even if it only matters from one perspective, it still matters.
Your point regarding those who went off already, though, is very salient. At that point, there’s no reason to point fingers, it’s vital to show love.
December 29, 2011 1:59 am at 1:59 am #842147soliekMember“I read the OP’s title and started laughing. Only Soliek would ask “does it really matter?”. ..LOL!”
perhaps it was a poor choice of words lol but it had the desired effect 😛
December 29, 2011 2:33 am at 2:33 am #842148always runs with scissors fastParticipantwithout going to read this whole thread, could you just tell me what did you mean by that? Becuse what comes to mind , for me, is that IT DOES matter because then we can figure out prevention/intervention.
EVen fire fighters have to ask themselves how did this fire start.
December 29, 2011 2:33 am at 2:33 am #842149yitayningwutParticipantIf there is a problem that you care to fix, you try to find the root of the problem. The answer to the OP’s question, “does it really matter?” is – to someone who cares, yes.
Besides, who cares if everyone has their own opinion which to them is the one and only reason why kids go off? Let each person with an opinion work on whatever it is they believe the cause to be, and maybe then things will change!
December 29, 2011 2:38 am at 2:38 am #842150soliekMember“without going to read this whole thread, could you just tell me what did you mean by that?”
absolutely not
yitayningwut: that can be counter-productive
December 29, 2011 2:48 am at 2:48 am #842151yitayningwutParticipantOh please. Shutting up the free exchange of ideas is way more counterproductive.
December 29, 2011 5:01 am at 5:01 am #842152soliekMemberim not saying that one cant voice his opinion, but to get hung up on one exclusive of any other reasons IS counterproductive
December 29, 2011 5:15 am at 5:15 am #842153always runs with scissors fastParticipanti usually only read my posts. LOL
December 29, 2011 4:06 pm at 4:06 pm #842154aries2756ParticipantThe point here is, if you want to help you can’t walk over to a child and say “what’s your story?”. If you want to help, you go over to a child and say “I’m here, how can I help you?”. That is the attitude YOU have to bring to the table. If s/he connects with you their story will eventually come out piece by piece and you will have the opportunity to help them with making sense of it, or dealing with it, whatever the case may be. It is not important to know why they went OTD before approaching them. That is not necessary in order to help them.
December 29, 2011 6:10 pm at 6:10 pm #842155mytakeMembersoliek
I agree with you. I enjoy reading ur thoughts on OTD kids, btw. Keep em coming.
December 29, 2011 7:02 pm at 7:02 pm #842156soliekMemberi have a blog where i post my thoughts about OTD and kiruv and adiction and stuff…idk if the mods would allow me to post a link…
December 29, 2011 7:37 pm at 7:37 pm #842157yitayningwutParticipantKnowing why kids go off is not only advantageous for one who wants to help the kids, but also for one who wants to prevent it.
Therefore, if I believe that kids go off because their parents are obnoxious, and as such I make an extra effort to break any obnoxious habits I may have, and Yankel Shmerel believes that kids go off because there is too much pressure, so he eases up on the pressure, and Hentcha Genendel believes that kids go off because they aren’t taught enough about certain things, so she teaches her kids these things, and so on, what’s to lose?
My point is that it’s worth everyone spouting their boich svaros because while it might not help much in the quest of bringing people back, it does have an impact on the way people think, and causes them to think more about their behavior in the future, thus avoiding the issue to begin with.
December 29, 2011 7:44 pm at 7:44 pm #842158☕ DaasYochid ☕ParticipantYou can post some content specific to your blog, and if someone Googles it, it will come up.
December 29, 2011 8:09 pm at 8:09 pm #842159soliekMember“My point is that it’s worth everyone spouting their boich svaros because while it might not help much in the quest of bringing people back, it does have an impact on the way people think, and causes them to think more about their behavior in the future, thus avoiding the issue to begin with.”
for people who take the time to actually consider what is being said, absolutely. when i see things people post, stories of how and why people go of the derech, i file it away for future reference so in the event that i ever happen across someone who is off the derech or messed for that reason i will be properly equipped to handle it.
the main thing i was addressing were threads like that other OTD thread in the CR where the OP sounds like that IS the definitive reason why kids go off the derech (please leave that discussion for that thread). but its not just that user, we get so many threads here about problems in the community and abuse and learning disability etc etc etc being THE reason why kids are going off the derech…i dont think the people writing those threads take the time to consider any other possibilities.
if you were talking to them in real life you would probably point that out to them and they would say “of course i know that its not the reason” but then continue vehemently telling you exactly why their reason is the reason.
so what i said in my OP is pashut, or should be, and people know it, but they dont remember it when they need to. im lightyears from the holy ramchal, but its kind of like what he says in his akdama about being something that people know but havent internalized. the idea that it is not important to pin down THE reason, rather be ready for ANY reason is a very important idea and one that we all should be constantly aware of because thats how you help people. not by trying to shoehorn them into your idea of what they must be, but by being able to adapt to their situation and accommodate their needs.
December 29, 2011 11:59 pm at 11:59 pm #842160yitayningwutParticipantAnd my point is – who cares?
So what if I think this is THE reason and he thinks that is THE reason and she thinks that is THE reason? Most of us in our everyday lives are not in the helping-kids-at-risk business anyway. If someone opines that a certain fault is the cause, then they will go and fix that in their own life. Eventually people will start to be mashpia on each other because each person will see the other working on a specific area, and the world will naturally become a better place.
So who cares? Let people have opinions. It won’t make things worse.
December 30, 2011 12:40 am at 12:40 am #842161cinderellaParticipant“the main thing i was addressing were threads like that other OTD thread in the CR where the OP sounds like that IS the definitive reason why kids go off the derech…”
That really bothers me as well, but I’m with yitayningwut on this one.
December 30, 2011 1:15 am at 1:15 am #842162soliekMemberno but it does. misconceptions are very dangerous. for example your average psychology student learns something in class and attributes every behaviour as stemming from one specific source rather than allowing for several possibilities. for example if someone learns that haughtiness stems from lo self esteem, every person they meet who is haughty will be perceived as having low self esteem whether or not its true.
preconception is a dangerous thing because if you go into a situation with preconceptions and you happen to be wrong, you may not see it because of your preconceptions. so lets say you’ve settled on school curriculum being too hard and driving kids off the derech, you may miss the boat with a kid who drops out and goes off the derech because he has family issues, or hes brilliant but lazy.
December 30, 2011 1:38 am at 1:38 am #842163cinderellaParticipantI don’t think people look at it as a black and white thing. You would have to be stupid to do that. But no one can pinpoint the exact cause of kids going off the derech. So there is nothing they can know that will prevent kids from going off.
December 30, 2011 2:16 am at 2:16 am #842164yitayningwutParticipantPeople will have preconceptions regardless of whether or not they share them. All sharing them does is to allow a discussion to ensue, which I think causes more benefit than harm.
December 30, 2011 3:09 am at 3:09 am #842165soliekMemberim just telling you what i see here, and what i see here (and many other places too btw) are people with preconceptions.
yitayningwut: we’re talking at each other. my post is mitzad the people talking, not the people listening. to someone listening, they should file it away as a possibility they might encounter and nothing more. so the discussion i suppose can be productive in that regard. however, for the people spouting this rubbish, they should be aware that they are hurting their chances of helping people by having such preconceptions.
unless your problem is the following: if people stop having preconceptions how will there ever be discussion. which is of course a ridiculous way of thinking. there is always something to discuss. i can sit here and discuss different cases ive seen, but i would never state that the cause of OTD is one reason or another. and yet i talk plenty about OTD…wonder of wonders, isnt it?
January 8, 2012 10:47 pm at 10:47 pm #842166njsavtaMemberTwo of my five are off the derech; it is a 24/7 nightmare. Both of these kids were oppositional from the start, so the fact that they reject halacha, with all its rules, is understandable … kinda. But some of the people who should have been able to avert the problem only made it worse: Rabbis who didn’t take their questions seriously. Principals who lied. Teachers who told the one with LD (that was especially pronounced in Hebrew) that he was stupid.
In case we aren’t suffering enough and guilting ourselves enough, we are subjected to the pervasive mindset that if the kid is OTD, it’s the parents’ fault. Period.
They’re 19 and 25 now, and not very open to finding a way back in. Any ideas would be greatly appreciated.
January 9, 2012 7:44 am at 7:44 am #842167HealthParticipantnjsavta -Sorry to hear. I can relate, but mine have nothing to do with the school system (or very little).
But I wonder why do Frum people have a double standard? The Freye/BT person/kid they tell -whatever Mitzva you do is better than none. The FFB person/kid they tell whatever you do Is Not good enough. Since this is what they do -I’m really not surprised that we have so many going OTD!
January 9, 2012 3:34 pm at 3:34 pm #842168soliekMemberoh i didnt think the question would get the proper attention on this thread so i made a new thread for it
http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/kiruv-advice-needed
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